After 25 years of no contact, last summer I found my first wife/ex-spouse through the internet. We had no children together, but did go through two devastating miscarriages. She then had had an affair then filed for divorce. She was dumped by this guy, then went to college and grad school, married again then divorced after six months, then married a third time and has been for more than 20 years now. She and her husband are VERY successful and they have 3 kids, two in college. I never hated her despite all of her actions (though I think I must be holding a grudge, a feeling that she owes me big time in the affection department). <P>I remarried, had six kids, but that ended in divorce, too, after 14 years. I then remarried again in 1995. My current wife has six kids too over two marriages. We have no children in common. Only four of our kids still live at home.<P>My question is this. When my first wife and I emailed for six months, we found that we filled those emotional gaps that had been missing so long ago and some that are missing now in our lives. The feelings were very warm and tender. We feel as soul-mates, because we can anticipate so well each other's feelings (that's got to be natural having lived with someone in marriage even for a short time). I've been reading Dr. Harley's book "Surviving an Affair" and realize that my ex-spouse might as well be someone I just met.....but she isn't. We've agreed to exchanging family Christmas letters(and my current wife has agreed to that), but to cutting off all other communication, because we know it can go nowhere, despite our deep abiding friendship, and because we know the danger continued communication could do to our families. I want to know if Dr. Harley has addressed this type of relationship with ex-spouses, or if there are others who have already addressed it and where those conversations might be found. Thank you! <P>[This message has been edited by Mayo (edited April 08, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Mayo (edited April 08, 2001).]

Perhaps you can give me a "Harley" point of contact in the Salt Lake City area.....?

Mayo,<P>I don't know that the Harleys have ever addressed this particular situation, but I think you are doing the right thing by cutting off contact with your ex-wife. There is a lot of potential there....all unfortunate potential.<P>I would suggest you call or e-mail the Harleys directly for information about a local contact. I do not know of any, but I do know that people in the past have been helped with phone counceling from the Harleys. <P>I hope you find what you need.<P>As to the rest of the posters here, Please remember to answer everyone. Let folks know you care.<P>Thanks.<P>All the best.<BR>--HBC

<BR>HBC Thanks for your help. Do you know a direct phone to the Harleys? <P>Please go to Emotional Needs and you will see this same issue as I transferred it over there and have been getting some wonderful input. (Title: ENs only EA w/ex-spouse can help)(I think!)

Mayo, <BR>I do not have a direct phone number. But go to the "counsel" button at the top of the page and there are instructions on how to e-mail them and establish contact.<P>How are things today?<P>All the best to you.<BR>--HBC

Mayo,<P>Not to make light of your situation and no disrespect but this sounds as if it could be a Harry Chapin song...<P>Seriously though, my initial gut reaction is this...<P>You are both married!! Period!!<P>You stated that this <B>feels</B> like a soul-mate thing going on...<P>You are falling in love with your ex-wife.<P>This will be nothing but detrimental to your wife...<P>IMHO it should stop completely including the yearly what's going on letters...I have a hunch the Harley's will tell you the same...<P>If you concider this an EA with your ex than it is, and we can help you get your marriage back on track...<P>If you are feeling any withdrawl from your ex then you are manipulating your wife into haveing the yearly letter...<P>Think about it...<P>I am in no way flamming you just giving my gut reaction, I think you can put your marriage back on track and continue again living how you were but you do have some work and hard choices ahead of you...<P>Take care,<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

Bill,<P>Thanks for digging down through the file over here to find me. I guess I want my cake and eat it too...why not? If you'll go over to Emotional Needs forum and find "ENs only EA w/ ex-spouse can meet"...someone helped me transfer over there where I've been getting more responses.<P>You're right on all points. My selfish and prideful nature (that I'm a special case, that Harley's rules don't totally apply to me, that there is something they've missed, and that I know more than anyone else) keeps me dangling and "on pause" in no man's land. Actually there is no "no man's land". "Your either with me or against me." Either I'm hurting my wife or I'm not. And she is hurting. If it weren't for the well-being of everyone in 2 families, I wouldn't sweat it at all. <P>So please head on over to the other forum. Interesting stuff...<P>Thx

<B>My selfish and prideful nature (that I'm a special case, that Harley's rules don't totally apply to me, that there is something they've missed, and that I know more...</B><P>Mayo, are you <I> absolutely sure</I> you aren't married to me and live in my house??<P>This is the trademark statement of my H (a lot of capricorns, actually)<BR>Applying the Harley principles are harder than it seems. Even I take what suits me and apply it, while discarding the suggestions that I feel would not work in my situation. <P>Recognizing that you are selfish and prideful, admitting you have faults (my H will admit this, but then say, "I am always right until proven otherwise)is a good start.<BR>SO, I am going to prove to you that your marriage is worth saving, and you can DITCH THIS EX goodbye!<BR>*she cheated on you<BR>*now is considering cheating again (with you?)<BR>*the past is in the past for a reason<BR>*you being a man of forward thinking, why would you go there?<BR>*Your current wife loves you and would probaby try her damndest to mee this void-if you told her<BR>*in your greatest time of need, turn to God, if you don't want to do that, turn to your wife, if she isn't there, write a letter and pretend she is there<BR>(don't get on the internet and write to ex)<BR>*you are special and unique, so why follow the trend of being one of the 66% that cheat? (men)<BR>DId you hear that new statistic?<BR>*You ar so much more than a fling, a flirtation<BR>you think of things for the long haul<BR>Do you thin kit iwll be easier to leave everyithng behind, and start new?<BR>(you can do this)<BR> <BR>Carina<P><BR>

Carina,<P>I told you H and I are clones!<P>You are married to someone who is loving, sincere, loyal, sensitive, compassionate and passionate, and has a profundity for good that you have not even begun to fathom...keep on enjoying the discovery.<P>On our tombstones if H and I should be so lucky, no simpler, finer eulogy will be written: Here lies a good man.<P>Talk to you later...<P>Mayo<p>[This message has been edited by Mayo (edited April 16, 2001).]

Carina,<P>More thoughts:<P>Why when you are married to someone and going through troubles, all of this is worth saving, that she is still the best thing in the world for me?<P>Then when you become divorced, she automatically is the devil herself and we have to make up "Dis"es to convince ourselves that she wasn't ever worth my time or attention? It is such a paradox. My feelings can't do a 180, ESPECIALLY to someone you were married to. <P>I think having had girlfriends who I was infatuated with in my younger years, that it just takes time to have them fade into their proper perspective from my point of view. Not all feelings towards them have to be negative, just proper. The more you're involved with someone, the harder the separation is going to be, because neither of you want to get hurt or inflict hurt.<P>Love ya,<P>Mayo<p>[This message has been edited by Mayo (edited April 18, 2001).]

Mayo, if you fall under the personality type of my H (and heck, why stop now, cause you two I think <I>were</I>separated at birth)he has always been a friendship-oriented person. Friendship is at the top of his EN's. So, when he sees an old flame, he automatically remmebers the kinship he experienced, which to him is more solid than any googly-eyed lovey feelings. He will talk with them openly about whatever he feels to discuss, since he likes to talk a lot (small talk mind you). WHat I am seeing, is perhaps you remembering the good friendship and closeness you had with your ex. YOu may not feel the flame and dagger throwing because you both are living in a fantasy together. (Fantasies are always better than reality, so I hear )<P>My husband use to own a business, in our early years together. One time his ex came in to say hello. She offered to take him out for dinner, and catch up. He was excited and more than willing to take her up on it (she modelled for a short time) but then actually, for by what grace I don't know, called me and asked if it was ok. Of course I very VERY strongly objected....and he actually accepted it, came to my place, and didn't whine about it.<P>Look at this as a test-a personal test of integrity. Why go there, when that road has already been travelled? It was a long time ago. <P>I think maybe it is time that you open up some of the details and the extent of the relations with the ex to us. <BR>It would help me to talk you out of it later.. <BR>But seriously, have you sent pictures? Emailed how often>?<BR>I think you get the idea.<BR>C'mon, gimme the dirt <P>Carina

oh, and one more thing. (thought this may help)<BR>My first and most true of love's was when I was a teen, and let me tell you, this guy was something else. I love my husband of course, but this guy holds a place in my heart that no one I think will ever have. He was my perfect type-stocky, dark hair, baby blue eyes..reminded me of my father. He was sensitive and sweet, used to send me love poems and letters, call and talk to me for hours. I still remember his birthday-November 27. We were most indeed if there were ever such a thing-soul mates. OOoohhh YEEssss.<BR>Of course, at that time I was immature, and he lived about a half and hour away, so I (gulp) dated a few other boys and told him about it afterwards. Of course, he dumped me, and I know I hurt him a lot. I actually went to his house a year later and tried to talk with him, but his new girlfriend wasn't so impressed about THAT. When I became pregnant with my first son, I felt inclined to call him, and did so. I ran into a mutual friend of ours a few years back, and found out his job profession-a cop. (did I mention I have a very strong inclination towards men in uniform) All of a sudden my thoughts ventured to him and me, him in his sexy uniform coming home and..uh, well..<BR>you get the point <BR>We both have a very dtrong sense of right and wrong, and believe in honesty. He wanted to become a lawyer or a cop, and me a lawyer or a teacher. We dreamed so much together. It was the best time of my life. But, things went wrong, and I know I will never get them back. Now, if HE WERE to just all of a sudden pop his face back into my life and actually show interest in me..IKES><BR>I can seriously feel your pain and confusion here. I am muddling around in this sensation, and boy, it is a tough call. I mean, if you really REALLY believe that this woman is THE ONE...what is stopping you from throwing away your marriage, her throwing away the marriage she is in...<P>WHAT is stopping you both? <BR>OK. Assgnment. In a 500 word essay, I want the reasons why you should not go forth with this.<BR>Due on my desk by Monday.<BR> <BR>C

Carina,<P>Did I tell you I'm in the National Guard and I've got a whole closet full of uniforms?? Wanna play Army? I've also been in the Marines and the Air Force. What's your flavor? <P>I see what you're doin, ya know...I didn't know I was taking a class in reverse psychology, Teach.... Okay, I'll see what I can pull together by Monday, except I have to go protect the nation this weekend...I'm on leave again Monday.... <P>Mayo<P><BR>

<<<<<<<<<groan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><BR>I knew it.<BR>WEll, I am going to waive my right to answer that question, but I will take the answer on Monday.<P>And, hey! please offer some words of advice on Emotional Needs Forum...because I am really going low right now. <BR>Damn H...<BR>Anyhow, talk to you later, ok?<BR>Carina

I read your response on the other board to my post. Interesting reading, that is for sure. You remind me a lot of my H, saying the things that he cannot, though. It hurts me SO MUCH, because I want to give to him, and where along the way he felt obligated to give in return..I dunno. (ok, perlaps from making demands, something he doesn't like)<P>I am feeling like my marriage is lost at sea. I have tried to rescue it so many times, and with each time he views it as an attempt to rescue him. He knows I can speak more openly, and he cannot. I do not chastise him for it, for I know this could change with time. But I think our perceptions and signals are fuzzy. I don't know, I guess I shouldn't speak for him.<P>So, how do I feel? You said that I may be trying too hard. All I want is a marriage where my H shows love for me. WHat am I doing wrong? By trying? <BR>You also said that the seven year anniversary shouldn't matter. It is the anniversary of our first date...that we have "been a couple" for seven years. Hey, I don't expect a major party, with a limo and fancy dinner...just an acknowledgment and appreciation for the time we have spent.<P>Our anniversary (wedding) is coming up in two weeks. I always have to plan things. He acts like he doesn't care. Our first anniversary, we had that "What do you wanna do" fight. Last year, I didn't want to face that again, so I planned a weekend getaway at a posh resort up North. We did recreational activities (his 2nd top EN) and he ignored me once we hit the hotel room. No sex, no nothing. Just a lot of cycling and sore legs afterwards.<BR><sigh><BR>I feel terrible and lonely, afraid that somewhere I have made a terrible mess of our marriage, and I would do anything to make it better-to get it back. I care about him so much, I really do! He is the strength to every weakness I have. He is my strength. And I don't want it to end, but he can't seem to love me! I feel so empty and lonely and unfulfilled and neglected....I hate being miserable like this, and I hate myself for feeling this way about my husband. I wish there was a magic wand...<BR>OK, enough wishing.<P>Look, what do you think? I mean, you seem to be able to relate pretty well to him, and how would you feel in his shoes? Married to a Saggitarius who is chatty and sociable, sweet and adventurous, tenderhearted and loving....but also easily hurt and confused by the relationship, needs to have sex on a regular basis, and can be disorganized at times?<P>help!<BR>Carina

Okay Carina, I'll try to list the negatives before I have to go off and save our country (AND hemisphere, mind you) this weekend.<P>My biggest negative would be the thought that after we had jumped through an impossible number of hoops to get back together that she would leave me AGAIN! Man, that's a real drawback. <P>Others would be: Immediate poverty: Divorce is always poverty-laden. We would truly be kicked out of our Gardens of Eden and left in our own poor world. A Plan B would kill me, even if I never was leaving. <P>Alienation of affection charges: X's H is a colonel in the US Army. As a lowly blue collar enlisted man, I would be up on some serious charges, even if it never got to adultery. (She leaving me for a more "successful" man eventually....it grates, when she was the one who wanted me in the first relationship). <P>Where would we go, what would we do? I have no clue at this point. It's still in the love fantasy stage. I can't leave where I am to go to her because I am the custodial parent who needs to give 2nd X access to our kids. <P>I would break my wife's heart and she's done nothing to deserve this. (It was simply that my X and I have huge chunks of each other's emotional self out there.)<P>My X would probably lose all the admiration and respect she has for me right now should I really try to carry it out. X said her biggest fear is that she would again be the cause of broken marriage for me. That would devastate her actually; she wants to know that her character is way beyond ever doing something like that again. X knows of the love yet the restraint I'm able to show at this time. Like it's the best of both worlds. My current wife loses all respect for me when I pursue this friendship at all or anything in connection with it. <P>We would have differing lifestyles because of religion that we would have to make untried adjustments to.<P>Her children would HATE me for breaking up their family. My family would further look at me with jaundiced eye for the marriage decisions I make. <P>X will take her proper safe place in my life if I just give it time. <P>I can wait until we are both widowed again and we by chance find out that each other is available. Much easier.....<P>I think those are the major points. BTW, I probably emailed her on the average at least once a day over six months. Love was expressed, more than familial love I think, though not in any sexual overtones. A lot of it was expressing love out of sorrow for having hurt each other so long ago. We exchanged photos and cards and books. We left it as a deep and abiding friendship. We knew we still liked each other. <P>I hope this gives you a better picture of the situation...Have a great weekend, eh....<P>I'll be thinkin' of ya while at drill.<P>Mayo<P><p>[This message has been edited by Mayo (edited April 22, 2001).]

Mayo, first of all, thank you for writing that! Do you feel any better, or see where your committment lies? You know what you have to do. Hoping that fate will put your ex where she belongs is not an option-it is just tempting Her, glorious fate!<BR>So, why NOT simply say goodbye, and leave this woman's emails alone? Saying goodbye on a friendly note, and it was nice to hear from you...THAT would be taking control of fate. You know there is no future with this woman. At least not in the next twenty years or so. It is up to you, and I understand how you feel about telling her goodbye after relishing the pleasant times you both had....it is painful.<BR>I know also that you are a pretty level-headed person, coming from your posts, and you wuldn't want your wife "finding" any of those emails and thinking you are in a full-fledged affair! Better to leve it in the past, move on, and work on getting your needs met wit hyour current wife.<P>There is no easy way out, but if you try to find the answer in the eyes of your wife, one day you may see it was staring at you all along....<P>Take care, friend<BR>Carina

Carina, <P>I feel better because of a book I finsihed reading this weekend. It's called "Should We Stay Together?" by Jeffry Larson (I think I mentioned it to you before). If I had read this 30 years ago, there may have been a chance we never would have gotten married due to the premarital pregnancy. When he asks the question "Would you have gotten married had it not been for the premarital pregnancy? of course the answer would have been "No". There were a lot of other negatives, but I played the hero and was stoic. In the long run the marriage was for the wrong reasons. <P>There were so many strikes against our relationship at that time that a happy marriage would have been highly doubtful Had we known what makes a happy marriage back then, we hopefully never would have decided to go in that direction. I am starting to FEEL the soundness of my X and I not being together. That happy marriages are not a result of romantic feelings, but of a total package of commitment to each other, which we did not have at that time, and which we really don't have now either.<P>It is time to discover the goldmine I married and build on some pretty solid qualities. Donut.....not the hole.<P>Mayo

I just found out yesterday that my 18-year old D who has been living with a guy for about two months is pregnant. I'm starting to think that I had to reexamine my OWN episode so that I knew exactly how to counsel with her, as is surely going to happen in the near future. So this whole exercise was for a reason! I know exactly where I stand on the issues..number one, that you don't get married just because you are pg.

Hi Mayo, I am sorry I didnt see this response earlier....I broke my wrist last night so i am typing with my left hand. I am going to be home from work for awhile, so you know i will be lingering. I have so much to tel...sigh, little tiring on this hand to start writing a novella! Your daughter is pregnant-wow. That is defionately a change f events. I am glad you have been reevaluating your marriage and your first marriage to the OW as well. You will be able to provide a stronger sounding support to her than if your hea was fogged with emotion, as it was before. **fogged may be a bad word, but you dont know ow lonbg it takjes to type with one hand. <P>Try to be supportive and ask her what she wants to do, without jumping to assumptions.. let her take the role and follow her..she may or may not ask for your Advice regarding marriage, but lketting her know that you will be supportive and not judge her, either way...and relating that very personal experience to her would help. Some ppl. get married and it works out fine, but 99 percent of the time , both are too immature to really get a handle on the relAtionship, bcse. they are dealing with their own dilemmas-tough one. She is going to need all the support she can get-and well, congrats to you, papa! (soon to be! )<P>carina