cl,<BR>my husband is a serial cheater too. I've been calling him a sex addict, but I like serial cheater much better.... I found this out in Aug. So we are about 9 months into recovery. He had 14 one night stands, 2 before we married, we have been married for 12 years. Our recovery is going very well. I feel very strong although I'm still in a great deal of pain. My H is doing everything 'right'. It is still frightening and I'm not ready to be 'excited or happy' about the future. We have 2 great kids under 12, which is a huge reason for me to stay. He has become a wonderful father. Boy am I sugar coating this or what???? Is someone going to wake me up one day by smacking me in the head for being so stupid? Can it really be overcome??<P>Believing in the Miracles of God

hi broken,<BR>I like serial cheater better than sex addict too. And 'slut' is a bit disrectful.....(and serial cheater is not?!) <BR>Did he remember all of the OWs? Alcohol involved? Counseling? What help have you had? What made him stop? Family history of infidelity? Here I am asking more than I am answering! <BR>Yes, it can be overcome. I believe it can be though many will disagree. In the past 2+ yrs I have heard all sorts of things from professionals. One told me it was a male thing-forget abt it. Another extreme might have been when a counselor told me he would never be able to stop the lusting, and unlikely to be able to stop the screwing around. <BR>MB is a great place with a philosophy that works for those of us that deal with these serial cheaters. I find many differences in the recovery process for those with spouses involved in emotional affairs. The basics remain the same to build the marriage into something that cannot be touched by a third party. <BR>It is very hard to decide if you want to stay and work on things or end the marriage. I sat on that fence so long, the slivers were festering! Not a good place to be. I will admit I am still not 100% comfortable with the marriage-I know part of it is fear. If I give my whole heart again, what will be left if he breaks it again? But that leaves me not totally fulfilled too! <BR>More tomorrow, need some sleep.<BR>Aloha, cl

I'd like to jump in here. Thanks BrokenDreamsX for posting to cl. Yes we can sure use your experience cl. It's very good to hear from someone farther down the road from this.<P>My W is what you guys call a "serial cheater" too. She had 5 "affairs" in the past 4 years 2 one-night stands, 2 longer relationships, and one cyber/porno chat that she was planning to meet when I caught her. She also had some of the other behaviors associated with sexual addiction.<P>There is a family history of infidellity, and also my W has had several addictions. She was treated for drugs twice, and has shown obsessive spending, and eating/ dieting too. When this came out we were both devastated and we struggled terribly for 5 months till she finally confessed the complete truth, and we got her into a treatment center. She stayed in for 5 weeks, and it was a big help for both of us.<P>One thing I can say about my W at least. Once she fully admitted the truth, there was no more blaming, no more excuses, and certainly no desire to contact the OM. Though her behavior was more than anyone should have to face, her remorse, and willingness to change is stronger, maybe, than most spouses I read about on the board. As a result, when we're not suffering through a wave of hurt feelings, our recovery is great. We suffer no real residual problems from the affairs - my W dropped them like a rock. <P>I'm regaining trust for my W rapidly, as she wants to be accountable for her time. Oh, I should mention I'm a recovering addict myself, been drug-free for a long time, and I think it means I hurt real bad, but I can forgive. I've had to learn to forgive to recover myself.<P>Keep sharing your experience with us cl (and brokendreamx too). There are more and more people coming to the board who deal with the issue of "serial cheating", or addiction, combined with cheating. I think some of the MB principles do not work with addicts, too much like "enabling", but once the recovery begins the Harley plan is perfect. I've sometimes struggled with the differences I see between people who come here because of a "love affair", and those whose affairs are more a sign of addiction. I'm so glad there are more people who might share my perspective.<BR>David

He remembers all OW. Alcohol was involved. We are in counseling. We are both happy with our counselor. His father was an adulterer, but we don't know much about him. He left his 3 kids when my H was a few weeks old. Step dad was an alcoholic. sexual, physical, and mental abuse as a child.<BR>I discovered an e-mail from one of his ladies..... He was out of state at the time. I called him and told him what a sorry sob and a stupid b%&()( I thought he was. That woke him up. He had a 10 hour drive home and I told him to go to his buddy's house and not to come here. He could barely function to even pack and get out of there.<BR>If I would not have discovered that e-mail, I would never have known any of this. Somehow I intuitively knew there was more than just this one lady and I wrote him a letter expressing my commitment to the marriage. I told him that there was no way I could 'fight' for our marriage if I didn't know what I was dealing with. Slowly over a period of a month the secrets came out a few at a time. They like to pull the scab off your wound and make you bleed don't they?<BR>He knows I'm out of here if it happens again. It is not a threat just fact. Fortunately I can financially support myself with no problems.<BR>I am sitting on the fence. I also don't feel I can give my whole heart. Who wants to give the best of themselves to someone who has been cheating on them since we were 19 and 21?? <BR>He travels alot for long periods of time at work. I'm not worried now but what about 4/5 years from now. That was his pattern to have a one night stand and then be faithful for several years. This last 2 years he was getting much worse though. He was cheating more often, unable to sleep.<BR>He has blamed me over the years for all that has gone wrong in his life although he never discussed that with me, he kept it all inside. He knows that he was just justifying and rationalizing his behavior.<BR>I've been able to not take his adultery personally although the ones that I thought were 'friends' hurt. I know it is not about me and it is not about sex. It is still fuzzy though to know what exactly it was all about for him.... I've read many books on the subject. Several from Carnes.<BR>From educating myself, I can understand how this could happen. Only rarely do I have pity parties and ask why it had to happen to me.... It seems from my reading that most spouse are co-dependent. For myself, I do not believe that is the case. In fact there are 2 ladies here locally in which I want their spouses to be informed. I'm not jealous, angry, or vindictive. I just have so much empathy for their spouse. I can see myself in them and know that I would want to know. I also feel it is vital for my H to feel the full ramification of his actions. I can't 'own' the consequences for actions he chose. That is all on him and I don't want him to be a coward and run from it.<BR>I also have to admit that there are moments when I would like to retaliate. He is my only lover and it distresses me that I have not been his only. I have too much self respect though to do that. Plus I would not risk being raped, or getting an STD! Imagine that, a person who loves life enough that they wouldn't risk an STD for sex......<BR>He has come to Christ and I do believe that all things are possible through Christ.

Good Morning Broken and David,<BR>It sounds crazy, but nice to know there are others dealing with some of the same issues. I do wish no one had to!<BR>David, your wife was an inpatient for 5 wks for all the addictions? Obessive compulsive? <BR>I too struggle with some apparent enabling aspects of mb. I know there are some here that strictly abide by all the prinicples and I admire them for it. I am not one of those, nor do I think all work with a serial cheater. For instance, one cannot plan a and let things run the course! Isnt that what we were unknowingly doing? <BR>Most infidelity 'experts' state that affairs happen because something is missing at home-the ENs are not being met. This is a bit different for serial cheaters, and it took me quite awhile to accept the differences. Ya know, maybe if I could morph into someone else he would not have cheated? <BR>I am very happy to read that your wife is accepting responsiblity and is being accountable. That is a HUGE step. She had good counseling. <BR>Have you read Carnes books? They were helpful for me.<BR>Broken, my oh my! We have a lot in common. I too received info over a long period of time. In fact just a couple mos ago he remembered another OW name. I too am not going to tolerate this in my marriage and h knows he is gone if it happens even once. I did not buy into the part of the sexual recovery program that gives them room for slipups! I am not codependent, and can support self and family.<BR>Trust is a big issue. I certainly have no reason to trust him and it is hard because he travels for mos at a time. He had ample opportunity to screw around without me knowing for 20+ yrs, so the same could be happening as I write this. <BR>Do I trust him? Yes and no. I trust that he is very clear on where I stand. I trust that he knows right from wrong. I trust when he states he is in control of his problem. I dont trust he will tell me if things get out of hand while he is away. Part of that is my own fault for making my boundaries so clear. A double edged sword. <BR>We have agreed to many of the mb principles; poja, rule of honesty, etc, but the bottom line is that if he wants to continue, he has the opportunity. It is really all up to him. <BR>Similarities of serial cheaters-substances are usually involved (alocohol 100% of the time for my h), family history (brother, sisters, father, etc), opportunity (traveling), other psych issues like OC, bipolar, depression. <BR>Hang in there. It does get better, it does get easier with every passing day. aloha, cl

cl,<BR>Yes, we've read Carnes's books. The treatment Center my W was in was for sexual addiction, and is very similar to Dr Carnes center in Arizona. We both had been through treatment for drug addiction 14 years ago. I've stayed clean since then, my W unfortunately, has struggled with various behaviors including a relapse onto drugs 4 years ago that, I think, triggered the sexual acting out. <BR>David

cl,<BR>Did you talk to your children about your H's addiction? We plan to speak to our children, but are not sure at what age. His mom, his sister, and my mom know about his addiction. They have been supportive of both of us. They support my decision to stay or to leave. Sadly we will have to accept that many serial cheaters may repeat their adultery. I can accept that. I would like him to be honest enough to tell me so I can hit the road. I believe I could kill him if he exposes me to STD's again. <BR>Davidb, keep me posted on your situation. You and your wife will be in my prayers. We have a tough road and hard work ahead of us, I hope they are worth it. <BR>I must admit I feel so much less alone.....

HI, i thought i posted here this am...but post is gone!<BR>Rats, it was well thought out!!<BR>Yes, my kids know about the problems. <BR>The older son and I were used to talking about sex issues. When he was abt 16 he was too sexually active and did not treat females well. He would get sex, then dump them. This was a huge issue and we had a lot of discussions abt it. He is doing great now and had a couple relationships of over a yr. Course this was before I knew h had a problem.<BR>When discovered the older one was away at college, younger was a jr in hs. The younger one knew something was very wrong because h became physically violent with me while he was home. Basically h melted down. Then h got sick.<BR>I walked in the room one day while the younger one was talking to the older one on the phone....'dad is a player and mom is losing it'. Stunned me into action! We started communicating about all of it.<BR>Both boys became rather protective of mom and wanted to kill dad. To keep things together we had to talk. Too many things happening to the happy family that they had no idea how to handle! H was also sick from stds, and had to have a number of surgeries beacuse of it. Oldest child screwed up at college and came home for summer. <BR>I think we really pulled together as a family to get thru it all. I do know my kids love their dad, but they still question me abt being with him sometimes. They dont know all the details-like number of times, where, who, etc. They do know h and i love each other very much, and are working on things. They also know that unprotected sex leads to disease, cheating leads to heartbreak, and it all comes out in the end! We still talk abt it and i have concerns that the family history will repeat itself. Hopefully they can keep it together thanks to communication and healing.<BR>How old are your kids? How mature are they?

Wow, what a life story. What life lessons.... Were you able to escape STD's? I wish I felt that my H truly understood the horrible consequences of those diseases. I'm certain he would have picked an std up soon. We have a son who is 9 and in his own world and a daughter who is 11, very mature, very much like her dad, very perceptive. Since we lived in a dream world where our family was 'perfect', especially compared to the dysfunctional families we saw around us, we had to talk to the kids in vague terms about mom and dad having problems since we both fell apart as H peeled off layer after layer of his double life. There are local 'ladies' with whom we can no longer associate with and daughter has picked up on that. One 'lady' is cub scout leader in son's pack and asst. softball coach on daughter's league. It is a difficult situation. Of course, H is gone for 3 months so doesn't have to deal with it. That is a good thing since one 'lady' finally told her H about having an affair with my H. We are moving to another state in Oct. so everyone is happy about that. I'll be closer to my family, and ready to make a run for it first chance I get! I sometimes fantasize about an angel coming to me and telling me what to do to make my world normal and my future acceptable. Now that my eyes have been opened to what is going on in this world, I don't know what normal is anymore. Life has become a scary thing in contrast to the secure illusion I peviously lived. <BR>How is counseling going for you and your H now? Have you identified any elements of therapy or recovery that are essential in your experience? Does H talk openly about current issues or temptations he is facing? How do the two of you deal with masturbation when H is traveling? Does he have sexual dreams? Does he admit to memories of his sexual experiences resurfacing and if so how do you cope with that? Did you discover that close friends or acquaintances had sex with your H? How is your sexual relationship now?

Morning broken,<BR>Your h is gone for 3 mos? Mine too....he just left. It is hard to keep the trust for those mos, and I am sure it will be hard for him too since his support system is back home!<BR>Are you able to call him or send e-mail? <BR>No, I did not get any stds. We used protection for a yr after the last affair until the hiv tests were clear. <BR>Right now there is no sex since he is gone. I have no issue with masturbation and fantasies. We have always had an active wonderful sexual relationship. Maybe one of the reasons I was so shocked! It was not like he was deprived at home-we have sex almost daily. Maybe that was part of the problem? <BR>Oh yes, I had to deal with the 'friends' he had sex with. I called them up or wrote to them and told em off! Yeah- a major LB by the Harley prinicples. I knew I should not have done it, but I was impulsive and felt they deserved to hear that the secret was out. I did not tell their husbands.<BR>Off to work. <BR>Hope you have a good day. It does get better, it does get easier! Aloha, cl

We are able to e-mail as well as chat and he uses his laptop to call me. I have a feeling our H's may be in the same field. A very good girlfriend of mine is stationed in Hawaii...<BR>We had a 'good' sexual relationship. I certainly never turned him down. I didn't feel 'cherished' by him and now I know why!!! Our sex life is simply amazing now that he is not carrying the burden of guilt and shame as a dark secret. He was beginning to want to experiment sexually with things I was uncomfortable with and I would not go for that at all. He often wanted me to be with another man and now we realize that was his guilt. Now that everything is out in the open all those ugly sexual desires are gone, lovemaking in its purest form is what we experience. I get very emotional after sex though. I still visualize him with other woman and it is so painful. <BR>I contacted all of our little 'friends' as well. No way I could have gone on in life without doing that. We can't remember one girls last name so I hope one day in this small world I run into her. I found a girls e-mail address and she had sex with H in 1988... It was amazing how wonderful it was for her to hear from us until I sent the next e-mail letting her know how much I appreciated her having had my H (boyfriend at time).<P>I hope you had a great day too....

CL, thanks for the invite from the Divorced/Divorcing topic.<P>As I read through the threads here I believe I may be the only one who is a "serial cheater". I've never heard that term - but it probably fits me. Maybe I can add to your discussion. I am not a sex addict - I don't actively pursue OW for sex to fill an addiction. In my case it is something that happens when the conditions are right (wrong) - alcohol, away from home (always another country), and receptive women. I posted on the other topic board under the thread "would you stay" - I won't repeat that info here but will give some background for you all.<P>I am in the military - have been for nearly 14 years. I have been sent by Uncle Sam to many places in many countries - for long periods of time - away from my family. I have two one year unaccompanied tours - one to Korea, and one to Kuwait (14 months), I have spent 6 months each in Haiti, Bosnia, Macedonia/Kosovo, several months each in Zimbabwe, Nambia, Rwanda, Korea again, and throughout Europe. My itinerary should look a lot like the news stories over the past 9 years or so - I have been to them all. At many, not all - when we work hard - we play hard, usually ending up in a bad set of conditions as I stated above. I believe that almost anybody, but certainly not all, presented with the right / wrong set of circumstances will cheat. I did. Multiple times. I did not start until about 7 years into marriage and more than half way through the year in Korea. A place where many a spouse has traveled the wayward path - husband and wife alike. Through the years - mostly in trips back to Korea - but in others as well - I repeated the same story. Trained / operated hard - went to the club, got drunk, hooked up, and cheated. I didn't do it on every trip - which is probably near a hundred. Normally I would just stick to myself in my hotel or wherever I was staying. But if I ended up in the wrong place......<P>I will tell you that I am not proud of this at all. I wrestled with telling my wife for many years. I never did. Finally she asked, and I told her - everything, any question she asked. Please read the other post for the details of that. That was a little over a year ago.<P>I have read a lot of books on infidelity, including Harley's, trying to understand myself better. I think I do. I know that if I were to put myself in the wrong situation again - I would more than likely cheat again. The thing is to not do that. I have Harley's "situations to avoid" for people like me. I have not placed myself in that position in over a year - and I never want to do so again. I am quite contented normally - as I said, I don't go looking for sex out of a need to fill an addiction.<P>My other post deals with my relationship with my W and where we may be headed. I wanted to join this to maybe help shed some light to you on "serial cheater's" - at least those like me. Others do what they do for their own reasons.<P>There were posts here and on the other topic board about ex-mil wives and W of those who travel a lot, wondering if their H's cheated on them, suspecting that they may or must have. I will tell you, from my pretty extensive experience - a lot of us do. But, most do not. Many soldiers deploy to other countries and become barracks rats - always staying put - never leaving the garrison, never experiencing the country they are in. They live thier lives very honorably and true to their spouse. I, unfortunately, like my moniker (sp?) says, have not lived my life so honorably. And that is very hard for me - because otherwise - I am every bit the officer and gentlemen you might expect if you didn't know this side of me.<P>lth

Hello lth,<BR>thanks for coming down to this forum! Yes, you are the only serial cheater writing from your side at the moment. I would venture to guess there are more reading? <BR>I prefer the term serial cheater rather than sex addict for my h. He does not quite fit the sa definition/pattern, but clearly has a problem. Your story reads very much like his-work hard, play hard, away from home, etc. He always enjoyed being out and abt in the other countries and soak up the culture. I had no idea that he soaked in more than that.<BR>It is pretty heart breaking, but can be worked thru. I think the 3 of us on this thread are proof of that? It is amazing what people can live thru and work with. <BR>I glad you are working on the root of what made you cheat to begin with. It seems from what you say abt being in the same circumstances and doing it again, you are not settled-not sure you would remain faithful? <BR>You said you wanted to tell your wife early on but did not. If you had confessed, would you have tried to stop then? <BR>Obviously you felt guilty, but continued? Tell us abt that? My h has expressed similar feelings. <BR> <BR>cl<p>[This message has been edited by cl (edited April 03, 2001).]

Lessthanhonorable,<BR>Try listening to the real audio recordings of many of Harley's concepts at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html</A> <BR>with your wife. See if you can figure out which emotional needs are the most important for your wife and play them while you guys are sitting down together and relaxing. She might be more receptive to that than reading a book.<BR>Has your wife been able to fully express her pain? Have you gotten down on your knees and showed the grief and remorse that you should be feeling over your actions? What you have done against your wife is grevious. Believe me I am in her shoes, actually my situation is worse, but it sounds from your posts on the divorcing thread as if you disclosed this information to her and then kinda moved on...<P>Davidb,<BR>How is it going with you and your wife?<P>cl,<BR>Hang in there honey, I'm with you all the way! I do wish this was one ride I could sit out on.....<P>I'd like to share some passages from different books I've read on the topic of sexual addiction.<P> "Sexual addiction is about trying to control behaviours-and failing. Just like alcoholics, sex addicts tell themselves that they can 'quit tomorrow' if they want to. They like to think they are in control, but they are not. Indeed, their inabilitiy to give up control is precisely what prevents sex addicts from healing."<BR> "Addiction is also an escape from feelings."<BR> "Addictions, being unmanagelable, also lead to destructive consequences. Lives are destroyed, families broken, careers ruined."<BR> "Most sexual addicts experience devastating shame and believe that they are totally worthless people." <BR>Faithful & True by Mark Laaser, PH.D.<P> "For sex addicts, establishing a definition of sobriety is essential for relapse prevention. According to Carnes, "If neither the group nor the professionals involved have carefully and systematically helped the addict to think through and create a personal definiton of sobriety, then relapse is almost inevitable.""<P> "....he had been involved in a number of extramarital affairs. When he began to look at his behavior, he realized he was conciously making choices that invariably led to his cheating. The process began with him feeling resentful about a situation at home and not discussing it with his wife. Next came euphoric recall of the last affair. The he would flirt with someone, engage in conversation with her to elicit personal information, and ask for her phone number. He would save the number for later, then use it, meet her for lunch, talk to her about her marital problems, obsess about having sex wtih her, set up the tryst, and follow through..... At some point he could not turn back."<BR> "All addictions consist of 2 components-a thinking disorder(denial, blaming others, obsessive thinking about drug or activity) and a behavior disorder(compulsive use of the substance or behavior).. These 2 elements reinforce each other. For the recovering addict, slips into addictive thinking can lead to slips into addictive behavior.... "<BR> "A relapse prevention plan must address the addict's thinking and behavior disorder....examples: desire to have an affair, to become out of control with lust, return to former thinking and secrecy,,, become closed off from spouse,,, fantasizing about other person to achieve orgasm...<P>Sex, Lies, And Forgiveness by Jennifer P. Schneider, M.D. and (her now ex husband) Burt Schneider<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cl:<BR><B>Hello lth,<BR>I won't begin to assume I know what she is feeling but I am sure hers is much worse than what I feel when I think about her affair. The reason for the post on the other board was because I wasn't so sure that I ought to even expect her to want to stay after learning about me. I am pretty sure I would have a hard time with it. I am hopeful, based on what you say below and on how I believe she feels deep inside.<P>It is pretty heart breaking, but can be worked thru. I think the 3 of us on this thread are proof of that? It is amazing what people can live thru and work with. <P>I glad you are working on the root of what made you cheat to begin with. It seems from what you say abt being in the same circumstances and doing it again, you are not settled-not sure you would remain faithful? </B>[/QUOTE<P>My saying that is an awareness of my problem and that if put in the wrong situation that I could again cheat. I do not want to - and that is why I will avoid these situations. I have the things to do from Harley for we serial cheaters posted in my room - to remind myself each day.<P>[QUOTE]<B>You said you wanted to tell your wife early on but did not. If you had confessed, would you have tried to stop then? <BR>Obviously you felt guilty, but continued? Tell us abt that? My h has expressed similar feelings.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>Not sure - the fear of telling for one, the fear of the results - which is what I am living through. But had I told sooner, then I would have gone through this earlier and been past it by now. When you are getting away with something - maybe there is the subsconcious desire to not tell so you can continue. I will lie and tell you that there is no excitement in SA - there is. <P>I know that many believe that sex is only best with someone you love. That is only one element. There is undeniably a lot of excitement in sex with someone new - that feeling you had when you first met - this is an intense feeling. To not recognize that is missing what is probably a big reason for serial cheaters actions. Also, you can be different than your normal self when you are with somebody else you don't know - when there are no inhibitions. These conditions here are why couples try to recapture the excitement when sex has gone stale. Maybe those who are unable to do that turn to cheating. Not saying this explains all - but maybe some. For me, this was a small element - I don't deny these things were present, but they were not what drove me to my actions.<P>lth<P><p>[This message has been edited by lessthanhonorable (edited April 14, 2001).]

cl,<P>How do you handle those moments where you just have no idea how you could possibly continue to live in this environment another day. Why do we stay? Maybe the grass wouldn't be greener (obviously our H's don't think it's much greener or they wouldn't be begging us to stay) on the other side, but the grass would be new, new growth instead of grass that is overgrown and filled with weeds... What does our remaining with repeat adulterers say about us??? I have moments where I feel enlightened and I sense a freedom I have never felt before, especially considering I have been with my H since I was 18. Are our H's going to struggle with lusting after women for the rest of their lives? Sometimes I feel as though I'm going in slow motion towards a reality that I just can't quite grasp yet. Am I lying to myself to even have hope for my present marriage? Instead of developing callouses on my hands due to hard work I have callouses on my heart due to abuse. I don't want to have a callous to cover over my feelings where my H is concerned. I wish I could love him the way I did before. I'm willing to give it time, but I don't know if that is something that I can recover.

OUCH!<BR>Hi broken, I am not sure it is something you can recover either. The love will never be the same as it was before. That is something I have accepted-it is a given.<BR>How can it be? Both of you have been changed dramatically by these events. They are life-altering dramas right in your own home. <BR>I guess I changed my thinking at some point, though I could not tell you when. I too had the feelings you have-quite often. You will mourn the marriage that was because it truly is gone forever. But can you accept the new marriage? That is really what you need to decide. <BR>There are good things in the new marriage. There is honesty and truth. There is total openness. Yeah, you thought that was all there before didnt ya? But now it is a reality instead of Oz. Now you truly know who your h is and what goes on in his head. (not totally, but better than before). You can be supportive of him as he is, not as you thought he was. <BR>I have to think of him as a whole person now, rather than the part of him I used to know. The callouses on your heart may always be there-mine still are. I still have my guard up, and hope to be able to let it down totally someday. I am not positive I can, but am willing to try. How I long to be able to feel that total love I used to feel for him!!! But it is not there yet. I hope it returns someday because I miss it a lot. A new love has developed and is slowly replacing the old. It is such a slowwwwww process. And I am not a real patient person! <BR>I have thought of leaving for the simple fact that I miss the 'total in love' feelings I used to have for him. But those are the very same feelings that keep me here. <P>I was, and still get rather peeved at the thought I lived with a stranger for 20+ yrs! It can just turn my stomach given the right circumstances. But part of that is me. You see, I have not totally learned the art of forgiveness. Oh my, have i tried! I seem to be pretty good at it in most areas of my life, expect with my h. <BR>I had to do forgiveness in remedial steps. I tried the blanket approach and failed miserably! So I had to take things apart and forgive various acts. We have some Kings and Queens of Forgiveness on here that are quite helpful! <P>Will they lust for the remainder of their lifes? Hmmmm, my guess is yes they will. I am not sure lusting is such a bad thing-it is what one does with the feelings that can be bad in a marriage. If one can turn those lusty feelings into fantasies with their spouse, then it could enhance the marriage. My h states he does not want others anymore, and I have chosen to believe it based on what he says and his actions.<BR>Think we need to ask lth abt the lust! I have a feeling that is a question he can help us with.<BR>I hope I have not depressed you. Having the marriage return to something we want and love is what most others at mb are working at too. We do have that in common! We all want to repair the damage, we all want to have a loving happy marriage where we can grow. <BR>Keep working on the positives-do things together this weekend. The negatives do fade away as the good things start to take their place. <BR>Aloha, cl

HI LTH,<BR>It is nice to read your message! Thank you very much for helping me along here.<BR>I can understand the newness...though I have to search thru the cobwebs in my brain to recall those feelings! <BR>And I have often thought about the inhibition issue. I do agree that i would be one to be much less inhibited with a total stranger than with my spouse. Dont misunderstand me-I am not uptight and overly-reserved! But I can understand that aspect clearly and when I have fantasized abt sex with another partner that is a very real part of it.<BR>Do you think you will ever be able to go into the situations where you would have found yourself cheating a few yrs ago? Overseas for 6 mos, rough week, finally can go to town, drink with everyone and just have a great time----without having sex? Or will you always be wanting it? <BR>Something my h says has worked for him is changing his behavior toward other women. He was an outrageous flirt before, especially when drinking and overseas. He too has changed his afterwork hr habits, but he does go out sometimes. He says he just is very careful not to make eye contact with OWs, which reduces the possibility of talking to them. Likely not easy for him, so he is careful abt drinking when in these situations. <BR>Just curious! <BR>Again, thank you. Ask your wife to join us? She might find some friends here that can help her in a positive way. <BR>Aloha, cl

cl and lessthanhonorable,<BR>We have unrooted a deep issue that I believe was the catalyst for my H 'serial cheating'. In college, I went out with my roommate and we got drunk, got wild, and had what I considered back then to be a very good time. He was certain that I had cheated on him back then. My roommate made comments when I was not around about what a wild time we had and insinuated that she would never tell. Isn't it ironic that they ended up having sex.... My H has this deep belief that everyone he loves will hurt him. He has never trusted anyone. This is due to his rough childhood. I wonder if you can relate in any way to this. I also noted in lth's post how jealous he was of his wife. I think these men 'acted out' partly due to their own deep insecurities. One of the women my H had an affair with just knew that her H had cheated on her. My H and I discussed this and talked about how painful it will be if she discovers that her H never cheated on her. It is amazing to me what the mind will do to justify behavior. Now my H has 'thoughts' of me with other men. He is somewhat disturbed by this. We are working on figuring out what are normal thoughts and what are abnormal thoughts for him. He has lived with the thought of me cheating on him for so long and I never did. I think his thoughts of me with other men stem from this warped belief that I an untrustworthy and cheated on him. He lived with that for 14 years and now he finds out that it never happened. <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>.... My H has this deep belief that everyone he loves will hurt him. He has never trusted anyone. This is due to his rough childhood. I wonder if you can relate in any way to this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well I can. My W went through treatment for sex addiction and they say the biggest factor in it is childhood "trauma". For my W it was her parents divorce, with pretty much complete abandonment by her natural father, and a cold detached mother. <P>In our first family counseling session, we went into "disclosure" to make sure there were no more bombs waiting to drop. Well, she said she wanted to ask me something too - if I had ever cheated on her. Now we had been through this before, but her asking me again, in that setting, showed me that she did not really "expect" that I would love her, and be faithful to her - that I would probably abandon her like everyone else. It's sick, I know, a kind of self-fulfilling prophesy, but it is common in sex addicts, and survivors of childhood abuse.<P>My W and I are doing well, btw. It's been 7 months, and the treatment center, and therapy group, has been the best thing for her. My W has changed 100%. She's really becoming just what I want in a wife. I went through a similar change when I got off drugs in 1987, so I recognise the signs that this is for real. We have a lot of hope for the future.<P>We continue to chip away at the tough things that can still come up to cause a wave of pain and anger in me, but I think we're beginning to get on the "same page" emotionally with what happened. This is a strange, but good thing. I feel the power of the betrayal slipping away. I hope you guys are doing well.<P>This is a tough thing to face but if they truly "surrender", then the recovery is at least not hindered by continued contact, blaming others, etc. I love PJ, but we both understand that this has to be 100%. Just like I can't go get high, much as I'd like to right now, she can't do any of the behaviors associated with her acting out. Zero. This works my way too. We have NO secrets. One tiny lie would be considered a serious problem, so we get way down deep. I love it. As terrible as this has been, we have something now. We're connected very strongly - I can tell you that for sure.<P>David<P>