Hi- Thanks for any advice you can lend...<P>My husband and I have three children (one 3 weeks old!) and his "emotional" affair (he says they never had sex)with an ex girlfriend has finally come to a head. <BR>His story is that he saw her by chance one day last October and started talking. One thing lead to another and he told her lie after lie after lie. He told her we were getting divorced and that I was very manipulative. He told her that he didn't even know if the newborn is his baby. He then said that things were getting out of hand and he pulled back and cut off contact with her. I knew at that time as I confronted him with proof. He has told me for the last 2 or 3 months that he has not spoken to her and is avoiding her. She moved out of state. We promised to work on the marriage and everything had been fine- as of this past Sunday- it was honeymoon time and I felt very, very positive about us.<BR>SURPRISE! <BR>I take the kids and go to visit my parents out of state and where does he go? To her! He is telling me that she threatened to commit suicide and that he went to help her AND to tell her the truth.<BR>Now that I know this, he came out with everything (or so he says) and says that he has been very immature but wants us to be mature where the kids are concerned and he doesn't want me to take them from him. He wanted to come and pick them up and I refused. I do not trust him and do not know what he could do with the kids- meaning, disappearing. He mentioned very slightly that he lied about everything and anything BUT not when he said he loved me all these times and not when he said he wanted to be married to me.<BR>I do not want to be divorced- BUT I do not want him to stay with me out of guilt.<BR>THE QUESTION IS...<BR>He is coming tonight to see the kids- what do I do????<BR>Tell him I want to work on it as long as guidelines are agreed upon (no contact with OW, we live apart for a while...) OR<BR>do I call his bluff and say I want out?<P>HELP!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SONZS:<BR><B>Hi- Thanks for any advice you can lend...<P>My husband and I have three children (one 3 weeks old!) and his "emotional" affair (he says they never had sex)with an ex girlfriend has finally come to a head. <BR>His story is that he saw her by chance one day last October and started talking. One thing lead to another and he told her lie after lie after lie. He told her we were getting divorced and that I was very manipulative. He told her that he didn't even know if the newborn is his baby. He then said that things were getting out of hand and he pulled back and cut off contact with her. I knew at that time as I confronted him with proof. He has told me for the last 2 or 3 months that he has not spoken to her and is avoiding her. She moved out of state. We promised to work on the marriage and everything had been fine- as of this past Sunday- it was honeymoon time and I felt very, very positive about us.<BR>SURPRISE! <BR>I take the kids and go to visit my parents out of state and where does he go? To her! He is telling me that she threatened to commit suicide and that he went to help her AND to tell her the truth.<BR>Now that I know this, he came out with everything (or so he says) and says that he has been very immature but wants us to be mature where the kids are concerned and he doesn't want me to take them from him. He wanted to come and pick them up and I refused. I do not trust him and do not know what he could do with the kids- meaning, disappearing. He mentioned very slightly that he lied about everything and anything BUT not when he said he loved me all these times and not when he said he wanted to be married to me.<BR>I do not want to be divorced- BUT I do not want him to stay with me out of guilt.<BR>THE QUESTION IS...<BR>He is coming tonight to see the kids- what do I do????<BR>Tell him I want to work on it as long as guidelines are agreed upon (no contact with OW, we live apart for a while...) OR<BR>do I call his bluff and say I want out?<P>HELP!!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No game playing... if you want your marriage, tell him so with NO GUIDELINES and then implement Plan A... and don't "call his bluff" unless you seriously don't want your marriage. <P>If you want to be married to him... you need to make your marriage a safe place for him to return.<P>No demands.<P>Quick answer for a quick problem <P>Good luck... enjoy the new little person in your life... and enjoy the visit with your husband.<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Sheryl,<P>When you say no guidlines- do you mean, basically saying<BR>"I want our marriage. I don't want to be divorced. Do what you need to do and I will still be here?"<P>When saying this, do I allow him back in the home?<BR>I am not sure if I can handle that. Gosh, this is really hard and really hurts!

Here's a link to Plan A and Plan B...<P>You want Plan A...<P>Good luck!<P>Just click on this link:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html</A> <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SONZS:<BR><B>Sheryl,<P>When you say no guidlines- do you mean, basically saying<BR>"I want our marriage. I don't want to be divorced. Do what you need to do and I will still be here?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Yes on the first two sentences, no on the last one. <P>You might have to hang tight while the affair winds down, but you'll be busy with learning how not to lovebust (LB) and meeting his emotional needs (EN).<P>I know it hurts... been there.<P>And with a new baby... very sad... and I'm so sorry...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>When saying this, do I allow him back in the home?<BR>I am not sure if I can handle that. Gosh, this is really hard and really hurts!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I say yes, allow him back if he wants to come back. Much easier to meet his needs if he's there. Plus he has to "see" what he's missing.<P>I'm sorry to be so brief, but you are in a hurry... I hope some others drop by!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Thanks for the link.<P>I have read through those before a couple of months ago and then couldn't find them again today on the site.<P>I will read plan A now.<P>THANKS!

Sheryl,<P>Alright- Plan A it is!<BR>I just have to keep in mind that<BR>I do want to be married and I don't want to "chase" him off!<BR>(say it over and over in my head!)<P>I will be back later and will let you know what happened.<P>thanks, again, so much!

GREAT <P>...AND YOU'RE WELCOME!!... <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

SONZS,<P>How did it go?<P>Kat =^^=

Well, it actually went pretty bad.<P>I was very calm when he came home and he played with the kids for a while and then they went to sleep... which left him and I alone.<P>He basically talked for almost 3 hours straight about every lie he had ever told me. This has ruined all the good memories I have had about the last couple of years. (At least they were good to me.) <BR>He told me that he loved me but not "that way." He knew that we would always be good friends.<BR>He said that he is not with this girl and does not plan to be. He said that he does not want to lie anymore to me and that it is over. He got it all off his chest and feels better while I , of course, felt worse.<BR>He then left and went to his mom's.<P>Since then, he has given no indication that he wishes to reconcile. In one conversation, I asked him why he let this go on so long without leaving. He said because he believed in us and wanted it to work. I then responded by saying then why didn't you agree to counceling? If you knew there was a problem and you were unhappy, why didn't you want to go with me? To stab it in harder, he said, Yeah, you are right we should have gone. !<P>I have left the state and am with my parents and the kids. He told me last night that the house was empty and he felt empty. Again, he said he was sorry for hurting me. Again, no indication that he wishes to try. <P>I am going ahead with the legal stuff and am seeing an attorney tonight. <P>How can I move forward with my life and still look back hoping that he will change his mind? I can't! <P>This is so hard and I still am in complete shock.<P>He has lied to me for so long and look at me, I would take him back!!! <P>I will come back to this forum again and again because it is encouraging. Please post your opinions and advice as I need it right now!<P>And can you believe- i just had a baby four weeks ago and am dealing with this on top of still being post-partum.

I am SO SORRY that you are dealing with this as well as post-partum stuff... jeez... <P>Okay, first things first.<P>Your H is saying the things they all say. Hear me... THEY ALL SAY THESE THINGS.<P>Blech, I know. But they do.<P>Plan A is for using WHILE they are in the fog. Here's the thoughts behind it:<P>You become safe for him by not lovebusting, and by meeting as many of his emotional needs that you can. Hopefully, the OW (and this girl *is* an Other Woman, and I suspect you already know that) will screw up and get pushy and he'll feel pressured, or see her "true self" and then there YOU"LL be, all safe and warm.<P>I wouldn't file for divorce just yet if I were you. Do YOU want the divorce? It doesn't sound like it... if not, then DON'T DO IT.<P>And, it's also not uncommon for him NOT to want counseling right now. He's in a fog. Can you do it alone? Can you afford to call Steve Harley? His link is above, on counseling, and it's over the phone. One person *CAN* save a marriage... <P>and although not all marriages can be saved... you'll have piece of mind (and *peace* of mind) that you tried your darndest to repair it...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Sheryl,<P>Thanks, again, for your reply.<P>No- I really don't want a divorce but I don't know what else to do.<P>Do they really say all those things? That he doesn't love me "that way" and he wants to be good friends. Wow. I just find that hard to believe because they are such heavy words.<P>You are still suggesting Plan A- providing a safe place for him to return? keeping our home still intact? being there for him? There are a copule of issues that I have with that...<P>I have left the state and am with the kids. We are communicating by phone and I have tried to only talk to him about the kids. He does, however, want to talk about more things, daily things, and I have always cut him off. I feel like if I return, he will only manipulate me further and I will fall further and it will hurt worse. Shouldn't I give him time to see what he is missing? He already is as he has said the house is empty and he is empty. Should I talk with him about normal, light things on the phone and start from there?<P>I do believe that if we committed to working on it- therapy, time a part to develop our individual selves, etc. - then we could make it work. BUT again I have said that to him and he has said this is what he wants. What do I do with that?<P>I have my own therapy session set up with a Christian counselor on Thursday that has known me for a long time. I am greatly looking forward to meeting with her. I need people outside of the situation (like YOU !) to help me see clearer.<P>I met with an attorney tonight and am confident that in a divorce I would get what I and the kids need. This did make me feel better as I really don't want a custody battle. <P>The thing that has gotten me through the day today were a close friend's words to me that I have a future and I will get through this. It is so easy to be caught up in the situation and the pain that you forget who you are and that you will indeed move on. with or without him!<P>Again- thanks for your words. <P>Did you make your marriage work? You sound like you know what you are talking about!!!<P>BTW- I thought I understood lovebusting but I don't think I do after reading your post. You stated that I would become safe from him by not lovebusting. I will review lovebusting and will consider speaking with Steve Harley. (probably will check out his books first and meet with my own counselor first.)

I purchased SURVIVING AN AFFAIR today and am already on Chapter 6.<P>It is really right on target - although his infidelity was not my fault, I contributed to the break down of our marriage. I fully admit that and see my faults clearly.<P>I did not meet his needs and someone else did. <P>As it stands now, (a week after the affair totally came out) I am still out of state and he calls to talk to the kids. One day I want to talk to him when he calls and the next day I will allow our oldest to answer the phone and talk, and I won't talk to him.<P>I did talk with him this morning and he stated that he has not talked to her (mmmmmm...) and he missess the kids. I told him that I saw an attorney and that I am prepared to file because he has given me no indication that he doesn't want that. <P>He replied, "So you just want to go back and have things the way they were?" <P>And I said, "NO! I do not want to go back to you. I am saying that we have our issues that each of us need to seek help for and that is what I am doing (therapy). I am saying that we need a seperation, whether it be for three months or a year. And during that seperation we seek therapy alone AND together to try to get this back on track. You are giving me no indication that you are even willing to do that." <P>He said nothing and said that he had to get to a meeting and hung up quickly. <P>I am struggling with the fact that this OW was his girlfriend before me and they never really broke up- they went their seperate ways because each was moving. It is almost like he regrets meeting me, marriage, kids, etc. He has a strong emotional bond to her and this is obvious. How can I make him see that I understand that BUT you made a committment to me and that committment carries over to our kids? How can I myself get past the guilt that maybe I was a mistake to him and I should accept that and move on?<P>And, most importantly, how should I act when he calls? Talk about light things and the kids and not about all of this crap?<P>BTW- someone else in another thread said to not ask God "WHY?" but to ask God "WHAT NEXT?" That is so true and this is exactly what I am doing!!!!

Hi SONZS,<P>Sorry, I didn't see your reply to me yesterday! <P>No, my marriage did not work out -- I was married for 20 years and my H cheated on me five times, and I cheated on him once (an exit affair, according to the books)... <P>But I loved him, and I did everything all assbackwards, which is why I am so wise (not really THAT wise, but I do know a lot I wish I didn't).<P>My thoughts now are ALWAYS to try PlanA first, for as long as you can, whether you are in the home or not. If you don't want a divorce, the only advice I have is don't get a divorce and don't sign the papers if your spouse files.<P>Yeah, it just holds things up, but they might come "out of the fog" while you're waiting.<P>Just wanted to drop by and say hi, and sorry again I didn't see your reply yesterday...

Hi SONZS,<P>I've reviewed this thread, but not any other postings you may have made.<P>First, separating is rarely a good way to work on a marriage, if you're not ready for Plan B. It takes away much of your opportunity to meet his ENs and makes it easy for him to see the OW.<P>Second, I commend you that you're doing the reading. Too many people want to come and get advice without doing the work of reading the Harley materials. Keep it up, the principles do work.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Do they really say all those things? That he doesn't love me "that way" and he wants to be good friends. Wow. I just find that hard to believe because they are such heavy words.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><BR>It's the norm, not the exception. He's in <B><I>withdrawal</B></I>. To understand this, try this <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html" TARGET=_blank>article</A> by Dr. Harley on the three states of marriage. <P>Also understand that an affair is like an addiction. If carried on long enough it may end on its own. To end it before that time the WS usually has to go through withdrawal (and depression) for a certain period of time before they get over the OP. Seeing the OP sets the WS back to the beginning of withdrawal.<P>So, even if your H did think he had ended the A, his attitude is probably partially due to seeing the OW again.<P>Good luck, Plan A usually works well <B>if you persevere</B>, but it does take time.<P>Steve<BR><p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited April 24, 2001).]

Sheryl or Steve or anyone wise! Help!<P>I went to see a counselor that I have known for a long time yesterday.<P>Her advice...<P>Because he has lied to you from DAY ONE of your relationship, your language and his is completely different. You are unable to believe anything he says until you verify it for yourself. He can break the chains of his lies but only if he truly wants to. You will not trust him for years to come.<BR>When I told her that the Harley's believe that one person can save a marriage she replied that the question is is it worth saving? <BR>Because I am a Christian and my husband is of a very different faith, we are unequally yolked and God has given me a back door to end the marriage because of his infidelity. <BR>She explains that I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. One side is to stay with a man that I don't trust, one that lies every moment, and one that may not ever change. I am teaching my children that deception is acceptable. The other side is to get a divorce and have more time alone with my children to bring them up the way I believe they should be raised. Both are hard and neither are good.<BR>She states that of course it is my choice if I choose to work on the marriage, but that I should know what that means.<BR>I was selfish for a second and stated that I was scared to be ALONE! I am 25 years old with 3 beautiful children and do not want to be single the rest of my life. BUT who wants a woman with 3 kids ?!!!<BR>She stated that I have every right to be scared BUT would I rather be in this situation when I am 25 or when I am 30 ?<P>I walked out of there knowing that I needed to start the divorce process but I just can't. I still am not ready. I love this man and I miss our family unit. <P>He is still not responding to my offer of reconciliation. He just simply changes the subject. He wants to talk about all other things- putting DSL in the house, setting up a router, his wanting to go back to school, etc. <P>I am battling with my own emotions of wanting this to work because I still love him after all he has done and battling with what my head is telling me- he is a manipulator and can't be trusted.<P>HELP!!!

Hi SONZS,<P>Well... sigh... your conselor is basing her opinion on *her* personal thoughts about marriage. She isn't one to fight for marriage at all costs, which is, I think, what you want and need right now.<P>So...<P>You don't want a divorce, so don't file. That's number 1.<P>Secondly, I disagree with this statement of hers:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I am teaching my children that deception is acceptable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, what you are teaching your children is that mommy believes in marriage and is staying despite some suffering because she believes it is the right thing to do.<P>Now, if you are being abused, I'd say to get out (thought not necessarily divorce right away)... and yes, I feel that infidelity is a kind of abuse, but it also can be overcome. And yes, no matter what she says, one person can save a marriage... I've seen it many times here.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>She states that of course it is my choice if I choose to work on the marriage, but that I should know what that means.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know it's confusing... all I can tell you is that I hear that you want to save your marriage. One mistake that I made was to get soooooo many opinions until my head was all boggled up with opinions/facts/thoughts/lies... you name it, I had it in my head. I didn't know WHAT I believed anymore. You want to save your marriage, so you might want to find a counselor who supports you -- and of course, I'm going to suggest you call the Harley's - info here --><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counsel Link</A><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He is still not responding to my offer of reconciliation. He just simply changes the subject. He wants to talk about all other things- putting DSL in the house, setting up a router, his wanting to go back to school, etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don't offer anymore... and when he talks about seperating, keep telling him that you won't talk about this, that you want your marriage, etc. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am battling with my own emotions of wanting this to work because I still love him after all he has done and battling with what my head is telling me- he is a manipulator and can't be trusted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, he canNOT be trusted... but you can work on YOU, take care of your children, and pray... and do a good Plan A and work on those LB's...<P>Hope this helps!<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck