Forgive me if this is a long post. I have posted before as sosorry on my work computer but do not have access to that password at home so had to reregister. Anyway, my H is away at a conference for the first night since we have recommitted and I wanted to reach out, tell my story, asks some questions and get some feedback. Plus the company why I go insane this day will be appreciated. If what I say hurts anyone or brings up bad memories, I am sorry. It's a large burden of guilt I carry. Ok, here goes: I had an affair two years ago with a coworker who was also a best friend to my husband. His wife also worked with us and considered me a best friend. Now for the really rude part, she was pregnant at the time. It started when her husband and I were sent away together for a conference. I got drunk, crossed the line the rest is history. Though we didn't sleep together that night, we went way over. Anyway, I felt horrible the next day and didn't go to work for four days-he however, became interested and began pursuing me heavily. I didn't know how to turn him down since I initiated it and he was such a good friend prior to this. The first time I actually slept with him I did thinking he would finally just leave me alone after we realized how "wrong" it was. This thinking coming from a college-educated, professional, strong woman. Anyway he continued to pursue keeping the fog quite thick. Discovery came 6 months later when he told his wife that he loved me-she informed my husband. We, prior to this, had denied it 8,000 times causing me to tell such lies to family and friends. Anyway, even at first we didn't tell the whole truth-that came 3 months later after I had sworn I never slept with him-once again lying. We made his poor wife look crazy. Anyway, my H turned to one of his female coworkers for "advice"-she was willing to offer much more. 3 months after that-we separated. I then got to watch his affair, though he doesn't call it that because he thinks he was quite justified. He filed for divorce, child support was set...then I forced him to (by law) go to three counseling sessions prior to divorce. We were saved in 2 sessions by an excellent counselor that could speak my husband's language. June 23rd he recommitted-moved back in the end of August-wavered once, but now is "happy". With all of that said, many questions remain...#1...did what he do constitute an "affair?" #2...why can't I, even though we are "happy" now, and it was primarily my fault, let it go? #3...is anyone else out there a WS & a BS? #4...how do I make sure I didn't permanently warp my 9&11 year old children? #5...is anyone else dealing with a passive/aggressive BS (for example...he now won't do any chores he used to - I guess out of punishment?) #6...did anyone else have to face the wrath of coworkers and a small town community?-you know the thing I hate most about that? We had what most people consider to be the "perfect" marriage...I think people actually relished what we went through...it gave them good gossip! I guess that is it unless anyone has anything they want to add...it's going to be a long 24 hours without him, I could use the company! thank you...sorry for the length

You ask excellent questions that I am unable to answer.<BR>I think that you are extremely lucky your husband is still with you. This had to be a double betrayal from his wife and best friend and then having you continuing lying to everybody. I would think that your husband was in a state of shock and was reaching out to anybody that would comfort him in his time of pain and betrayal. I can imagine the shame he felt that his wife and best friend would conspire to do this to him. I think that you should realize what a lucky woman you are and that most men would have walked away and never looked back at a double betrayal.

Just a quick note:<P>I am both betrayer and betrayed. There are several on this board... although at this late hour (it's only 11:20, but this 40 yr. old bod is getting tired! )I can't think of who they are...<P>... maybe tomorrow I'll remember to come back and guide you to them...<P>YOU ARE NOT ALONE...<P>... and you are indeed blessed to have a H who is willing to work through this with you.<P>Take care<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Workingitout,<P>I have not been your situation nor your H's but I am willing to answer a few of your questions.<P>You asked: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> #1...did what he do constitute an "affair?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, it was an affair. However, the difference in his mind and perhaps yours was the "justification". Byranp gave you a reasonable explanation. He made a very poor choice in how to handle what you did. But I don't think he cared at that point, I suspect in someways he was commiting moral suicide. He knew it was wrong, he knew it would hurt him, he knew it was against his principles. Notice I didn't say anything about what he knew it would do to you, he felt the marriage was over and didn't care.<P>I sound pretty harsh. But I am not trying to be. I feel very sorry for you and what you have been through. What he did was plain wrong.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>#2...why can't I, even though we are "happy" now, and it was primarily my fault, let it go? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't know the answer to your question, but I suspect it is tied to your guilt. I can offer some ideas to discuss and speculate about it. One, you know that your affair was a complete rejection of your H. The fact that it was with his best friend and with your best friends H, just sort of finished off the whole mess. I suspect he still doesn't understand why and what happened. You don't either from the sounds of it. (you are sosorry aren't you?)<P>Now his affair makes sense right? It was wrong but you know he did it because you had rejected him big time. <B> He didn't do it to reject you, but rather out of pain. </B> As you state he would not of done it if you hadn't had the affair. <P>You also know that he is not proud of what he did, hence his stance that it wasn't an affair. You know it was and he knows it was, but it was so against what he thought he stood for. But was sort of driven there, because of the other friend that you encouraged him to talk with and what you had done.<P>So with this convoluted logic, you still have trouble letting go of his affair because it reminds you of yours. You are sort of feeling his guilt and it bothers you. Perhaps, because you know he is ashamed (won't admit the affair in the sense of calling it that) and you contributed to that shame it keeps coming to your mind and reminds you.<P>Now I am not trying to paint a gloomy picture here. It seems to me whether your H calls it an affair or not, you need to realize it was and he is ashamed. Further, you know his affair was not because he choose to reject you during the marriage before your A. So have confidence, he is very unlikly to have another A, because he is so ashamed of the A he did have when he felt the marriage was over.<P>Is this making any sense? I am sorry, in my mind it does, but I am not sure I am making sense to you. So what to do?<P>I would recommend thinking of it as something he knows he is ashamed of. As something he won't do again. As something he did because he did love you and was so hurt by the love.<P>I realize this is sort of making you out to be the bad guy here. That is not my intent. I hope that I am reassuring you abit. I also think that you would just like to hear that he is sorry for what he did to you. That he realize that you are hurting as well, because once the affair was over you did love him, although he doubted it very much. Because you did remember that you loved him, you were very very hurt by his affair, even if you do understand it's origins. <P>WIO, you need to cut yourself some slack and I suspect that some of this will start to fade. You two have survived a very horrible experience. It was horrible for the both of you but you survived. Think about that very deeply, not many people would have you know, your love for each other proved stronger that either of you ever suspected. <P>THAT IS GOOD! Don't you think??<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>#3...is anyone else out there a WS & a BS? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There are some. I am not one.<BR> <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>#4...how do I make sure I didn't permanently warp my 9&11 year old children? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why do you think you might have?? Just from what you have posted, I think you will have some very interesting discussions (yes embarressing) with your children when they are in their late teens about both how much you and H love each other and what you survived and the importance of communications,commitment, etc.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>#5...is anyone else dealing with a passive/aggressive BS (for example...he now won't do any chores he used to - I guess out of punishment?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He is still healing, and I suspect that he will come around as time goes on. Do you ask him for help?? One thing that sometimes gets things going is to ask him to help you and you both do something. Also if he does something you like, reward him with some kind words, a kiss, or more . Us guys are such suckers for that kind of stuff. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>#6...did anyone else have to face the wrath of coworkers and a small town community?-you know the thing I hate most about that? We had what most people consider to be the "perfect" marriage...I think people actually relished what we went through...it gave them good gossip!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am sure it did give them some juicy gossip. However, your marriage may not be "perfect" very very few are, but it may prove to be much stronger than most. You realize that, "the best revenge is a life well lived" don't you? <P>I will say one thing about what has happened in this whole mess. Neither of you can feel like you were completely walked on by the other. You both had affairs, while it isn't good to have a retallitory affair, it does balance things out abit. He cannot plead complete victim, and can say that he wasn't a complete cockold either. You two have survived something most marriage could not. While you shouldn't be proud of the affairs, you should be proud of what you have done afterward. You might remind your H of that as well.<P>Sorry to be so long winded. I hope something I said has helped you.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Just my opinions here, but I'll take a crack at the questions:<P>#1...did what he do constitute an "affair?"<P>Technically yes, but given the situation that existed, where you were engaged in an affair and lying, one has to consider the fact that he is only human, was hurting, and made a bad decision. I think it really isn't so important whether we call it an affair or not. What is important is what you do now to improve your marriage.<P>#2...why can't I, even though we are "happy" now, and it was primarily my fault, let it go?<P>Because it isn't easy to get over knowing your spouse was engaged in a relationship with someone else.<P>#3...is anyone else out there a WS & a BS? <P>There are lots of people on here. Maybe put a post that has this in the title, and you'll attract more opinions.<P>#4...how do I make sure I didn't permanently warp my 9&11 year old children?<P>Show them how to have a loving relationship and a great marriage. I don't know how much they know about it all. You can't change the past, but you can do your best forever. They can learn that regardless of hardships, you don't give up. They can learn that marriage is something you commit to, and that although you and your H had problems and made mistakes, you didn't run from your vows. You worked on it and ultimately honored your commitment. Maybe they can see what two people that love each other look like, and maybe it will help them not become contributors to the ridiculous divorce rate that we have today.<P>#5...is anyone else dealing with a passive/aggressive BS (for example...he now won't do any chores he used to - I guess out of punishment?)<P>Can't help you there, but I think that if you have problems and things that bother you, then go to counselling, read self help books, talk to the Harleys, or do something so that you don't allow your marriage to be damaged from holding feelings inside and not discussing them and resolving the issues.<P>#6...did anyone else have to face the wrath of coworkers and a small town community?<P>Can't help you there either, but I'm sure you'll hear from someone that can relate. My wife shocked me with "I'm not happy and want to separate" out of the blue, then I discovered that she really had someone else, and she is still gone. So my views are a bit tainted by that.<P>Sounds like you both have some issues to work on that maybe stemmed from your relationships/affairs, so I hope that you don't stop the efforts on recovery.<P>Good luck and I hope you miss each other for the day away. It is nice to hear that two people that went through what you did, actually made it and are together and "happy". Take care of your kids and yourselves.<P><BR>

Hi, told ya I'd be back!! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>#1...did what he do constitute an "affair?" </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes! My ex-H had three affairs (mostly emotional, with some physical -- kissing, oral sex, etc.) in the 1980's... during our 19th year of marriage, and the year I turned 40, I had an affair and slept with the man once (that woke me up!)... my then-H was DEVISTATED and began a series of bad choices that led up to a final physical affair with a woman he met at church. Yep, yep, yep... what my ex did, and what your H did IS AN AFFAIR. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>#2...why can't I, even though we are "happy" now, and it was primarily my fault, let it go? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Because, dammit, *deserved* (in our minds, because of our affairs) or not, it hurts. We are on the receiving end of an affair -- the WORST kind of abuse, in my mind.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>#3...is anyone else out there a WS & a BS?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>I guess I answered that. Sadly, yes, there are a few of us.<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>#4...how do I make sure I didn't permanently warp my 9&11 year old children?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Well... show love to their father, talk about this privately -- but not often -- my kids hated, NO HATED, how dad and mom went into the bedroom ALL THE TIME for "talks" that ended with one or both of us crying. When the times comes, if they want to know the truth, tell them. If they ask now, discuss with them, in age appropriate ways, the truth. Always, the truth.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> #5...is anyone else dealing with a passive/aggressive BS (for example...he now won't do any chores he used to - I guess out of punishment?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Fits my ex to a tee!! Same exact thing... I can't promise you that he will snap back to his usual self. There are a few of us here who had to deal with VERY punishing spouses (TheStudent comes to mind)... in her case, as in mine, there was ultimately divorce. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> #6...did anyone else have to face the wrath of coworkers and a small town community?-you know the thing I hate most about that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Try working at a small community college when your H is coming down threatening to kill everyone... boy, the talk that went around that place!!!!! Plus, the OM's girlfriend sent icky emails that were intercepted by the IT guys and I had to file a police report. Egad!!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>We had what most people consider to be the "perfect" marriage...I think people actually relished what we went through...it gave them good gossip! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yep, understand this one too... especially this one friend of mine who has been itching to have some man, any man, come on to her (her own mid-life crisis!)... she loved it... perpetuated it... became friends with the OM and his girlfriend just to get both sides... blech.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 07, 2001).]

Thank you for your responses. As always, I am amazed at how you are all able to truly understand and offer insight. Unfortunately, I guess experience (whatever side it was on) is the best teacher. I do want you to understand that I am very well aware of the magnitude of my betrayal. As Bryan mentioned, it was indeed the fact that I chose my husband's best friend that made it so difficult. Reading what you wrote was another "wake-up call" to truly realize what a special person my husband is. Just learning-part of the trouble I had in moving on is that my husband didn't seem to express true remorse for what he had done. I know it was in retaliation, but it still greatly bothered me that he never denounced that relationship. What you said helped-that he will refuse to see it as an affair because it does go against everything he stands for morally. I will look at it that way each time it starts to bother me-because I truly feel you are correct in this situation. Thank you for all your responses. My husband did call me last evening-in front of all the guys he went with (there were 4 others that all know of this thanks to this stupid small town), so I survived last night ok...I guess I deserve everything I get anyway. I am lucky to have the marriage I have. I can't wait for him to come home so that I can show him. You all have refreshed me! He's in trouble!

New beginning...our posts must have crossed! Thanks for your response! You are so right about our kids...they hate those words..."can you leave your dad and I alone for a minute" and they hated us talking in our bedroom. There was recently a commercial on TV about two married people dressing up as maid and rich man having an intimate dinner (until their kids came home). My daughter said that is just like my husband and I. Maybe they are starting to see the love again? I guess one of my biggest concerns is that I am so afraid. Afraid to trust that he won't change his mind and some trigger someday will be enough to say he just can't hack it anymore. I just want to get to the point that I don't want to be afraid-that I can be comfortable again. He used to always say that at first when he returned home "I think you are getting comfortable again"...my response would always be "I want to be comfortable! I think I should be comfortable in a marriage-at least not afraid that one thing will be enough to send him away again." And just because I need to...I truly believe that the first evening I got so drunk, the OP put something in my drink that caused me to act the way I did (I passed out on the way home, immediately vomited...lots of different reasons.) Then the OP used my behavior to manipulate me into the rest. Well, at least it would make me feel better for being responsible for so much pain!

Hi WIO,<P>I see SO MUCH HOPE for your marriage. <P>I just get the feeling, from your last post, that there is love there, and that you both have your heads on as straight as can be at this juncture.<P>Best wishes to you and your H... and I will look for your updates... I HOPE THEY ARE GOOD ONES, but if you feel like crap one day, don't be afraid to come and vent. We all did/do!!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

WIO,<P><BR>Listen to Sheryl, she does know what she is talking about and she has helped more than a few people around here.<P>I have been thinking about my response to you all morning. I don't think I completely conveyed to you what I think.<P>First, thing I do think is that you don't "deserve" to have a bad marriage, a spouse who has withdrawn, or to not be "comfortable" in your marriage and your home. You have made a very serious mistake, but you have done your best to rectify it. You are continuing to work on your marriage.<P>I think the short answer about your second question, is that he did have an affair. Now matter how it was justified, he for a period of time loved another woman. That hurts! <BR>However, I must tell you something. Your counselor didn't work a miracle. You H wanted to come back to you, he didn't want that divorce, he just need the right "excuse" so that he didn't look like a "wimp" for taking you back. No counselor I have heard of can make someone love another person and face the pain and uncertainty (yes even laughter)that he was. You see with the whole town knowing, you may feel shame for what you did, but he felt like a complete loser and the whole town knew it. Because as the loser you are proven to be powerless in many ways it is worse than being the bad guy.<P>Yet, your H came back. You were a good enough woman for him to love through it all, that is quite a compliment WIO. <P>I think he doesn't feel it was an affair, because it was something he felt he HAD to do, to regain his self respect.<BR>Yet, it was and that is why you have a hard time letting go.<BR>But he is still having a hard time as well, you can bet his friends still kid him from time to time when he calls you. Men do that to one another. <P>Finally, you asked about the passive/aggressive behavior of not helping around the house. I don't think my answer to you really didn't help much. So please consider these two possibilities. 1. You H is still depressed from all of this. In the state of depression it is often very hard to do things, especially things that don't HAVE to be done.<BR>2. He is showing everyone he is still "The Man" by not helping around the house. I know it is silly, but since your marriage was apparently broadcast all over your town, he lost a lot more than you realize. In the world of the male, he lost a lot of stature when you had your affair. I know, I know, it shouldn't be that way, but often the "victim" pays a higher price and males are not supposed to be "victims".<P>If the former is true see if you can get a better handle on his depression and see if he will take something, even St. John's Wort. If it is the latter, a suble campaign to help rebuild his esteem might go a long way toward getting things around the house done.<P>Finally, I have a couple of questions. What happened to the other couple? And what happened to your H's OW? Are all of them still in town or have they moved on and out?<P>Hope this is a clearer response than last night.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Jl-thank you for your response. To answer your question,-I had to go to the boss of the place I work to get my OP to stop contacting me at work and my father to confront him about contacting me at my home. I haven't spoken with him since. Last I heard, those two have divorced. She has admitted to mutual friends that she believes he "stalked" me. He took 1 year off from our mutual workplace and hopefully won't return next year. The OW still works with my H, which is difficult, though is moving next month in with a new man. It was funny...she just broke up with the father of her daughter, hooked up with my husband, then 2 short months later had a boyfriend whom she is now moving in with. Of course, who am I to throw stones. The only thing that makes me angry is she tried to tell my husband how awful I was! Anyway, you made sense in everything you wrote. It was funny...I was grocery shopping today and ran into the counselor that helped "save our marriage". I thanked him, and after leaving had the same thoughts you did...maybe the time was just right for my husband to come home? I don't know. I do know, he returned from his trip, brought me souveniers...called three times...I know things are looking up...I know I am truly blessed...thank you all for your willingness to share. I hope sometime I am able to help any of you.

WIO,<P>I think you don't have to worry about your H's OW. I strongly suspect that your H knew what/who he was into with her. He was just angry, hurt, and embarressed by the whole thing and that let to him doing what he did. I also suspect his embarressment is why it isn't an "affair". <P>I feel sorry for the your OM's W. I take it she also left her job? It does sound like he was more than interested in being "just a friend" to you.<P>As for your H's return, well enjoy. You have grown a lot from this, I hope he appreciates it. I am sure he has changed as well.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL-<BR>That is more guilt I carry. (the OM's W). I did write and apologize to her for what it is worth. I have always wanted to contact her again, but I think that would only serve as to alleviate my guilt. Here is a question...do you think men and women can just be friends? I used to think that strongly...don't anymore, not for one second.

Can men and women be just friends? Well, you can certainly never be just friends with someone you had an affair with. I think that is true. You may have to be around them, but be friends I don't know.<P>I will say that men and women being friends is very difficult if it is a one on one situation. I think a woman can be friendly with a man if her spouse is also his friend. But you are well aware of the potential for disaster.<P>I will say this, I have been friendly with woman I have slept with after our relationship was over. I have however, never been "friends" with a woman since I married. I am friendly, but not "friends". I have always made it a point to not be one on one with a woman in a social situation. I always include my W or have other people along. <P>I do work closely with several women, and we will even go out for coffee during the day to discuss work. But I live in a small town and my W knows when they are coming to my office to work and that we do have coffee. She is always invited to join us.<P>I have been married 25 years. And as you can probably surmise had a very active batchelorhood, until I was over 30. But I also realize the potential for disaster. I had a pretty good idea before I found MB, and after reading and posting here, I HAVE RELIGION. <P>I don't know if I helped, but that is my honest answer.<P>God Bless,<P>JL