Maybe it's just because I **can** sit here for a few hours a day and read -- but I've noticed something that concerns me.<P>There are many, many newcomers...<P>...and they are primarily the ones answering the other newcomers. <P>"We" (the old-timers) have moved on with our lives with our spouses, or moved to the D/D board, or just moved on and check in occasionally. Gone are the days of <B>K</B> telling everyone who would listen to call the Harley's, or of <B>Lostva</B> saying, "Hon, Plan A is working for me, hang in there"... or <B>NSR</B> saying, "...sadly, I am headed there too..."<P>...yes, they show up now and again, but they have LIVES out there and it was time to focus on that instead of hanging out here.<P>Personally, I go to the ones who are throwing their marriages away for an OP...<P>... or don't want a divorce, but are doing all the WRONG, WRONG, WRONG things, and will get one if they keep on that road... I speak from hindsight. <P>I also can speak to those who get involved in a new relationship. But I can only give lip-service regarding Plan A or B -- I didn't do too well at either of them -- and for those that know me, you know I don't really have a *right* to discuss MB principles (although I do sometimes sneak some in).<P>So, what I'm seeing is one person coming on, saying how awful their marriage is, and when a <B>Sheba</B> might have come on and said, "Oh honey, you need to Plan A him home"... instead they're getting, from someone who hasn't studied the principles at all, "Honey, Get rid of him."<P>I have no idea how to fix this, or what to do. I'm only here so much because I am not working outside the home right now... I finish the laundry, the dishes, the preening and then I come here.<P>Any ideas??<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 11, 2001).]

Ya know what, Sheryl??<P>I've been thinking the same thing!! <P>When I came to MB almost 16 months ago, not one person told me to quit or give up! Everyone encouraged me and told me to "hang in there!"! (Well, until I told the WHOLE truth about my marriage) Now, so many are doing just the opposite.<P>I did plan A and still do to a certain extent for the kids' benefit. I never went into an official plan B even though I rarely talk to my exH. <P>Let's all try together to get this place back on the right track!<P>Yes, I may be getting a divorce, but I don't consider myself a failure.<P>Mitzi <P>

I guess in "MB" time I am brand new, but I have given feedback to other new posters occasionally. Although I do not claim to have mastered the principles taught here, sometimes I run across something else. An example would be from a member who was afraid of showng any emotion that would invoke his wife's anger. Well, I may be new here, but I had 7 years worth of that, so I think I was able to offer something useful. You never know what each of us may know...<P>Robyn

Hey <B>Mitz</B>!! I know... maybe bringing this up will help, eh??<P><B>Robyn</B>, Please do not misunderstand... we ALL have valuable insights to offer... that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that when **I** came here, in August 1999, this place was filled with (for lack of a better term) Harley-ites who espoused the principles used by the Harley's. If I came on and boo-hoo'd about my then-H not meeting my needs, someone would invariably (sp?) come on and ask, "Are you meeting his?" Smack!!! That's what I needed to hear. What I'm seeing now is someone saying "My H is not meeting my needs" and someone else, usually a VERY newcomer who hasn't read anything on this site, will say, "You deserve better, get rid of him." The point is, someone in an affair is NOT IN THEIR RIGHT MIND and OF COURSE the betrayed spouse deserves better!! But how to get it without destroying the family?? That's where the CONCEPTS come in.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Sheryl -- You know, you're right. The tone of the board has changed a lot in the past few years.<P>This may sound like an excuse, but for me, I think a lot of it has to do with all the "new" forums. . .Remember when we started here? There was one place to come, you got involved with all levels / stages of this rollercoaster ride, and everyone (ok, there were some exceptions) was here to fight for their marriages. It was very rare back then for advice to be given advising someone to simply give up.<P>I guess I am just as guilty as the other Old Timers who are lurking. I can't make promises, but I will try to do better.<P>God Bless

Good grief, it's <B>ES</B> <P>Hey, the intent was not to make you or anyone feel "guilty" because Lord knows we do enough of that... I'm just wondering what we CAN do to REALLY help people. <P>On the threads I do answer (and I often stick to the "parties" or threads where I have intimate knowledge, like I said above) I am seen as somewhat of a hard-nose because I don't let anyone "get away" with stuff -- like when they say, "I don't deserve this, therefore I will divorce" and it's only been three days since discovery, you know?<P>I'm really just trying to get "us" (the Oldies) to put our heads together and see what we can come up with.<P>Say hey to your wife for me!! I saw a thread a month or so ago and answered it, but you guys didn't come back on it... hoping all is well with you two.<P> <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

NB,<P>I agree with you. I haven't posted to many of the newcomers because I am afraid my own bitterness will seep over to them. I want to be an encourager. <P>Rick37 needs to get in here. He always posts good Plan A advice & he has done a pretty good Plan A. So Rick where are you?<P>NB, thanks for bringing this up. I love how you tell people like it is. You have been on all sides of these issues & you want to help others with what you have learned. While I hope I would not make some of the choices you have made, I admire the fact that you admit to them, have learned from them & want to help other avoid the potholes on this road. Thanks for all your sharing, your advice, your words of encouragement. Wishing you all the happiness you so richly deserve. :<P><p>[This message has been edited by sing (edited April 11, 2001).]

Of course people move on it is completely normal I mean why would someone spend time in a place of pain? These boards will continue to exist with or w/o oldtimers and newcomers will muddle thru somehow. The point it is not someone's "job" to somehow direct the content or tone of the posts here. There is a recent trend of "political correctness" that I find disturbing but hopefully this board will self-correct and the pc police will move on.

Hi <B>sing</B> <P>Thank you for the kind words!<P><B>KalGrl</B>,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KalGrl:<BR><B>Of course people move on it is completely normal I mean why would someone spend time in a place of pain? These boards will continue to exist with or w/o oldtimers and newcomers will muddle thru somehow. The point it is not someone's "job" to somehow direct the content or tone of the posts here. There is a recent trend of "political correctness" that I find disturbing but hopefully this board will self-correct and the pc police will move on.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>**I'm** the PC Police? <P>Well, that's not what I'm striving for, at all. <P>Did you read what I wrote above, about how it used to be when someone would come on? It's just that we used to ENCOURAGE marriage at all costs. Now, it just seems like someone comes on, complains about how hard it is, and someone says "get out" before saying, "have you tried what the Harley's suggest"... that's all...<P>You've been around for a while. I wouldn't think that I'd offend you with this.<P>I'm sorry about that, truly.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 11, 2001).]

Did I say you were the PC police? My point is that this is an open forum and there is a moderator if things get out of hand. Old timers should not feel guilty if they have a life and can't spend a lot of time here. There are newcomers who will eventually becomes oldtimers. I have been coming here a long time and I actually prefer the way things are now except the PC stuff that has been happening of late.

Sheryl, you’ve truly got nothing to apologize for. <P>I’ve seen these phases happen a couple times here. Unfortunately, there ARE lulls where a lot of the encouragement necessary for helping some of the newer folks is lacking. It’s very sad that there is a revolving door around here, and as infidelity isn’t going anywhere, there will always be people in need of advice on how to save their marriage and build (not REbuild) the life they always should have had.<P>But people DO need to move on. I’ve seen so many people make the same mistakes going through that revolving door, never listening to others who have gone through <B>exactly</B> the same thing. Sadly, these mistakes have to be lived, and too many times I’ve seen experience ignored. While it would be nice to have people well-versed in the most promising principles for saving marriages I ever found around to help, being ignored time and again, knowing what will come next and wishing against all hope they would open their eyes is frustrating. Even more frustrating is seeing them leave in defeat just as a new group comes along who could learn so much from what THEY have gone through... only knowing they would be ignored as well.<P>For myself, of course, I have no real LIVING advice on how to recover from the aftermath of an affair, as I was the WS. I may not have had to Plan A my W from the addiction of an affair, but I sure had to Plan A her back from the brink of the precipice to which I pushed her. Had to prove to her our marriage was worth saving in the aftermath, by avoiding LoveBusters and meeting as many Emotional Needs as possible. <P>A long and hard road. I keep trying to get away from MB myself, and I think once I do, I’ll be able to truly have completed my journey. Just waiting on Chris, and trying not to get sucked into too many of the horrible stories I have seen all too many times in the last 2&1/2 years.<P>I really think it’s just a lull, Sheryl... it’ll pass, and there will always be a good group of people who believe in saving marriages willing to help. The names will change, and the messages may not be as imperative as they once were, but I myself hold full faith in the principles <B>themselves.</B> Nothing preaches better than the successes Dr Harley and his children have had.<P><BR>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited April 11, 2001).]

Good post, NB, and valid points.<P>I do wish that some of the newer folks would do their reading BEFORE coming in here; this board is supposed to be for support in using the MB principles, and I fear that some people are either getting affirmation that their affairs are OK from some people who may not have done their homework, or else are getting admonished to file for divorce when it may not be necessary.<P>I tend to be very careful about which situations I post to. We all have our specialties; mine is "inappropriate friendships." Because my H was not involved in a full blown EA/PA, but rather in an overly intense emotional connection that never really crossed the line, and because I had such quick results, I don't feel it's fair for me to speak to those enduring full-blown affairs.

<B>Hi NB and ES</B> ,<P>Hi lady and gent, so nice to see you around again, and yes <B> New Beginning </B> I have seen you posting at the site more. I just haven't had much opportunity to reply to the same threads you are for the following reasons...<P>I lurk here a bunch and do try and post on the threads where I feel my situation or encouragement can help. I also have a bit of contact with a few of the new comers here privately through e-mail...just to do that and encourage. I reply to these posts because I feel I should give back what I got and when I came here in March of 1999 and finally got the courage to register (probably more from desperation) in May of 1999. So many people encouraged me. I feel the only right thing to do is try and give back. Of course you old timers know how emotionally draining staying here can be. It keeps you somewhat in limbo with our own recovery and keeps your thoughts on all of this. <P>I have to agree with <B>Empty Shell</B> though and a lot of the problem is the board being broken up in so many forums. Not that they don't have value, as they do. I know I am usually responding on the "Recovery Forum." The largest problem is there are only so many hours in a day. With so many forums it is just about impossible to keep up on them all. I honestly don't know how our precious <B>NSR</B> did it for so long.<P>I don't answer threads where I feel that I can't help, encourage or pull from my own personal experience to give for instances. <P>I think you'll find a lot of people posting in the forums where they are at in their own personal journeys at this time. I see <B>FHL</B> is on the "Emotional Needs" forum a bit, and <B>NSR</B> is on the "Divorcing/Divorced" forum some. I believe he is also extremely busy keeping up his never ending mission of updating those wonderful "Note worthy" threads, e-mail threads, profile threads and etc. etc. etc. On recovery you will see <B>HGBrawner</B> who also seemingly never gets tired posting to people in recovery. I have seen <B>NerlyCrzy</B> and <B>AlmostHappy</B> post their wonderful recovery stories and encouragement to all. I see <B>CL</B> on her periodically too. Actually she has been responding to a thread where a "newbie" reached out to her. <B>peppermint</B> is posting too and she seems to be here often trying to encourage others as well. I know I have missed mentioning a few others that are actively trying to encourage and help out the newbies. I also miss some of the people I mentioned in my thank you post a while ago. Like where in the heck is <B>Lone Star</B> and a bunch of others? I am hoping and praying they are living wonderfully full happy lives. I even saw our dear sweet <B>TNT</B> here on a thread today I believe!<P>I think another problem is when we "old timers" are in places in our lives that aren't very comfortable or we are struggling with something, well that we only lurk and don't respond much. We feel that we are inadequate to post. Life even in recovery, whether that means healing a marriage or having to move on without a choice, is an uphill battle.<P>I for one feel that Harley's principles are the only way to go. I think they are sound but tough ways to heal a marriage. The thing about the Harley principles is that they need to become a way of life. Just like a diet should be a diet to loose weight but be a life style you adopt.<P>The honey get rid of him, you referred to is indeed a travesty and not what this site is about at all. Too many people here are allowing their "takers" to take over and not working on that huge task of keeping their "givers" in the forefront.<P>So I applaud both of your efforts to get this site back on what we think is the right track. It takes many people to do that. I hope other "old timers" or shall I say the "alumni" of this site will come forward and reply to threads they feel they can help on.<P>The other reason I don't post much here anymore is just like this response is, I say too much! Go on and on! Hard to post much when you spend such an exorbitant amount of time on one thread. Oh well I guess when you feel passionate about a subject, then you just are right?<P>I love you guys, and hope and pray that this site does get back to more of the Harleys principles. No matter what way your journey goes, you do end up recovering, either with your mate or not. We used to have a whole lot of fun here along with all our tears, pain and anguish. The encouragement here is what got me through all of this and I believe with all my heart that is why God directed me here.<P>Hugs,<P><BR>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><P>PS I just read that there's a party going on here and although I have to relinquish the computer to my daughters boyfriend, I am going there to read and join in. Yeah, a party. <p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited April 11, 2001).]

<B>Kalgrl</B>,<P>Again, I'm sorry. <P><B>WhoDat</B>,<P>Oh **sigh** I know you're right... and Lord knows how often I have tried to leave -- unsuccessfully, of course!<P>It's the message I see spouted lately, not the people... but you know that. And, of course I know you're right (again!) when you say that the names will change. That's life, huh?<P>I agree about the Harley's... it wasn't them that ended my marriage, or the fact that their concepts didn't work. I am human, and my ex-H was human, and both of us are/were VERY strong-willed. Things might have turned out differently... but they didn't. All I can say now is that I want to help those I can help, treat my ex-H with respect (which is why I rarely dog him on these boards) and build a successful relationship with the new person in my life using the concepts I should have used before.<P>Take care, WhoDat... and it is SO NICE to see you!! <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

This is the first post I read after a long hiatus....<P>I hope people still find love and encouragement here...and I hope I can help more than hinder.<P>All the best.<P>--HBC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dazed and Confused:<BR><B>Good post, NB, and valid points.<P>I do wish that some of the newer folks would do their reading BEFORE coming in here; this board is supposed to be for support in using the MB principles, and I fear that some people are either getting affirmation that their affairs are OK from some people who may not have done their homework, or else are getting admonished to file for divorce when it may not be necessary.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Yes!! This is what I was worried about too. Thank you for doing a better job of articulating it!!<P>Nice to see you too, D&C <P>Hi <B>Samantha</B>,<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I have to agree with Empty Shell though and a lot of the problem is the board being broken up in so many forums. Not that they don't have value, as they do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>This was brought up on another thread, and TheStudent said the same thing. I agreed with her, but there were MANY who did not!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Like where in the heck is Lone Star and a bunch of others? I am hoping and praying they are living wonderfully full happy lives. I even saw our dear sweet TNT here on a thread today I believe!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Oh, I wonder about everyone too!!! Yes, I saw TNT somewhere too!! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I think another problem is when we "old timers" are in places in our lives that aren't very comfortable or we are struggling with something, well that we only lurk and don't respond much. We feel that we are inadequate to post. Life even in recovery, whether that means healing a marriage or having to move on without a choice, is an uphill battle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Oh yes, I soooo agree. I lurked for about a two week period after having not logged in at all for four months. I knew that my situation would upset some, even sicken some. As I wrote my update, I was scared... but a funny thing happened... I was SUPPORTED (for the most part) and it was WONDERFUL. I am thinking again that I should just bow out... after all, I have moved on... I just think that I can help people... <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>The other reason I don't post much here anymore is just like this response is, I say too much! Go on and on!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Hey!! Me too!!! <P>Hugs back atcha!!<P>Hi <B>HurtButCoping</B>,<P>An "oldtimer" checks in after a LOOOOONG vacation, eh? Nice to see you!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I hope people still find love and encouragement here...and I hope I can help more than hinder.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>God, me too!!! I **think** they do, though.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

<--------------------digging in her pocket to try and find her 2 cents worth <P>I am going to confess!!!!! Look out.<P>I don't do a whole lot of posting unless I can say only positive things-ok, almost always that is.<P>I think the Harley principles are great-fantastic-wholesome-and awesome!!!! But this is my second marriage. The first one was awful and I always think if I had come here back then I would have only been hurting myself more trying to follow these principles. My ex didn't care-plain and simple. Sometimes-sadly-some people do need to let go of a terrible relationship.<P>Another reason I don't come here much is because each time I read a newbies psot I cringe inside. The hurt floods back fresh as day 1. As far as I have come I have not yet distanced myself from all the pain. And of course when I feel those feelings start moving in my mind says RUN.<P>But I will do my best to help out and I appreciate your stepping up to say what you did. <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

<B>heartache</B>,<P>Thanks for 'diggin' deep' for that two cents... it was certainly worth a buck or two though!!! <P>Thanks too for the kind words...<P><B>HEY, FOR ANYONE STILL READING</B><P>There is a post by "FoolishKat" that warrents attention. I was thinking as I read it that THIS is where that line between Plan A and Plan B blur...the Harley's Plan B is too scary for many to try... so the betrayed spouse forgives until they don't have it in them to forgive anymore... and they end up losing their love -- depleting the love bank -- and then they reach out for love anywhere they can get it.<P>We've seen it a few times around here, haven't we? In fact, some would say that **I** did just that.<P>So, is it the Plan's that falter, or just plain old human nature???<P>Thoughts??<P>**and no, I am not going back on my ADMIRATION of the Harley's concepts or their WONDERFUL work.**<P><BR>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 11, 2001).]

Hey, I thought it was just me....my views seems to be so different from everyone elses...I've not been here as long as some of you guys but I too have noticed the difference.<P>I also agree about the newbies not getting acquainted with the principles first....and too many newbies are giving up after a few weeks because they are not getting the kind of encouragement or maybe even gentle chides on "following the prinicples' they need. <P>I too feel hesitate to give advise since I'm a year into Plan A and still holding but I still support the principles. I also have noticed again that many posts are going unanswered or with only 1 or 2 replies. If I don't reply to a post it's because I don't think I have anything to advise the poster or anything new to offer....but there is always someone who could answered and should...it's our way of giving back to those who were there when we needed help....don't you think?<P><BR>Faye <BR>

As someone fairly new here(d-day was 8 weeks ago) I would just like to say that I always wish for replies from someone who's been through more than me, who has learned more and has some real advise to offer me. I would love to see more postings from the older and wiser ones.I have often been tempted to post under recovery instead of General Questions for this reason but feel I don't really belong there.