SKM,<BR>Beautifully and eloquently said! <P>I think I do understand what cjack meant by saying that too many churches have focused so much on forgiveness that they seem to almost be condoning the sin. There is a fine line between telling someone that God loves them just as they are to try to reach out to them and thereby seeming to condone their sin. We live in a society today where many people have no church background at all in their lives. Where 50 years ago, it was almost unheard of not to raise your children with a spiritual foundation, today many families have never been in church or had any spiritual "instruction."<P>So, to reach this segment of the community, churches have tried to approach them "right where they live." Certainly very few people would be drawn to a place that is constantly preaching "hellfire and damnation", but many are drawn to a place where love is the focus and where they are made to feel welcome and included. The problem comes in when we continue to preach God's love without telling the rest of the story. God does love each one of us and is willing to accept us into his family no matter what our past is. But He does not love the sin in our lives. When we come to him and are saved there must be a change....a turning away from the sin of the past and toward a life centered in Jesus in the future. It doesn't mean we will be perfect and never make a mistake or sin again, but it does mean that we have a God who will love us and forgive us and guide us back to the path He wants us to walk after we fall. It means that out of our love for Him and His guidance in our lives we work very hard not to sin and our hearts are broken when we do....that's called "conviction". <P>Yes, too many people have taken the promise of forgiveness to be carte blance to sin throughout their lives, planning on a deathbed salvation experience. The problem is that none of us knows when we will die. There is no guarantee of having the chance to be saved and forgiven. And there is a very real message from God in the Bible that there is danger in hardening your heart to His message of salvation to a point where He will not hear your cries when you are facing an eternity without Him.<P>The problem in too many churches is that we are focusing on each other to be our spiritual guides rather than on the only One who is qualified to do it....Jesus Christ. We will always be disappointed in our expectations of each other, but we will never be disappointed in Him.<P>Yes, I find it a little scary to think that I might share heaven with people like Adolph Hitler or Ted Bundy or Timothy McVeigh...people whose crimes are so hideous that I can't imagine that they would be in heaven.....and that I might not share heaven with some of the people I know and love who are good, kind-hearted people. But the reality is that without salvation...being born again....none of us enters heaven, no matter how kind or good we have been. I don't do good works or try to live a righteous life because I want to get into heaven. Those things are a by-product of the relationship I have with Jesus......I want to share what He has done for me with other people.<P>So, SKM, if people think you've gone off the deep end because of what you've experienced with your newfound relationship with Jesus Christ....hold my hand because I'm going with you! <P><BR><P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

NSR - Thanks, but really, I just see things so much clearly now, it's like God handed me a pair of glasses or something. But, even confession, believe it or not. I was always afraid to go to confession as a kid, no other Christians had to go to confession, so as an adult I kind of rationalized away the importance (for me anyway) of confession. I just thought it was a scary process designed to humiliate us. Humble us, yes, humiliate us, no. Funny thing, though, I finally understood the sole purpose of confession after going to confess the A. Now I know why I need it, I need to know that I am forgiven. It doesn't mean that I won't be accountable, just forgiven. <P>It is like I was raised Catholic, but now I choose Catholicism. All along - ever since college - I kind of rationalized away this teaching, or thought well that's not important to me, and gradually, my religious beliefs looked like a picked-over buffet at Shoney's on a Sunday afternoon. And, that's not how it works, or at least how it shouldn't work, and now, I really see that what I truly believed in as a kid, I still believe in - and even more so now. But I lost sight of that because things of this world meant more to me than the things that really matter. It really does feel like I'm at home when I go to church now, but even better, I feel like I am living my life the way God intended - FINALLY. It doesn't mean that I won't ever mess up again, but I know my chances are better now that God lives within my heart and not "out there somewhere."<P><BR>

The heartfelt discussion is inspiring.<P>When I talk to the Priest, should I ask directly for his intervention, just be a confidential informant and let him choose his actions, or be seeking guidance? How do I approach this? The only thing I know how to do is to be open and honest. Why would he believe my story - it's so bizaar!<P>Dave

Dave -<P>I think I would go with the "seeking guidance" approach, but be prepared to be completely honest because the priest will probably want to know why you are approaching him for advice/counsel and not your own or other church leader.<P>I think I would go with an open mind, to understand, and then explain why you need this information, that you don't want to cause your wife any additional pain - that you don't want to LB (I'm sure you'll have to explain that one), and just see if he recommends anything. Be open and honest, you cannot go wrong there. You're just going to understand, not to point fingers necessarily, but that you're at your wits end.

Forgive me for intruding, and perhaps I should stay out since I am not Catholic, but....<P>NSR (Jim), SKM....<BR>What exactly is the point of telling the parish priest about the affair? <P>If you are suggesting that WAT go to him for support and comfort, I agree completely.... But it almost sounds as though you are telling him to get the priest on "his side"....<P>The WS and the OM both know they are doing wrong. What good would it do to make them feel uncomfortable in church? <P>Doesn't Paul write that a Christian should be less concerned with the mote in his neighbor's eye than with the timber in his own?<P>I guess I'm a fine one to talk...<BR> ...a pagan betrayed turned wayward...<BR> ...I tend to think it all comes back to us anyway...<BR> <BR>But I don't understand how asking the parish priest to talk to the WS or the OM can do anything but give WAT a feeling of revenge.<P>Please understand that I do not wish to start an argument. I just don't understand the point of what you suggest.<P>Thank you.<P>Blessings.<BR>Kat =^^=

<B>cjack</B>...<BR>...I take no offense... ...and please don't take my post as an attack on you either.<BR>My tone may have been one of hasty defensiveness... and I apologize.<BR>I really just meant it as a point of clarification.<P>And it is true... so many Catholics (cafeteria-style) show the most reprehensible example of their hypocrisy. I honestly try not to judge the person... it is the <B><I>action</I></B> of scandal** they produce that judge... you must (with a well formed conscience). Only the Lord will judge the soul.<P>Again, I'm sorry if I offended you.<P><B>HGBrawner</B>...<BR>You are always so eloquent in responses. Your caring words for so many is allowing His graces to be spread where and when it is so badly needed.<P><B>SKM</B>...<BR>Wisdom comes with time and experience...<BR>The healing power of His forgiveness is awesome.<BR>I too have learned... by this experience... to truly cleanse myself of sins I had put into the back of my mind as "it's OK with God" things... even though I knew what the Chruch holds as truth... as it comes with <I><B>my</B></I> wisdom and understanding... so much to learn. The boundaries of that truth are not there to confine us... but to free us... not that we won't stray beyond them at times... but we need to learn how to use them as supports for reaching higher.<BR>This Lent in particular... I have learned to reach into myself and go beyond the shame of my failings... (and ohhhh yes... I too am a sinner)... to honestly and with humility to confess to my Lord... (yes... the concepts of "MB honesty" have helped me!)<BR>I do so look forward to <A HREF="http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=200887" TARGET=_blank>Devine Mercy Sunday</A> this coming Sunday.<P><B>Dave</B>...<BR>A priest will rarely, if ever, provide any form of "intervention" (for your W or OM)...<BR>Guidance for you... yes!<BR>Guidance for your W and OM too... yes!<BR>Perhaps some suggestions for you on how to/when to talk with your son!<BR>Don't think of your story as bizarre... it is all too common in Catholic circles... as much as in any other faith (divorce rates of Catholics are equal to the general population in the US).<BR>A priest is also <B>not</B> there to judge the person... ever...<BR>Comforting you... Caring for you!... that's why he's there for anyone (not just Catholics)!<BR>BTW: <B>very</B> few priests are qualified as "psychological/psychiatric" counselors...<BR>...don't expect that kind of interaction!<P><B>Kat =^^=</B>...<BR>Is this an attempt to "get the priest" on Dave's side?...<BR>...I don't think so.<BR>However; even the Harley's believe in sending messages to WSs through other than the Faithful Spouse(FS) {I do so much dislike "BS"}. Often in my counseling with Steve, he has mentioned (while I was in Plan A) that non-directed messages from my children, and in-laws are beneficial for a plausible Plan A. If taken to an extreme (i.e. "teaching <I>down the throat</I>" to the WS), it will become a <B>LB</B>! Although, softening the "guilt feeling" to the point of nothingness, tends to be an enabling mechanism for the affair. And the balance of such messages to "increase guilt" vs. "show caring" is a difficult one.<BR>There is fine line between "revenge" and "gentle correction"...<BR>...one as hard to discern as "separating the sin from the sinner"!<BR><B>Matthew 18:17-18</B>...If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector...<P>There is a time for correction... instead of backing off when you're not sure of your own righteousness... but not when the chance of scandal** is so great.<P>---------------------------------------------------<BR>**<BR>I mentioned "scandal" a few times...<BR>Please don't take it as the type of scandal due to conventional "gossiping"... (scandalous behavior being just a from of "inappropriateness")<P>It means (in the Catholic Church's view)...<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"...an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives <B>SCANDAL</B> becomes his neighbor's tempter (through imitation or through condoning the action). He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. <B>SCANDAL</B> is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense. (CCC#2284)... and... "Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of <B>SCANDAL</B> and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged."(CCC #2278)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... taken as an influence on other members of their families, or the parish community, but most especially when the influence touches the young.<P>Can this adulterous behavior/lifestyle lead to an influence on other members of their families, or the parish community, or especially touching the young?...<P><B>Luke 17:1</B>...And he said to his disciples, "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!<P><B>1 Corinthians 8:12</B>...Thus, sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.<P><B>Matthew 18:6</B>...but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.<P>A parish priest has an obligation to guard against this kind of scandal.<P>---------------------------------------------------<P>Love to all.<P> <P>Jim

KAT -<P>Dave and I have talked before on this issue. I don't go along with the idea of "getting his wife and the OM" in trouble with the church, but Dave had a lot a questions concerning the Catholic Church. It seems that his wife and his son are attending masses, and his son has already taken classes to receive the sacraments of initiation into the Catholic Church. I'm not really sure where his wife stands (and I'm sorry to talk about you in the third person, Dave), but my advice to talk to the priest was mainly to get some information on divorces, annulments and the like - so that Dave can be prepared - should his wife ask for an annulment or a divorce.<P>For me, I think Dave has a lot of questions concerning the Church's stance on adultery, divorce, remarriage - that I cannot answer for him, and defer to the priest to answer his questions. More than likely, though, the priest may want to know why Dave - who is not Catholic - has some many questions about divorce, annulment, the sacraments, etc. . . In which case, I think he needs to be honest about the reasons for which he is asking these questions - seemingly "out of the blue" from the priest's persepctive.<P>From my point of view, Dave's son is converting to the Catholic faith, and as a parent I think he is entitled to certain information about church procedure and policy. I also think that since his wife wants to "be Catholic" for whatever reasons, that it would be helpful for Dave to know what to expect should he wife ask for a D - and perhaps the priest could recommend sources of counseling for him and his wife.<P>I definitely did not recommend Dave go to the priest to gain support for his cause - but his cause is to save his marriage, and this is an another avenue which could provide some insight to Dave, to help him try to save his marriage. The priest may not even ask for names, the priest may not even know who they are - particuarly if it is a large parish, but from my perspective, I think it's kind of an information gathering resource for Dave - maybe there are more things he can try to help save his marriage. <P>For me, I guess, I never saw this as Dave pointing the finger, but Dave asking for honest advice, based on church doctrine. The reason I suggest Dave talk to a Catholic priest is so that he can understand, not blame. Dave's wife does not want to go to counseling, she does not want to even try to save her marriage, she thinks it was over a long time ago, and I still think she is grieving the loss of her son - and that's really the cause of her affair. And, I think Dave's wife is searching for spiritual guidance - right now it might now be with regard to her marriage - but one can hope the spiritual guidance she is seeking now will lead to - well, counseling with Dave.<P>It's a shot, and from my perspective, the WS perspective, some of us can use any help we can get. And, if the Catholic Church requires certain things before an annulment or a divorce is granted, it would do Dave well to know what his wife might be pursuing. I don't see it as revenge, I see it almost as a last ditch effort to save his marriage.<P>In addition to NSR's reference to Matthew 18:15-17, there are two others I'd like to share:<P>GAl. 6:1-2 "Dear Brothers, if a Christian is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help him back onto the right path, remembering that next time it might be one of you who is in the wrong. Share each other's troubles and problems, and so obey our Lord's command,<P>James 5:19-20 "Dear brothers, if anyone has slipped away from God and no longer trusts the Lord, and someone helps him understand the Truth again, that person who brings him back to God will have saved a wandering soul from death, brining about the forgiveness of his many sins."<P>The thing is, Dave's wife never recognized/or recognizes that she had/is having an affair. She doesn't realize that her actions are having a negative impact on her son, nor is she willing to seek counseling - if for no other reason to help Dave come to terms with the way that she feels. Basically, she's not even giving Dave a chance to change maybe those things that were wrong in their marriage, or to even give him a chance to make things better. She's kind of closed down, and maybe the priest - if nothing else could provide some insigth to Dave on how to proceed or how to help.<P>So, I guess that kind of clarifies what I was thinking. It may or may not be right, but I think that's up to Dave to consider, as well as the possible negative impact it could have.<BR> <P>

SKM - you accurately described my thoughts - better than I could.<P>I appreciate the discussion on my behalf. I intend to perform this "research" and I will post what happens.<P>Dave

SKM, NSR, and WAT: (A regular alphabet soup here! )<P>I did not have the background into WAT's situation. If it is honest information he seeks, I have no problems with what you have suggested, SKM and NSR.<P>From WAT's original post, I saw someone who was rhetorically wondering how anyone could claim membership in a group that claims to know The Way and yet do such things as cheat on a spouse... I just saw a pain-filled "why" and not a genuine quest for information. WAT, from your latest reply it would seem I misread that and I'm sorry.<P>I don't want to go against anything the Harleys suggest, after all they undoubtedly have more successful marriages to their credit than I do, but I have always wondered about the wisdom of someone (or some group) going and telling people the error of their ways. I guess I just keep thinking of the church leaders trying to get Luther or Galileo to recant...<P>From earlier in Matthew, Chapter 7, verses 1 - 5:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Do not judge, or you too will be judged.<P>"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.<P>"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?<P>"How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?<P>"You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I honestly think that folks should make themselves better people before trying to hand out guidance to anyone else. That's why I cautioned against trying to get the spiritual folks "ganging up" against the WSs... <P>Seeing the world from this side, I'd rather hear "Have you tried doing this...?" instead of "We have heard what you are doing..." Guide, not judge...<P>But what do I know? I'm just a pagan, who is lumped in the same category as a tax collector, it seems... <P>Blessings.<BR>Kat

Kat - I urge you to continue to ask the tough questions. We can best help each other on this forum by challenging conclusions that may be swept up in "group think," without a critical review.<P>SKM best summed up my thinking - she had the benefit of our one-on-one conversations. For the record, she and I do not agree on every aspect of the broader topic, but I respect her's and other's views. You are partly correct that my original post was a rhetorical question - but I was hoping to generate some discussion that could broaden into specific ideas.<P>I also appreciate your caution of the pot calling the kettle black. Appropriate wisdom in many circumstances, but not here for me. I'm not perfect, but my imperfections pale in comparison to the actions of my wife and OM. I was faithful, I was honest, I have nothing to be ashamed of and, notwithstanding my lack of membership in an organized religion, I'll stack my morals up against anyone, any day. This was not intended to be a discussion of religion, per se, but of those who practice hypocrisy. In the end, it met my goal of generating healthy discussion with appropriate challenges from critical thinkers.<P>Thanks to all,<BR>Dave

KAT -<P>Yes, it is quite the alphabet soup around here. From my perspective, I am a part of "organized" religion, I believe in Jesus Christ, I believe in God, I believe in the Holy Spirit, I believe in the teachings of my church. But I am a WS, too. Trust me, the last thing I want to do is judge anyone. In the grand scheme of things, I am a sinner, I am the lowest of the low, I have been greatly humbled by this experience, and this experience (from my perspective) is not something I would wish upon my worst enemy. If there is anyone on this site that needs to make themselves better, well, it's me.<P>You said "I honestly think that folks should make themselves better people before trying to hand out guidance to anyone else. That's why I cautioned against trying to get the spiritual folks "ganging up" against the WSs..."<P>None of us are perfect, and I guess if we wait around for everyone to get perfect, well what's the point of this forum? Why do we care when a friend comes to us with a question or a concern? Do we just say "Sorry, man, sinner here, I don't know what to tell you, SOL, talk to you later, I've gotta go make myself better before I can help you, or listen to you, and that could take awhile, can I get back to you?" <P>Whether you're spiritual or not spiritual, Christian, Jew or Pagan - we all see some things similarly, and some things differently. I doubt very much that you can get two Catholics to agree on anything 100% of the time. But, I do know, or at least think that everyone on this site feels that adultery is wrong. The ten commandments say that for me - for Dave it's the golden rule, for others, like yourself, it is just common decency that says you don't betray a person you love, when you say you want to love someone above all others - forever, until death parts us - and then you go and break that vow without telling your spouse, giving them a chance to figure things out - well, I think most of us here will agree that it is wrong.<P>Just because I believe in Jesus, call myself a Christian, does not mean that I think that I am a better human being than ANYONE else on this planet. <P>See, just like you "pagans" (I'm joking here) - Christians get a bad rap, too. And, I know I don't speak for all Christians - or represent anyone else besides myself - but I DEFINITELY do not think that I can "cast the first stone" at anyone. (And that's kind of why I have a problem with Capital Punishment, too, but that's a whole 'nother topic ).<P>What I think is out there is a set of, well, socially acceptable ways of behaving - norms, values, morals - whatever you want to call them. My norms and values are intertwined with my religious beliefs. For other people, it could be a different foundation, but basically betraying a friend, a spouse - well, it doesn't fit with a lot of peoples' norms and values - wherever their foundation.<P>In this case, however, Dave's wife is "seeking" to become a member of the Catholic community. And, if you're keeping score (yea, another player on the team, joke ). But, I will have to agree with Dave when he says that it doesn't make sense that she wants to join a community in which, really, she may not understand how/what she is doing fits in - not only with the Church, but with her own spirituality. Maybe Dave's wife knows exactly what she's doing, but Dave told me in a message one time that his wife said (and correct me if I'm wrong, Dave) something about her wanting her son to be involved with the Catholic church because "they all seem to turn out okay."<P>Okay? Well, I for one am a mess. I think there's a lot of misconceptions out there. I don't think Catholicism, per se, will gaurantee that you "turn out okay." For me, the Catholics are no better than the Baptists, Baptists are no better than the Lutherans, the Lutherans are no better than the Jews, the Jews are no better than - for lack of a better term - pagans, and the pagans are no better than the atheists - in terms of how we live our lives. But there's a difference, I think, between not necessarily the values but "other things" that unfortunately "separate" a lot of groups from each other, alienate a lot of people from "organized" religion. <P>So, yea, I agree 100% we shouldn't judge, we shouldn't come down on the WS because it is not our place to judge - and because really it could happen to anyone, and other people have done other things that go against socially or religiously accepted norms and values. But, I think this is a great forum to celebrate our diversity - learn from each other's various points of view, learn from the experiences of others.<P>If I were Dave's wife, you're right, I would be hot if a priest yanked me out of mass and wanted to talk to me because "my estranged husband told him all about me and the OM." Yes, I would be mortified. Yes, I would be embarrassed. As a former WS, I doubt that it would put any deposits in the old love bank. <P>But for me, I also know that being a Christian, sometimes can be uncomfortable. Who am I kidding? Committing adultery is wrong, right, it would make anyone uncomfortable having that information released without hearing "my side of things." But regardless of what I have to say, what I feel inside, what happens as a result, I know that I committed adultery and I know that it was wrong. <P>If anyone feels that adultery is okay - than I think we could have a heated debate here (and I really don't want that ). But I think we all see most things very similarly regardless of our backgrounds - and the differences that exist should be celebrated, not kept in the closet or turned away. That's how you learn and grow - expand your horizons. I have my beliefs, you have yours - but I definitely do not feel that I am better than anyone "just because of my religion."<P>You said "Guide, not judge..." But what are you "guiding" them too? Isn't that based, theoretically, on a judgement? If, you're "guiding" someone into a certain direction, than in a way, you're kind of saying "based on my experience, this has worked for me, or you should "try this" - it's a personal judgment. <P>I know what you meant - but really, the only way any of us can "guide" is from our own personal perspectives which are based on our own individual backgrounds - education, religion, ethnicity, geographical location, family life, work experience, every experience that has shaped us - as individuals - in some manner. And, that diversity should be celebrated and promoted.<P>Judgments as to who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell - not mine to make. Judgements - not of people, but on situations - based on my experience are in no way a predictor of how someone else is going to react in the same exact situation - because we're all different. <P>But, I think anyone who comes to a forum - such as this - is looking for a wide range of opinions, to help them make an informed decision. But, the bottom line is that it is that persons right and responsibility to do what he/she feels is in his/her best interest. Sometimes, I don't get a lot of time to post, so I just take it for granted that people know that "these are my opinions, based on my own experience, and you are under no obligation to agree with me, or to do anything I say or recommend." If we all had to say that in every post, as a disclaimer, well, I don't think a lot of people would post their opinions. and, that's a shame. Judgements are made all the time - in any kind of decision - you have to decide what is right for you. But sometimes, in some case, the more information you get, the better the decision - not necessarily in all cases, but theoretically speaking.<P>You also said: "But what do I know? I'm just a pagan, who is lumped in the same category as a tax collector, it seems..." I think all of us are entitled to free choice, I think all of us are entitled to have our own beliefs, our own opinions. Just because you are a "pagan" does not mean that you are a bad person. <P>Heck, in accordance with my religious beliefs - I know adultery was wrong and still did it. Hypocrisy? I don't know. Not really. Stupidity, yes. I just didn't live what I believed at one time. And, I know I'll mess up again (not commit adultery, but I'm not perfect s somethings bound to come up).<P>My concern is that Dave get all the information that he wants and needs; and that his wife gets all the information she needs to make an informed decision.<P>Dave's wife is seeking to become a member of a community which really does not look fondly on adultery, does not look fondly on divorce, believes in the sanctity of marriage, and yea, I think there is a certain amount of obligation on the part of the church to ensure that its members have all the accurate information they need to make an informed decision. Will it end the affair? Will it save Dave's marriage? Who knows.<P>But, if all nurses and doctors waited to make sure they 100% "okay", that every little ache and pain was gone, before they went to help others - surely there would be a bunch of sick people in the world. I do think, that we all need to look inward - only I can do surgery to my soul. But, without the influence of my H, without the influence of my family and friends, without the influence of my church, without the support and opinions of the people on this site - well, I don't think I would have been able to make myself a better person. And for me, without God, I doubt that I would have been very successful. That's my beliefs - I certainly don't come on this site to convert anyone.<P>I pray for Christians and non-Christians alike - because I believe in the power of prayer. For people who may not believe in God, my beliefs may seem ridiculous, but it's who I am. I don't think anyone comes on this site claiming to know everything. We're all struggling in one way or another, and I would rather have 10 people pulling with me -than me trying to "pull" myself out of this alone.<P>I think it's important to share opinions - everyone's opinion - but it's up to the person asking for opinions to sift through all of the replies and pull out what he/she thinks will work for him. And, some of us happen to be Christians, and sometimes we recommend talking to people who are more educated on church doctrine than we are, and sometimes we may have problems of our own to deal with. But for me, it's more about encouraging someone to get what they need - not discouraging them from trying. The church, at least in my opinion, is not the bad guy, but should be used as a resource. More people are likely to go to secular counselors than they are to their own parish priest. Why is that? Throwing it out there. . .<P>Anyway, I have to get some work done! Sorry if this dragged on, but I hope no one thinks I am judging anyone - it's simply not my place and I recognize that. And Kat, I agree - listen to understand, not to judge the person.<BR>

SKM,<BR>As always, that was an excellent post with great insight and compassion.<P>I'd like to expound on the term "judge" for a moment if I might. It seems to me that many people are quick to say that Christians are "judging" or "being judgmental" in the way we act regarding open sin. The fear of being labled as judgemental...which always has a negative connotation to it....stops many people, Christian and non-Christian, from standing up for what is right.<P>It is always absolutely wrong for any person, Christian or not, to judge another person's worth. I would be absolutlely in the wrong to judge every unmarried woman that I meet as someone who is out to have an affair or a danger to my marriage. I would be absolutely wrong to judge SKM or any other person here who was unfaithful to their spouse as being a bad person or having no worth.<P>But, if I am judging the behavior of another person based on the truths of the Bible, then I am not in the wrong. To say that adultery is wrong and those here who have committed adultery were wrong is not being judgemental. Now, it depends on whether that behavior has directly affected me or in some way falls under my responsibility as a church leader as to whether I say anything or do anything about it. No matter what action I take, I am first and foremost to be compassionate and loving in what I do and say. And, try as I might sometimes I fail in that endeavor.<P>I am a secretary in my church and there are times that I have knowledge of situations that my pastor may or may not be aware of. It is my responsibility to share that knowledge with him so that he might try to handle it in the best way for everyone concerned. It is never my responsibility to share that knowledge with anyone else in the church or even on our staff. I strive never to look down on anyone who has fallen into sin or to hold it against them in the future. My responsibility as a staff member and even more importantly, as a Christian, is to love them and pray for them and seek to be part of Christ's work to restore them to fellowship. But when I know of a situation that is in direct opposition to God's word, it is my Christian responsibility to judge the right or wrong of that situation and to take appropriate steps to bring it to the attention of the person who can best deal with it.<P>As SKM said, there is no one religion....or no one person....that is better than another. None of us has a lock on heaven....we all have our positive and negative points. What we do have as born-again Christians is God's grace and promise of forgiveness when we confess and repent from our sin. It's a free gift, all we have to do is ask.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Bravo SKM... deep wisdom and an open mind... thank you for sharing

HGBrawner -<P>I think we'd make a pretty good "tag team." Not that we're ganging up on anyone ! I think you explained, really waht I was trying to say about the word judge - very clearly and concisely. <P>I don't really think any of us are qualified to judge a person's worth, but we can judge actions (again, based on what we believe to be right or wrong, good or bad). Someone gives me a cookie - that is VERY good, and a kind act on the part of that person. Does that make the individual a good person? Not necessarily. This is a lesson I am just now learning, but because I committed adultery - yes, that was horribly wrong, but I like to think that that one action does not make me a horrible person. So, thanks, HG for clarifying that point.

To All:<P>I appreciate there were layers to the advice being given WAT that I did not know existed. As I have said before, I apologize for responding to the question I believed was asked, as opposed to the one that was actually asked.<P>SKM:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If, you're "guiding" someone into a certain direction, than in a way, you're kind of saying "based on my experience, this has worked for me, or you should "try this" - it's a personal judgment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Excellent point. I suppose I do, as HGBrawner suggests, avoid the word "judge" too much. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Judgments as to who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell - not mine to make. Judgements - not of people, but on situations - based on my experience are in no way a predictor of how someone else is going to react in the same exact situation - because we're all different. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The only way we keep functioning in life is to take in information and judge whether a person or situation is helpful or harmful to us. You are quite correct. I believe that the danger lies when we go from judging situations to judging people in the big picture the way you suggest.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dave's wife is seeking to become a member of a community which really does not look fondly on adultery, does not look fondly on divorce, believes in the sanctity of marriage, and yea, I think there is a certain amount of obligation on the part of the church to ensure that its members have all the accurate information they need to make an informed decision. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hmm....is the Catholic church a museum for saints or a hospital for sinners? If Dave's wife says to herself, "Gee, I would become a Christian, except I'm an adultress and I won't fit in...", is anyone better off for it?<P>HGBrawner,<P>I admire your obviously deep faith. Your words appear to be caring and compassionate.<P>I approach only one thing you said with caution:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But, if I am judging the behavior of another person based on the truths of the Bible, then I am not in the wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I believe that the Christian Bible describes a good standard of behavior in the secular world. I also believe that there are some areas that are open to interpretation (witness the situation in Northern Ireland for example) and should not be used as a black and white guide to good behavior.<P>But this is getting well beyond the scope of WAT's original post.<P>In answer to WAT's original post again, I would add that I have been fortunate to meet many truly good people (my judgement )in my lifetime. These people have been Jewish, Moslem, Christian (both Protestant of various denominations and Catholic), Buddhist, and Wiccan. (In case you're wondering, yes, I am Wiccan.) I have also met some pretty rotten apples in each category. Any religions I left out simply reflect the limits of my world.<P>How does someone go to a religious event when he or she knows that s/he is not following the basic tenets of that religion? With a heavy heart.<P>I am very sorry to hear of your pain, WAT (or may I call you Dave?). I didn't mean to insinuate in the least in my previous posts that you were in the least little bit guilty of infidelity. <P>Please examine your motives before going to the priest with this. If nothing else, it might be a Love Buster Supreme.<P>All the best to All of You.<BR>Kat =^^=

KAT - yes, please call me Dave (reserved for the truly sincere). I will take a deep breath before contacting the Priest for the concern you mentioned - LB supreme.<P>I would like to concur that hypocrisy, judgemental attitudes, and general rotten-ness is independent from spiritual beliefs. I too have known bad apples across the spectrum. Unfortunately, the foremost in my memory have espoused to be righteous before God. I lived in Va. Beach in 1985 when Pat Robertson claimed to have turned the course of hurricane Gloria only to have it strike New England ("...but they're mostly Catholics...") and I lived in Charlotte when Jim and Tammy soaked their flock in the late '80s. Mr. Robertson later stated God told him to run for President - but He told me not to vote for him.<P>My relationship with God is a private matter. I have chosen not to conform to any of the abundant doctrines, but I respect those who do. On this rock, there should be 5 billion religions, in my view. <P>I spoke with Him every day we were trying to cure my son. Now, I speak with Him every day about curing my wife. The result may be the same, my marriage may die. Why? In Dave's church, I don't need an answer to every question. I am content not having all the answers - or not knowing them immediately.<P>This ends this thread.<P>Dave

SKM,<BR>I'll be glad to tag-team with you any time. For the record, in case I've never said it directly to you.... You have my respect and admiration for your determination to restore your marriage. If we were to all lay bare the mistakes we've made in our lives, I would be right up there with everyone else. I've made bad judgements, deliberate and accidental....I've hurt people that I care about very much and I know that every moment of my life hasn't been glorifing or pleasing to God. But like you, I am so blessed to have the relationship with Him that allows Him to bring conviction upon me when I let Him down and then the blessing of His forgiveness and grace.<P>It is said very often here that the wounded spouse does the lion's share of the work to restore a marriage. In some ways that is true, but I believe we both know that when the spouse who was unfaithful truly commits to restoration, they bear a tremendous burden for healing. My husband put his own personal healing on the back burner in favor of me....that led to a long delay in his journey that was very hard for me to witness. Still today, if I have a "bad moment" or a trigger, his heart breaks all over again. My guess is that your situation is very similar. <P>An affair is a terrible thing but does not have to be the definition of a person's life. It takes great integrity and courage to face the facts and deal with the consequences head on. Congratulations on having both qualities. I hope your husband recognizes his blessings.<BR><P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31