Clarity;<BR>I have been posting in the recovery section under infidelity and someone suggested that I contact you for advice. This website has been food for my soul and I think without the reality check offered here that I would be floundering around in worse shape than I could imagine. <P>I am a WS; had an EA turned PA - have been "clean" for little over six months now. OP is a co-worker of mine and we have been friends for almost five years. I think we still are (as well as can be expected) as we can still talk and keep it on a work level.<P>The past few months has been the worst roller coaster of my life though, and the remorse, anger, guilt, shame - ohh - all the feelings I have experienced along this emotional roller coaster, and the sheer wish that God would just send a dump truck to run over me was my goal each day for a while. I gave up everything that gave me joy because I couldnt focus on anything but the affair. Just very recently have I began to do the things (again) that I feel a sense of worth and accomplishment from doing - church groups, piano, etc. I will not say much about my husband other than he didnt deserve this, but he is just out there...cannot reel him in just yet but I'm working on that.<P>I sent a no-contact letter to friend. I sent it to his home via e-mail, but he says he didnt get it and I am trying to determine if he didnt receive it, or if he just doesnt get it. He still affects me in that somedays my heart just spins and I feel the sickness in the pit of my stomach. I really should leave this job I guess, but it is the best job I have ever had, and the decision to do so will be a major love buster. The past few weeks have been very good and I thought that maybe I will just stay - this seems to be blowing over (from a work perspective). We do work in separate buildings but often lunch together in small groups. I am still in and out of the fog, and have not told my husband about the affair - dont think I ever will at this point. I am working on my marriage. I think my "friend" is too, but he still can approach me and can send me back on the emotional ride and virtually ruin my whole weekend - although reminding me that he loves his wife...what a disaster...and I think he bounces in and out of why this happened too - just like me. Then, I will have days/weeks that are good; feel like I am making progress, and things at home go well, and efforts at work to avoid him seem to go well too. THen Suddenly, last week he came into my office - I melted because he reached for me. I left and cried all the way home. I was mad but not angry - why cant I get angry about it? Still guess fog is coming and going...and HE tells me he misses me...NOT WHAT I WANT/NEED TO HEAR.<P>Today I have returned to work after a long weekend with husband - although we didnt have quality time together the trip was good. Back at work today my friend comes over to say hello - glad your back - and just small talk. Very sweet and didnt make me uncomfortable.<P>I am still struggling with many issues - how long does it take for the fog to lift and stay gone? If I stay at this job with the daily interaction, will it ever become as it used to be - just friends again? I love this job...dont want to give it up but am afraid that if I dont we will wind up somewhere I dont want to be, and I dont ever want to go back to "THAT"... I have very good job - not easy to find.<P>Feel so trapped some days; but the good days seem great when I get them, it is just that the bad days are he## and triggers can cause a great day to derail quickly.<P>Would like to know how you finally pulled thru it...<BR>Scuba

Hi Scuba. Welcome to the board! I just spent a few minutes reading your string on the Infidelity board and I'm not really sure how to answer you. I think the advice you've already been given is sound and there are definitely people on this site who have much more knowledge and experience than I do. If you don't know my story, I had a four or five month EA on-line that never went physical but was still destructive. D-day was just about a month ago and I've been in no contact for slightly less than that. I'm at a point lately where withdrawal is still tough at times, but I'm realizing what a series of stupid, stupid, stupid mistakes I made to put myself in what might have been a very volatile situation. It hasn't been easy.<P>I think, Scuba, that you are doing fairly well. You got out of your A and you know that you want your marriage. These are crucial first steps in the process. You know you made a mistake and you want to set it right. Also crucial first steps. I think, as others think, that you need to take the next bold steps if you're going to pull yourself out of this. You know what they are: disclosure and legitimate no contact. Hear me out.<P>I know you don't want to tell your husband about what happened. You're scared to hurt him, you're scared to possibly hurt the OM's wife and you're probably scared that you'll lose your husband in the process. Maybe, maybe not, but that's a risk we were all willing to take when we made our bad choices and we can't avoid it now. I think if you love and respect your husband, he has the right to know the truth and make up his own mind. If you want a marriage that is predicated on honesty, you can't have this giant secret between you. If you don't tell him, even if the marriage works beautifully until the end of time, it will still be based on a lie, and that's just not right. Something else: the longer you wait to tell him, the bigger fool he's going to feel like when he finds out (and I honestly think he will find out eventually). I know that's hard and the consequences of it could be terrifying, but at some point you have to develop a pattern of truly doing what is right, and I think being honest with him is not only right, but something he deserves and your marriage deserves. I think hiding this from him really strips him of his dignity. I don't think it's fair for you to decide his future for him by keeping this from him.<P>No contact is a tough one, especially with the two of you working in the same company. This is what I know: I didn't truly start getting over the OW until contact was stopped with her. Something else I know: she has tried to contact me once or twice since things ended, and every time she does a huge chunk of my progress is lost and I have to start all over again. This is happening to you right now. Every time the OM walks into your office and tells you he misses or makes you remember your time together you start to wonder again and the rollercoaster ride begins. You had a destructive relationship with this man. You can't go back to being "just friends" because the relationship you've had will always color your contact with each other. You already know it's true. Every time you two get "close" you have feelings and doubts again and then you feel guilty and you suffer for it. You cannot commit completely to your marriage while this man is in your conscious. It doesn't work. <P>Maybe this means you have to quit your job, I don't know. Maybe you can keep your job, but that doesn't mean he gets to visit you in your office to chit-chat and it doesn't mean you get to eat lunch with him in a group of people. It doesn't mean playing frisbee at the company picnic. The fact is we made bad decisions and those decisions mean consequences that we have to face if we want to set things right again. You can't have it both ways or the rollercoaster will just keep going forever. I skipped right over the stage where I could try to manipulate the situation to my personal advantage. I did enough reading on this site to see that you can't have your marriage and your "friend" so I thought I'd save myself and my wife a lot of time and just cut contact and be done with it. I don't regret this decision at all. Do I miss the OW? Yes. Was it easy? NO! Do I miss hating myself and being miserable and being ashamed of myself? Definitely not.<P>You're still being subjective about this. I don't think you can get past it until you can be objective and I don't think you can be objective until you are completely out of the situation. That means no contact. Period. If the OM didn't get your letter or didn't understand it, write another one and put it in his hands yourself. Explain exactly why you can't have contact with him anymore, that you made mistakes but you love your husband and you have to sacrifice the friendship to be able to work on your marriage. This will hurt the OM, but he set himself up to suffer, too. As a very wise woman told me: who would you rather crush at this point, your husband or the OM? If there's one thing I've learned around here it's that most affairs will eventually end with the loss of one person in the WS's life: his or her mate, or the OP. That's the price we pay for making the mistakes we make. We can't do what we did and not expect consequences. This is something we all should have thought of before we got involved in such destructive relationships.<P>You'd like to know how I finally pulled through. I'll let you know when I've actually done it! I'm still in withdrawal right now, but things have come a very long way in a short time. I can't emphasize the importance of no contact enough. I couldn't possibly have ended my EA without ending all contact with the OW. I tried to end the relationship and remain friends and it didn't last long than a day or two each time I tried it. You see, there's a factor you have to consider: the OP. Maybe you could, hypothetically, remain just friends, but your OM can't. Maybe for six more months you can have small talk and one day he'll tell you again how much he misses you and there's six more months gone. You can't trust him to let it go any more than you can trust yourself. You were/are attracted to this man. Get away from him and let him deal with his own consequences. Your husband deserves that kind of respect.<P>How do you beat the fog? You're already beating it. You know what you did was wrong and you know you want your husband. Good for you! Now you have to get away from the OM so you can see both him and your relationship for how destructive they were. I thought my OW was perfect in every way, even though I know she did and said things that would make my skin crawl under different circumstances. We weren't "meant for each other" as everyone likes to say, but I couldn't really understand that until she was gone. I was meant for my wife. It took me a long time to figure out that the OW was ruining my marriage and ruining my wife's life, even if she didn't necessarily intend to (and I'm told by many here that I'm being generous in that opinion). At the very least, she was a person who didn't think enough of my wife or my marriage to leave me alone, even when I said what we were doing was wrong. No, I'm not absolving myself of blame here. Your OM doesn't respect his marriage or your marriage. This is not a good person to consider a future with and it's not a good foundation to build a future relationship on. The further you get from him, the more you'll see how wrong he is for you. This is where the fog begins to lift.<P>Withdrawal is terrible, but you can beat it. Pour yourself into your marriage like never before. Actively pursue feelings of love by being everything you can possibly be for your husband, even if you don't really feel it yet. I waited for months for a lightening bolt to come out of the sky and give me feelings for my wife like I used to have. It doesn't work that way. Meet his needs and you will feel good about yourself. Feel good about yourself and he will feel good about you. Start a positive cycle and just watch what can happen. Remain in a negative cycle and watch how badly things can go.<P>This response sounds harsh. I'm sorry, I didn't mean for it to. I don't have all of the answers, Scuba. I wish I did. I wish I had any answers, really, but all I've got is my own experience and the wisdom of this board. You and I made mistakes. Maybe we came to those mistakes honestly, but we made them all the same, and they can't be fixed until we grow up and accept responsibility for our actions. I'm sorry you're in this situation. I know how awful this feels, trust me. You can beat this thing!<P>Final thought: things look pretty dark right now, but I know for a fact that your marriage can survive this and be better than ever. I KNOW it. I've got a long, long way to go, but my life has changed so dramatically in just a few weeks that I can't deny it. Be strong, Scuba, and stay with this site. We're here to help.<P>Sorry this is so long. You asked! Thanks for being here. I'm happy to help you if I can.<P><BR>Clarity?

Clarity;<BR>Thank you so much for this response - very heart felt and truthful...SKM and Deb among others -have also given me very good advice, and with a new therapist I am trying to sort thru many things and establish an order of events.<P>Part of me still is trying ...I think -to decide if I love my husband; the emotional state of this marriage has taken a toll on me....long before the affair and I feel so spent that I am really facing the issue that it may never be what I hoped it could be. I am trying to decide if I should stay with someone who makes me feel comfortable instead of loved. He hasnt said those words in years but doesnt understand why I would question it...and then gets a bit angry that we had the conversation. I keep hoping a great light will shine on me and I will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I genuinely love this person....this I cannot answer yet with full honesty. I am so grateful for your statement of lightning....that is a reality check in itself.<P>The FOG doesnt help with sorting things out either, and my husband is content with things the way they are. I have been very open about my concerns/issues and dilemas of the marriage and he just shuts down. Even if the affair is brought to light I am trying to determine if this would actually change things for the better (after the pain) as I cannot expect him to change...tis not fair to expect people to change according to my therapist and I agree with that. We continue to live as roomates from my perspective making little steps just recently..but possibly a start.<P>I am now trying to decide what I really want to do. I respect my husband but am trying to decide if I really and truly love him. He has given me his best from the perspective that he takes very good care of me. Does my heart ever just long for him? No....it doesnt. I dont hate him either and dont expect my soul to flip/flop like new love either. Just hoped that by almost eight years of marriage we would have grown together - not apart. We have separate checking accounts, keep all financials separate and have separate hobbies except for Scuba diving which I insisted upon and I think we enjoy together.<P>Part of the encouragement that I need from others now is that although our mates are not perfect (hubby, and I certainly am not either) what are the things that we can look past? That is so poorly worded and sounds very selfish but I am struggling with the phrase..."marry someone you cannot live without, instead of someone you can live with"....this keeps rolling over and over in my mind. Many days I fear that I have married someone that I can live with instead of someone that I cannot live without. I should accept full responsibility for this and stay with him for the care he does give me; the emotional part of me is screaming to escape and walk away....but, not spiritually what I believe is right, and I am not doing him any favors either I dont guess.<P>This affair is the most wrong and damaging act I have ever done....never even was dishonest while dating boyfriends in high school...but this??? What have I become? All of the struggles to try to analyze all of this and then I am angry at him for being so careless with my concerns and feelings.<P>I did make one very good step yesterday; OM came into my office to talk work. I said - OK, work stuff is fine but you gotta stop this "i miss you stuff"...it hurts me a lot and we made a pact to stop all of this....you are not helping and I know this is hard for you too, but i am not going to let you control my emotions anymore. He said - I got your e-mail (he told me he didnt - but admitted to it) and said....I am sorry. Then he said a few short statements that were very sweet and we outlined (once again) ground rules for working. WORK ONLY. No talk of past memories - good or bad. He said - you are right...and then said...I have as many NO REGRETS as I have REGRETS. I just hollered HUSH and he smiled. I think we will able to be friends. It is hard for both of us to admit what we have done.<P>I feel like one down and twelve hundred steps to go. Other big part of the equation (honestly) is that I am almost 34; I am beginning to think I want a child and that goes from hot to cold - although the fog doesnt affect that part of it and my husband doesnt care if we ever have them or not so he doesnt encourge me or express any future dreams of children. <P>Lots on this plate.....more good days now though than bad - that I feel good and that I can make this work. Do I want it to work because that is the right thing to do, or because I really love my husband more than any other human on the face of this earth? Dont know yet but hope to get there soon.<P>Thank you so much for your post...I will re-read it many times.<P>Scuba

Did you ever feel like your husband was the only man for you? Did you ever feel like he was someone you couldn't live without?

Scuba -<P>I hope you don't mind me jumping in on here, and it's not what you think. I'm not going to give you the "be honest with your H speech" again. But, I just wanted to give a short response to something you wrote in your post.<P>You said: "Part of the encouragement that I need from others now is that although our mates are not perfect (hubby, and I certainly am not either) what are the things that we can look past?"<P>When you dated and married your H, what were the qualities you were looking for in a H? For me, I wanted someone I could trust, someone who I could talk to, laugh with, cry with and never feel scared. I'm a big girl and can take care of myself - physically and financially, but for me, I wanted someone who had a good sense of humor, someone who was trustworthy, kind, generous, and patient (one of the qualities I do not personally possess ).<P>I guess what I'm getting at, why did you marry your H in the first place? What was it that attracted him to you and you to him?<P>After you answer those questions, I have a couple more. Today, right now, if you were to get married again, start over, what qualities would you look for in a man/husband?<P>For me, during the affair, during contact with the OM - I kept asking myself what is it that I want out of life. For me, I'll be quite honest, I want to share my life with someone, I don't want to grow old alone, I want to have a family - even if it is just a family of two. I want to come home and have someone in the house, someone to talk to, someone to share a bad day with and someone to celebrate good times. I know I want to be married. Then the next part came a little later, when I was trying to end the affair, I asked myself, who do I want to spend the rest of my life with - my best friend or the OM? I chose my best friend. Then I kind of resigned myself to the fact that my H and I would always be together - even if it was only a platonic, passion-less relationship between two people who cared about each other.<P>Then, still later in the process, I decided what kind of person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. And for me, trust was a very big issue - in my opinion, you can't teach someone to be trustworthy - its an innate quality, something you want to be. I also wanted someone - who no matter what I said, or what I did, would never let me run away - I wanted someone to follow me - to help me. You can't teach someone to be loving and caring - they have to want to be that way - again an innate characteristic. There were a bunch of other things I was looking for, and what I really discovered wat that my H already possessed these innate qualities - the problems we were having were the result of miscommunication, holding grudges, not accepting each other for who we are, acknowledging our differences, but also celebrating them as well.<P>If opposites really do attract, my H and I are proof of that. He has the patience of a Saint, I hate standing in line for anything. My H, likes to talk, I prefer to listen. My H is very extroverted - can talk to anyone about anything - I am a little more introverted and reserved. I have a sarcastic sense of humor - he has a Jerry Lewis, Three Stooges kind of humor.<P>At first, when I was going through the recovery process, I thought "maybe we weren't meant to be together, maybe we really are too different, maybe I should try to find happiness with someone else." I, too, am getting older and want to have a family, and I thought "is this the person I want to have children with?" Then something, almost miraculous happened. My H and I were at a party - adults and children - and there were a few of our friends' kids sitting at a table by themselves - looking bored. The adults really weren't paying attention to them, my H and I were on opposite sides of the party the whole day. But, when I looked up, I saw my H go over to the kids table (he didn't know I was watching) and he started to read some books to them. All three - him and the kids - were laughing and giggling. I knew then that I wanted him to be the father of my children.<P>But, I wasn't always ready to see that. I thought, at best we would have a platonic relationship and that I would go through life wondering "what if." But, that didn't happen at all. By confessing my affair, my H and I have been able to connect on a deeper level, that I never thought existed. At best, I just hoped that I could live in the same house with him, but now, I really know that I don't want to live without him. Alot of those feelings, however, did not come until I completely severed contact with the OM and told my H what had happened.<P>I guess my point, and there is one. Some people feel like maybe they settle, I am not one of those people. Some people feel like the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, I am not one of those people either. I knew that my H deserved a happy, healthy marriage - but so did I. I didn't want to start from scratch - meeting someone new doesn't necessarily men that you will be any happier or things will be any better. But I honestly believe that you have choices, that you can take action to make yourself happy. My marriage is not perfect by any standards, but I know my H and I love each other more and more each day - because we face our problems together. And things are a whole lot easier when you have two people sharing the load and not just one.<P>When I first confessed to my H, I thought he was going to leave me. I wasn't even sure if I wanted to stay. I didn't know if I loved him or if I would ever love him again. At first, I thought very rationally. Well, it took us 3 years to get to this point, I should at least invest a year to try and turn things around. And they have.<P>I don't think anyone here will be able to convince you of something you just don't want to believe. Miracles happen, but only to those people who believe in them. I believe in them.<P>You also said "Many days I fear that I have married someone that I can live with instead of someone that I cannot live without. I should accept full responsibility for this and stay with him for the care he does give me. . ."<P>Marriage can be so much more than that, if you give it a honest chance. We've talked about the whole honesty issue before, and I know you are afraid, but that's the thing about fear, it can cripple you, it can prevent you from taking action, from doing the right thing - or even doing the wrong thing and learning from it. Right now, I honestly believe you are spinning your wheels, that you're in a stalemate, you're afraid to stay and you're not<BR>ready to leave. You're not convinced that leaving is the right thing to do, but you're having a hard time believing in the possibilities. You'll never get anywhere, or do anything - right or wrong - if you're afraid to make a decision, to accept the consequences.<P>Again, this sounds like a sermon again, and I apologize. I never had a second thought about confessing - it kind of came naturally to me. The one thing I know for sure, I couldn't save my marriage by myself - I needed my H's help. I could meet his needs until I was blue in the face, but never really feel completely satisfied, feel like it was worth it, feel like I loved him. It takes two to make or break a marriage. And, I still think you need to give your H a chance to decide for himself what he wants to do.<P>Anyway, I'm still here, thinking and praying for you and your H. Scuba, don't let fear put a vice grip on you. You've come a long way - without any support - you will survive this one way or the other, so I'm not worried. But, just think about it some more.<BR>

Scuba -<P>I hope I didn't scare you away from posting to Clarity. If I did, I'm sorry.

SKM and Clarity;<P>I keep trying to type a response to all you've both have given me to think about and it just sounds jumbled. I am at a loss for words...please bear with me..i havent forgotten you.<P>SKM...so good to see your post - please please always jump in anytime...your remarks are always heartfelt and I am so grateful that you take such time in your responses. I have tried to respond to this three times but it just rambles. When I can gather my thoughts and put sense into it please check back on mee...thank you both.

Clarity/SKM;<P>So sorry for this time lapse...I find my emotional roller coaster is up and down and when it is down I have anger towards my husband and needed to sit and remind myself that he isnt this horrible person that I feel him to be sometimes.<P>I sat and watched our wedding video - almost eight years ago now, and reflected on how happy I was on our wedding day. Did I feel that day that he was someone I couldnt live without? Maybe not...my first love possibly was but I could never trust him and that was a huge issue for me. In that twisted sentence, my first love is much like this OM - no worries - life is all fun for him and that would drive me crazy too, but there is a balance. I trust my husband and so respect him; I did love him when I married him. I still love him now, but I am angry over his careless for my feelings but it comes and goes. He is a very caring person however - would give you the shirt off his back if you truly needed it, and I would give my last cent to someone in need too. We both are capable of caring for others before ourselves. He has the patience of Job (I have zero) and is always willing to help others. I love this attribute in him. I needed to be reminded maybe. We agree easily on most everything that we discuss and he even participates with home decorating...I laugh at that one but he is very in tune with his choices in color, and can be specific when purchasing a sofa and he thinks that I have missed my calling in life by not doing interior design. I just thrive on little bits of encouragement - even insignificant ones like that.<P>If I were going to marry today, I would look for someone that was kind and generous; they would love water skiing, snow skiing (or maybe one of them) and someone who maybe liked to sleep late on Saturday instead of worrying if the lawn was mowed occasionally and could say that he loved me and would just put his arms around me and say "I'm sorry" when my best friend died; I would want him to call home and say he isnt coming home to eat (BEFORE i have cooked dinner) and think that my feelings matter too, and would not look at me like a complete fool if I asked him to pray with me. Oh well...who gets it all? Really...who gets it all? I have resorted to that this week because the grass isnt greener always and everyone juggles their own dilemas.<P>I am comfortable with him...it isnt perfect but I will never worry for anything except lacking true passion and the sense of connection. I think he feels these feelings but cannot act on them and for me that feels like he isnt honest with me...or maybe he doesnt feel that way and wont tell me either. We are opposites but I think he truly loves me...well - I think.<P>Honesty...I know - big issue. My new counsellor wants me to put the whole A on the back burner for a bit. Wants me to recover from death of friend (I am still grieving) and do a bit more self anaylsis. I also told my therapist about my $4000 visa bill....that is big secret; husband would flip - he doesnt have credit card debt and would freak out if he knew I had that much. Counsellor suggests that I start by telling him something to gauge response. So...that is on agenda this weekend - tis a start.<P>I appreciate your comments SKM on being ready to see your husband as the father of your children. I can see him as the father but I worry about him not being able to tell his child that he loves them? IT THIS SILLY? I grew up in a home where I loves you's were said and we hugged often; I think as a mother you act as "glue" for the family and that is such a Godly function to convey love to your children. I think I could continue to never ever be told but my stomach just falls when I have visions of a small child telling him this and he justs hugs them back....sounds so inconsiderate but I then think that he wouldnt do that - ever. That the love of a child could be such a turning point in our lives...I have seen this with other couples in our church.<P>SKM...you are right; I am almost afraid to stay but not ready to leave. Not ready to talk about Affair either. I told him that this August we could sale our home (would not have to pay capitol gains) and that if he wanted to separate that this would be the time. (I kept waiting for a positive remark from him....) I said .."you have always been more than fair financially and I would leave all of that to you; he replied: well, I would never leave you broke. I just looked at him. I then asked him - when did you stop loving me? He didnt respond for a second and said.."I dont know why you feel that way." I then replied (in tears but speaking clearly) that the man I married was gone - he would never be angry toward me for asking that but would reassure me as he does others. I then said..why dont you just level with me? He said nothing and I walked out of the room.<P>He went to play video games on the computer and went to soak in the tub and cry like a big baby - that is not my me either. <P>I know this is getting long but I want to tell you little bit about myself; I have always been a self confident person. I was Homecoming Queen in School - Band, cheerleading, Student Council VP, softball and Secretary of my senior class. I have always done what is right and what other expected and always strived to find good in everthing. I have always strived to be somewhat of an over-achiever, and set goals which I always felt were obtainable. I am very naive though. When my husband and I married I had been with three other men before him. I do know however that sex between me and husband has always been terrible and that is problem too but one that I have always raked under the carpet. I am his first but communication on an intimate level is so poor between us that I know he doesnt want to hear about that.<P>Sorry...I am beginning to ramble ...I have been doing this terribly for over a week now...counsellor is telling me to relax and work on one thing at a time but if I am not "juggling" I seem to not be coping.<P>Thank you for your thoughts and prayers SKM...and Clarity?, you sound like you really have it all together and in such a short amount of time. You are a very strong person.<P>

Don't apologize for the time lapse. You needed that time to collect you thoughts. No problem.<P>I'm not the strong person you think I am, Scuba, but thanks for the compliment. I'm on your rollercoaster too, you know. That's why the ? after my name. Half the time I don't know WHAT'S going on. That's why I'm going to leave it to SKM (the eternal voice of wisdom) to answer your post before I say much. Sometimes I don't have much advice to give. I'm still new at this, too.<P>We've all got issues to deal with. A's just cloud them and add even more guck to them. Facing the issues with the added weakness of an A just makes it all the harder. Bad decisions. Keep reading the board and keep posting. There are people here who can help you. Rely on them. Things will work out in the end, right? Sometimes you just cling to this knowledge, duck your head, and plow your way through.<P>There, that should put a little sunshine in your cloudy day! Like I sad, I'm on the 'coaster too. Be strong.

Scuba2,<P>When I read your post I see two things very clearly. <P>1. You affair is still heavily coloring your judgement and feelings.<P>2. Your description of your H suggests to me that you have the potential to have a very very good marriage. However, it is not, because you have not been honest with him ( I mean ever, not just about the affair) and you are making disrespectful judgements.<P>Let's talk about the sex. You think he is a horrible lover. You then say he won't talk about intimate issues, however what is preventing you from "telling him" just what you want, how you want it , and where you want it??? NOTHING!<P>All you have to do is tell/suggest to him different things and I'll bet he will get the point. But you have to be honest with him. You have to let him know you need something and are willing to talk about it. <P>His upbringing sounds rather impersonal. No I love you's and such. He can learn to do this,but you need to not only tell him you need them, you need to explain why you need them. You were brought up getting them and hearing them in your family. His family didn't use terms of endearment as much, but probably showed love by actions. His family way isn't wrong and tell him that. <P>However, it is easier for you to accept "I love you's", than it is for you to learn a broader way of accepting love. I personally believe he may well see love in many more forms than you. You only seem to see it in a very narrow way, the spoken word. So tell him this and see if he would help you.<P>Now why do I say that you have the potential to have a great marriage. You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I did love him when I married him. I still love him now, but I am angry over his careless for my feelings but it comes and goes. He is a very caring person however - would give you the shirt off his back if you truly needed it,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hello, you need to tell him what you truely need. Just consider the sex issues. He doesn't know. But he is a kind and generous man. Do you realize how many women post on this board complaining that their H is the opposite??? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We both are capable of caring for others before ourselves. He has the patience of Job (I have zero) and is always willing to help others. I love this attribute in him. I needed to be reminded maybe. We agree easily on most everything that we discuss and he even participates with home decorating...I laugh at that one but he is very in tune with his choices in color, and can be specific when purchasing a sofa and he thinks that I have missed my calling in life by not doing interior design. I just thrive on little bits of encouragement - even insignificant ones like that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hello again, you are describing the H most women want. What is the problem?? He expresses his love for you diffenently than you expect him to isn't that it? He is mystified when you need to pray with him because he senses something terribly wrong but doesn't know what it is. He has no idea what he is doing wrong, because he is trying to be involved in things, accepting of you, be the best H he can be based on the models he has seen in his life. Even, having different checking accounts is not something most men would accept. You have the materials to have a good marriage here. What is the problem?? My guess is that you have expected him to read your mind and be like you in ways of expressing things. Because you two do agree so easily, you think that he thinks like you and apparently he doesn't.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I were going to marry today, I would look for someone that was kind and generous; they would love water skiing,<BR>snow skiing (or maybe one of them) and someone who maybe liked to sleep late on Saturday instead of worrying if<BR>the lawn was mowed occasionally and could say that he loved me and would just put his arms around me and say "I'm sorry" when my best friend died; I would want him to call home and say he isnt coming home to eat (BEFORE i have cooked dinner) and think that my feelings matter too, and would not look at me like a complete fool if I asked him to pray with me. Oh well...who gets it all? Really...who gets it all? I have resorted to that this week because the grass isnt greener always and everyone juggles their own dilemas.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>For the most part isn't this your H?? His problem is you haven't been honest with him in your needs. As I mentioned before even the praying request probably just "shocked" him, if you don't usually do it. He has no idea what is going on and you haven't told him.<P>Scuba2, your H cannot be the man you want unless you tell him what you want. When I read your post, I see that he meets the deepest and most fundamental of your needs. The ones he is not meeting are relatively easy for him to meet if he realized what the problem is. He is expecting you to be honest with him, and you haven't been. If the "only" way that you can preceive love is throught the verbal " I love you", he needs to know about your limitations. If you need different things in bed, show him, tell him, instruct him. I will tell you most men respond very positively when in the "heat of passion, his W wants and expresses those wants". <P>It seems to me you first must get the OM out of your life. You also must really look at your H and quit playing games with him. You put him in a situation, he responds a certain way. That way isn't what you want and you turn around and say, "See he doesn't love me." I believe very strongly that your are wrong. In fact more wrong about that, than you are about having an affair.<P>I hope my straight forward (OK, blunt ) response doesn't turn you off. But I do hope it makes you think, even if it does so by making you mad. I don't want to hurt you or make you mad, but I do think you need to stand back and look at what you said, and what really is going on. <P>There is great hope for your marriage. You H loves you and I'll be he can show you in ways you will understand, if only you will realize that he is trying to show you his love even now. You just are not getting it. These are relatively simple adjustments compared to many that are faced here daily.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P><p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited April 06, 2001).]

Scuba - I don't think that there's a lot I can add to JL's post. Like I said, when I was trying to decide what to do, I went through and listed all the qualities I would "look for in a H," and I found out that my H already possessed the kinds of characteristics that you really cannot change about a person. The faults I perceived as "We're too different, we weren't meant to be together" were really communication issues.<P>Right now, in all honesty, I do see that you love your H but you have doubts. I, too, think your judgement is clouded by the affair and other things that are going on in your life (i.e., the death of your friend). But, a lot of the things you mention that you're "looking for" are really learned - or can be learned behaviors.<P>You mention alot of the times that your H ignores you, that he's careless about your needs - well, I hate to say it, but he doesn't know that there's a problem so he may be feeling why fix something that isn't broken. Since you haven't been honest with him, I fear he is just thinking that you are being "moody" instead of really trying to express the seriousness of your needs and how you have turned to someone else to fulfill those needs.<P>I don't know how much more I can say, really. God, Jesus - they never lived a lie, why would you want to? You talk about praying together, and I think that's admirable, but it seems that you have little faith in the power of prayer. Perhaps, instead of praying with your H right now, maybe you should pray that God help you to fight this battle, that he give you the strength you need to tell your H the truth, and the endurance to accept whatever comes your way?<P>You said you sung in the church choir, right? Singing in a church choir is basically praising our Lord and Savior, using your talents to celebrate God's love and mercy - repeat that - to celebrate God's love and mercy. We don't have choirs in our churches just to hear ourselves sing - we use our talents to give glory and praise to our Lord.<P>For a long time I tried to rely on myself to solve my own problems and I couldn't. Again, I know you are seeking counseling from another counselor, your pastor's wife, and that's great, and yes, I do agree with her 100% that you have to solve one problem at a time. Personally, I don't think your most pressing problem is the death of your friend, but your relationship with God. Trust me, I am not judging you, from my experience, I was literally at the lowest point you could be at - I tried to kill myself - twice over this nonsense. It wasn't God who wanted me to kill myself, but the devil. It is not God who wants you to hide the truth from your H - it's fear, and fear in this particular case is a tool of the devil - to keep building that gap between what is True and that which is "easy."<P>For me, once I began to work on my relationship with God -everything else fell into place for me. Yes, you have a lot of issues to deal with, probably just as many as I did. You do have to take it one step at a time, but you should try to focus on what is good, what is right, what is worthy of praise, what is wholesome, and what is pure.<P>Your relationship with your H can be fixed if you sincerely try to fix it - and that means being truthful. I know we all hear the line that you can't change people - but really it doesn't sound like you need to change your H, you just need him to be more responsive to your needs - and that can be done. But I don't think it can be done unless your H knows the whole truth. Have faith, trust in what is good.<P>I've said it before, and I know you're getting tired of hearing it, but you know what, I pray about you all the time. And sometimes, I really feel bad that maybe I'm pushing you too much, or that I sound to harsh and not loving. But the thing of it is, I know that you can get through this if you do the right thing, and by doing the right thing your accpeting God's will be done in your life, and I really think you will be happy - whether your marriage survives or not. Right now, I'd have to say it doesn't look so good - you're miserable when you try and you're miserable when you don't try. Sometimes, you just have to have faith.<P>Again, don't mean to sound harsh, I just want to see you happy and content (and by content, I don't mean settling for second best, but settling for the best that Gos has to offer.)<P>I'll try to write more later, but my H and I are getting ready to go out. One year ago, I thought that my H and I weren't meant to be together either - not I think differently - totally differently. But I had to be honest with my H, I needed his help to fix our marriage - for it to be what we both need it to be.

JL and SKM;<P>JL - you have hit on many things and I can just say...you are right. One thing that I have tried is the sexual part...I have been verbal about that. "please this, not that...what about this way..." - the detail of it.<BR>He does respond for that second most times, but not the next time. When I ask again he gets frustrated and everything is spoiled. I have found that if he has a few glasses of wine before bed that many things seem better. That is the only area that I can say I have been totally verbal and honest about. I so appreciate your straight forward response - tis nice to have male perspective.<P>SKM - thank you again. I read your posts and see many similiar patterns. My husband this weekend said that he feels like I need him more now that I ever had before. I did tell him about my Visa bill and his only response was..."what is your plan to pay it off and when?"...no lectures or how did it get to be $4000...none of the responses that I expected. I presented to him my plan (I am not behind on paying it or anything, but this is big balance). He just reminded me that it is important to him that we dont carry credit card balances. I said...I agree and just wanted you to know. He grinned and i felt like the world was an okay place for today <P>I also told him that I hit the garage door with my car - big scratch....he was not as happy about that one but just let it goo too...<P>We had an excellent weekend and by last night hubby was making fun of my visa bill and said that I was restricted to eating wheaties and bottled water until I paid off my debt. I said that would work but since I do the cooking I guess its wheaties for you too....he said - I will buy a happy meal. We had a very good weekend. I have a slice of peace today that I havent felt in a long time.<P>Thank you both for your continuing posts and encouragement -<BR>Scuba

Scuba -<P>See, it's ironic, but "the truth" will really "set you free." All this stuff you carry inside of you, hiding things, keeping things a secret because you don't know how people will react - well, it can make you nuts.<P>I know coming clean will be much harder to deal with than a credit card balance, but really if nothing else (even if your marriage doesn't survive) there is peace that comes from just being honest. Yes, it's very tough. Yes, your unsure of how the person is going to react, but sometimes you just have to trust that things will work out, and you don't need to worry about things "not working out."<P>I know when I confessed everything to my H - and to the priest - it was like a huge burden had been lifted from my shoulders. I didn't know what was going to happen anymore than you do, and I was afraid, but I was confident in knowing that I was finally, finally doing the right thing, and even though I was in a horrible mess, that made me feel good, like I had control over my life and my emotions again. I didn't have to live in a loveless marriage - or I didn't have to drive myself nuts thinking that I was going crazy with guilt. My H - if nothing else - was always my best friend, and he was my biggest fan during this whole mess - always there to support me no matter what happend.<P>It's like baseball - you just had one heck of an inning, but I don't think the game is over yet. It's another step in the right direction though, and I'ver very proud of you for taking it!

See Scuba2,<P>That wasn't too bad was it??? Next step be honest about the sex. Tell him you want mind blowing sex, and he is the guy that has to give it to you. <P>Seriously, SKM is right as you knew all along. Honesty, is an acquired taste, but it can taste pretty good. So start thinking about how to be honest about the sex stuff. I don't mean hurt him, but tell him of your "needs". Tell him you are having a MLC and need to make some changes in the bedroom. But then discuss the changes, see what he is comfortable with, what he would like, where he would like to take this. This part can be FUN if you do it right. <P>It seems to me from your explanation of your exchange between you and your H on the credit cards, that one of your H's needs is a competent W. He asked you what your plan was, rather than ranting or trying to jump in and tell you how to solve it. I suspect that he feels you will be competent in other areas as well. Meaning he expects you to look at situations, evaluate them, and then proceed to handle them. <P>Further, I'll bet that he expects you to ask him for help if you need it and then express the kind of help you need.<P>I am only guessing here, but I am guessing you are intimidated a bit by his need and expectations so you have lied to him about many things rather than not seem competent. Am I close??<P>If I am close, then let me offer you a piece of insight. Competent people know when they need help and go ask for it. BUT, they usually know exactly what they need and so can ask for the kind of help they need. The don't say "I feel bad, fix it." They say "I feel that I need, 'whatever',and her is what I need in the way of help". <P>Your H apparently knows this, I suspect he will handle your requests for help with care.<P>Is this making any sense? My guess is that your H does love you very much. But as I said before, he is showing you his love and trust in a large spectrum of ways. Including knowing you are competent to solve the credit card issue, and letting you do it. Do you see what I am driving at?<P>I hope so. By the way, way to go with the credit card issue. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hey Scuba, I just wanted you to know that I'm still here and am still paying attention to your thread. You came here initially to get my advice. Here's the best advice I can give you: pay attention to SKM and JL! These two are much more credible than I am and SKM has personally helped me immensely through all of this. They know what they're talking about! All the best to you. Keep us posted.<P>Clarity?