I have been thinking an awful lot about needs these past two years. This subject leaves me very conflicted. <P>a. "I have needs". This is what my wife told me was what led her to her affair.<BR>b. The odd notion that the state of wanting runs counter to happiness.<BR>c. We live in the society of the great salesman. Our civilization is built around creating want (marketing) then satisfying that artificial want.<P>Sometimes, it seems that people validate their wants by declaring it a "need". I need this, I need that, and so on, when what it is they call a need is a want, a desire. All we really NEED is food, clothing, and shelter. Want defines the rest.<P>Saying that someone needs conversation, or sex, or a recreational partner, or someone to nod in quiet agreement validates that desire. Similarly, how many people truly need a new Sony TV or need a new minivan or need new furniture? This is marketing, pummelling our senses daily. And as we all know, sex is used to sell these things. Implied in 90% of commercials is the notion that buying product A will lead to a better sex life; perhaps owning that new powerful car will lead a super model (Kristy or Fabio) to find you irresistable.<P>How many of these needs result from reading articles in magazines or listening to friend's discussing their relationships or watching tv? 100 years ago, couples would spend their lives together, working 16 hours days, having many many children, etc. What differs from today? Why are so many marriages floundering? What leads people to cheat? I think it is intense pervasive sexually oriented marketing. Marketing that justifies amoral behaviour, explicitly or implicitly, as a means of generating demand for product.<P>How many times have we heard about the poor pedophile, unable to repress his/her desires (needs)? Perhaps, an ax murderer has needs?<P>Alas, I, too, am far from this perfection. New TV, vehicles, etc. Left to my own devices, I expensively vascillate between wanting and denial. Sometimes I think the best thing one can do is eliminate all wanting from my life. Other times, I catch myself succumbing to some particularly clever marketing push. I know that as I quest for eliminating want from my life, that perhaps my wife and children see this quest as foolish. If I "want for nothing", then I've got a far better chance at being happy.<P>My want is to not want. My need is to not need. I'm not there yet but I know it exists; a glistening jewel, enlightenment, always out of reach as long as you keep reaching.<P>I know I need to meet my wife's needs, even though I think they might not be on the path to happiness, even though I think they're a sign of weakness. That much is obvious from the positive changes in her following my validation of them.<P>The painfully obvious conflict is the inevitable retort to the statement, "I have needs".<BR>Specifically, "What about the needs of your family, your children, your husband?" The conflict is that validating one set of needs (family) establishes a foothold for other needs. I'd love to sit Bhudda-like, serene and happy, while the world flails against induced desire. <P>But enough of that rant. So, the reality I've slowly come to realize is that this vascillation on my part has been destroying my wife over the years. I must be driving her nuts. Zen master of shiny things. Any suggestions other than to take Valium for the next three decades?<BR>

Zen Master - interesting pondering. But I disagree with your premise:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Sometimes, it seems that people validate their wants by declaring it a "need". I need this, I need that, and so on, when what it is they call a need is a want, a desire. All we really NEED is food, clothing, and shelter. Want defines the rest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The fact is, we humans are equipped with a brain that functions well most of the time (see WS, brain worms) and is capable of imagination, abstract thought, and creating fantasies. So I believe the line between want and need is not so well defined for humans and the two are not mutually exclusive. The deer I hit recently with my brand new car that I wanted and needed only needed to get across the road in search of, presumably, food. Because the deer is not capable of abstract thought and imagination, its needs and wants are mutually inclusive. While I agree there are lots of wants that we could exist without, our brain turns many of them into needs, some needed more than others. And one man's need is another man's want. One man's ceiling is another man's floor.<P>So, I recommend you relax a bit, and ponder other things, like - do I need to stop at the store for a lime for my gin and tonic? <P>WAT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by worthatry:<BR><B>While I agree there are lots of wants that we could exist without, our brain turns many of them into needs, some needed more than others.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Isn't that the point? At what point do desires become needs and thus justified somehow by the human condition?<P>Desire breeds justification breeds need and I would argue (often, pathologically often) that this progression is both false and ubiquitious. Which means I'm beating my head against the wall, or, more literately, repeatedly pushing the same rock up a hill.<P>Your pretentious chowderhead, <BR>Bama<P>

We may be in violaent agreement - the human condition does turn desires into needs - and not consistently so. But this progression is not false! It may be unjustified to other humans - or even temporary - but it is no less real.<P>I need my lime - maybe you don't.<BR>WAT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by worthatry:<BR><B>It may be unjustified to other humans - or even temporary - but it is no less real.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The plague, Jeffrey Dahmer, pedophilia, and Love Canal are also real. I wasn't attempting to argue that this stuff isn't real. Debating that which is beyond our reality is metaphysics and, in my own blowhard opinion, life is too damn short to debate metaphysics.<P>What I am concerned with is the act of transforming a desire into a need as if once established, however tenuously, as a need the desire is justified; posited as a truth.<P>You violently disagree with me about something... My interpretation of your comments is that to err is human and the attempt to conciously hinder the progression within oneself from (imagined, induced, fantasized) desire to dominant irrepressable need is not the-way-of-things (inhuman).<P>Perhaps you might present me with a more readily understood analogy than whacking a deer with your new car en route to the store to get limes. Too much Hunter S. Thompson for my current moodiness (although I like Hunter S. Thompson).<P>Bama<P>

Bama,<P>I LOVE the title of this thread!! If I am to label my Zen master... it would be "Zen master of psychobabble"... I am the Queen of self-help books and therapy.<P>My ex-H saw nothing of worth in it... and I guess that could have been a factor in the demise of our marriage... but...<P>...you ask a question... what makes someone cheat?<P>My answer, quite simply, is selfishness. I cheated because I was selfish. Yes, I had needs that were not being met, and so did he (he had five affairs over the course of our marriage). Was it that our collective needs were not being met that drove us to seek comfort in the arms (and beds) of others? Yes, and no.<P>For 19 years I was faithful -- I loved my ex through thick and thin (financially, physically, and any other way you choose to interpret it). One day I met this man (the OM) and that day changed my life. It was a catalyst (although a VERY POOR ONE) for change. My affair was an exit affair... I know this because I read, and read, and read... and talked and talked and talked... and wrote and wrote and wrote... and I came here. It became an obsession - and one that still draws me in at times, although I am now divorced. <P>My ex called this place "Marriage Busters" because he truly believed that it ruined our marriage. I spent hours here (just do a search, it's embarrassing)... I cultivated relationships here. I made "this" my mistress (is there a name for a man one of those? I'm female, so not a mistress... hmmm... as if I need to devote any time to that one, eh?). <P>So yes, Bama, I understand your ponderings...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Ok. We need to eat, sleep & breathe. Most of us also need to work, get paid, pay our bills, wear clothes, live in a covered shelter protected from the elements and deal with others. Not necessarily in that order but you get my drift. <P>More than that or how the above is carried out is a want. Left up to our own individual tastes, abilities and desires. <P>The deal with others part and making the want a need is where a lot of the confusion begins for those who have an A. They must convince themselves (guilt by association OP & WS) that their wants must become needs at the expense of everyone else. This is wrong. It should be illegal. It is immoral but that does not stop this from becoming an epedemic. <P>All the laws of all the lands could not put Humpty Dumpty together again. That is how I feel about the laws which allow the WS's & even OPs to benefit from breaking up families. <P>Did I just move to another subject? Sorry for disgressing. You guys are getting to philosophical now and it is about siesta time here. But I need to keep working so I will sign off for now. <P>See ya!<BR>L.<BR>

ooh... I like this thread... how did I miss it before?<P>A very wise man once said: "Someday you will find that having is not necessarily a more satisfying thing than wanting..." or something like that ... (any other Trekkies out there?).<P>"I need" when placed in front of things other than air, water, food and shelter (MAYBE sex - psychologists are STILL debating about this one) is, IMNSHO, very similar to saying "I lust after..." I agree with BamaAngst that our culture(s) allow such lusting to be defined as true need when, in reality, it is little more than Freud's "id" being allowed to run the show... The acceptance of these wants as "needs" only allows the "lust-er" to feel justified in his/her incredible selfishness.<P>If we viewed all wrongs in the same manner that infidelity is viewed in the world today, crime would be rampant. Theft could simply be justified as meeting a need that one's job wasn't meeting. Assault could be justified as meeting a need to release anger and violent feelings. Murder could easily be justified as the natural way to meet the need to remove a person from one's life! We would, as a society, WATCH people kill other people and not say a word about it, because it isn't our place to do so... the murdered person must, after all, have done something to deserve being killed.<P>It's a crazy mixed up place, this world. Because, if we actually treated infidelity as the wrong, the crime, that it truly IS, the WS's of the world would pay dearly for it instead of getting joint custody of the kids and not being expected to pay any kind of spousal support. We'd probably need a LOT more jails.<P>OK, now I am rambling ... <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

HI Bama, <BR>Developing consciousness....urgency for change?<BR>I do believe my world can change but I am constantly having to remind myself that it is my attitude and belief system that has to change. <P>I actually need little....am quite content with the material possessions I now have. What is lacking is purely spiritual. Or so it would seem so simple!!! I laugh at that because while it sounds quite basic, it is convoluted, and messy. <BR>To live a more simple spiritual life would mean i have to work less and live life more: move to a better place where I would not be able to provide for my family as well, take more time to spend on myself, etc. Therefore cutting into the material comfort area. <BR>See, the simplicity is convoluted quickly. I am looking for the balance.<P>Though i do not agree with my h's ENs, they are his. I have to grow to accept them as a part of him. Sometimes I find something is totally ridiculous to me...but I need to learn tolerance and forgiveness. <BR>Lately my life has been a struggle. I can usually get around and deal with the little obstacles in life-deal with things and be happy. The obstacles I have been facing are too bgg for that, so I have to take another look at where, what and why I have certain belief systems. Look at how I am keeping myself from the right path? <BR>(((((hugs)))) cl<BR><p>[This message has been edited by cl (edited April 08, 2001).]

Zen master many of us pay homage to your thread. you have gived rise to the most refreshing interplay of mental gymnastics I have yet to read. I love it. also, I suspect that if we,poor base units of electro,chemical,mechanical compounds, can attach our minds to the elevated level of complete abstraction, we can fend off almost all emotions. It might resemble a catatonic state of complete imobility. not to be sneezed at...some times feeling nothing is better than pain? or not? keep up the thinking here

Interesting thoughts. I am in agreement with one man's ceiling is another man's floor. And there in seems to lie the (potential) demise of the human condition...or at least many human relationships.<P>I wonder Bama if we are all guilty of perpetuating the "illusions" we WANT or NEED. I know for me, truth, is an incredible need. I want to believe in something...someone.... and in this incredible (and devastating) journey I have been on this past year and a half, I realized that I believed in my H.... too much...<P>But you know..that is MY problem. It was the illusion I had set up, based on my needs. <P>Seems we all go through life looking for answers... I'm inclined to think that perhaps instead of looking for answers, a well formed question would benefit us more.. "who do we serve?"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Orchid:<BR><B>They must convince themselves (guilt by association OP & WS) that their wants must become needs at the expense of everyone else. This is wrong. It should be illegal. It is immoral but that does not stop this from becoming an epedemic.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I felt for a month after D-Day that the affair was akin to a murder, for I felt dead. I lost 40 pounds in 6 weeks before the zoloft started working (had to up the dosage three times), keep a job, take care of my boys, building a new house, etc. I don't know how I made it through but I did. The complete selfishness of the thing, the lies, the betrayal, to me, our kids, to her co-workers, to her family, to my family, to her friends, et cetera.<P>But, it still felt like a murder. To be so unfeeling about the entire rest of the universe... it must take an extremely cold heart. If this is what having "needs" leads to, I want nothing of them.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>terri:<BR><B>If we viewed all wrongs in the same manner that infidelity is viewed in the world today, crime would be rampant. Theft could simply be justified as meeting a need that one's job wasn't meeting. Assault could be justified as meeting a need to release anger and violent feelings. Murder could easily be justified as the natural way to meet the need to remove a person from one's life! We would, as a society, WATCH people kill other people and not say a word about it, because it isn't our place to do so... the murdered person must, after all, have done something to deserve being killed.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is it exactly. At the dire risk of upsetting the Harley's who pay for this site (although they do seem to get enough referrals to easily pay for it), I often think that this "unmet needs" justification is simply a largely successful way to allow the BS to compartmentalize (too big a word for the thought, but wth) the betrayal and pain.<P>That is, by changing the name, the pain gets deflected somehow. Maybe this is a kindness. My opinion, which is obvious enough I suppose, is that this is a a deception, occasionally effective. If it's not effective, try a different counselor/technique. ;-)))<P>The French poet, Valery, wrote: "True love is the creation of a religion whose god is false." Whether you're a Christian or not, perhaps, you might understand that he was describing an act of kindness. I think the directive to go meet "unmet needs" to save a marriage is similar...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>joell:<BR><B>Zen master many of us pay homage to your thread. you have gived rise to the most refreshing interplay of mental gymnastics I have yet to read.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A small point: the label "Zen Master of shiny things" is truly self-deprecating. Give me a new gizmo and I'm captivated by it until I've taken it apart, broken it, bought replacement parts, tried unsuccessfully to put it back together, asked for help, finally paid someone to put it back together, etc. I'm a sad sad monkey boy.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>tootrusting:<BR><B>I am in agreement with one man's ceiling is another man's floor.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Somedays I think I'd be just fine with, "one man's wife is not another man's wife. She's the first guys' wife. Damnit! Hello?".<P>Enough whining today. Maybe tomorrow, I'll understand more/better.<P>Bama

I think one must distinguish between "needs" and "emotional needs".<P>An emotional need is not one that must be met in order to continue living. It is not a necessity for life. It is, however, a pre-requisite for romantic love staying alive. When ENs are not met, and romantic love dies, it is very human to try and met those "needs" elsewhere. But, it is not right, nor unavoidable...<P>In other words, it is not an excuse.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited April 09, 2001).]