Not looking to argue with you here....just curious...and needing a 'diversion' right now...<P>You said on another thread:<P>"I believe that the New Testament does not allow for divorce under any circumstance---including adultery. IMO the adultery clause was a "edited tack-on" by an author. It's not consistant with the message that Jesus was teaching."<P>I'm curious...how much of the scriptures do you see as being "edited tack-on"? That gets kind of dangerous, doesn't it?<P>I know this subject has been addresed here before...but I'm not sure I agree with your "IMO" <P>Something to consider in the adultery case. Under the OT, God sanctioned the 'putting to death by stoning' for a man or woman caught in the act of adultery. I guess he felt pretty strongly about that. <P>So consider this thought...if a guilty party was 'put to death', would that not free the betrayed spouse to be married again?<P>And while I don't see the New Testament advocating the death penalty for adulterers, their actions can in fact, bring 'death' to the marriage. <P>Obviously, I would think that God's ultimate plan would be restoration for the troubled marriage. And ALL things are possible with God to them that beleive. <P>But sadly, there are times...when a WS has no intenion of restoring the marriage. He/she is adamant about continuing on in sin. And I think the scriptures do 'allow' a divorce to take place for this cause. Certainly, God does not desire or expect a spouse to live in that envioronment. <P>Where the scriptures come across a bit 'gray', is whether or not that BS can remarry. That issue is always up for debate. But, under the Old Testament law, after the death penalty had been carried out, they would have been free to remarry, as I stated earlier...so one might argue that under the NT...the possiblity of remarriage would remain open.<P>Just something to think about.<P>I don't think Divorce is God's best...or first choice. <P>I also know...that many a good men and woman...have enudred some of the most painful relationships that no one could ever deserve...without divorcing.<P>I guess what is so sad...is that the divorce rate today...within the "church" is no different than those who are not practicing the NT teachings.<P>And that makes me stop...and take a long hard look...and ask: "WHY?"<P><BR>

Hi K,<P>I commented on this too... on the other thread.<P>I am so curious about this also.<P>I guess I want to know... Is the Bible literal to you? Is the Bible God-inspired (as in God breathed the words into it through man's hands)? <P>And of course, where did you get the idea of the "tack on" and why do you believe it?<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Like NB I posted on the other thread but I will copy & paste here also.<P> posted April 19, 2001 11:00 AM <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>K,<BR>I found your statement about divorce being added on by the author, very interesting. I wish my H could debate that with you. He had strong views on divorce until he became a WS, now he has search the scriptures to justify his actions & to turn things where he could divorce me. Don't know where it says you can divorce your wife for being overweight & a very bad housekeeper. <P>I attended a very conservative religious college, where daily Bible classes were required, one of the several classes I took more than once (they objected to my habit of sleeping in on those 7 am classes) was a class called Marriage & the Christian Home. One of the statements that the Professor made has stayed with me for over 20 yrs. That if you were completely free from causing your spouse to stray, you could think about divorce. I wasn't free from that guilt up till a point. <P>I wasn't the wife my H needed, did he let me know, no he did not. Would I change yes, have I, in some ways, given the chance to really be his wife I would move mountains, I moved across the world. Now for the actions of my H in the last yr, I feel he has freed me, if I want or decide to divorce him. I can look God, my children, & even MIL in the face & say I did all or about all that I could.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by sing (edited April 19, 2001).]<BR>

As a diversion only ( ), I'd point you all to an old thread entitled <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/004680.html" TARGET=_blank>FA: I found my bible.</A><P>Matthew 5:32 (St. Joseph's Ed of New American Bible):<P><I>But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.</I><P>The key here is the interpretation of the (greek???) word porneia (I believe, 'cause I don't have the books in front of me). The "unlawful" marriage is a marriage between siblings, for example. The KJV and other bibles substitute "adultery" for this word.<P>So, this basically says no divorce unless the marriage is "unlawful". And nowhere is it stated (or implied) that commission of adultery creates an "unlawful" marriage. Adultery is a sin---no doubt about it. But in the Christian faith (NT), divorce (the verb) is a sin as well. The "unlawful" reference is generally regarded to mean unlawful as in brother marrying sister (and other blood-relation taboos of that time).<P>Furthermore, Matthew 19:3-9<P>Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, saying, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?" He said in reply, "Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate."<P>They said to him, "Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss [her]?" He said to them, "Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wifes, but <I>from the beginning it was not so.</I> I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.<P>I'd also point you all to Mk 10:9, Lk 16:18, and 1 Cor:10-11.<P>I agree that my "interpretation" could be dangerous. But this isn't just my view: it's the basis behind the Catholic Church insistance of divorce as a sin.<P>If you read the <A HREF="http://www.v-a.com/bible/matthew-5.html" TARGET=_blank>Matthew 5</A>, you'll see how Jesus is preaching forgiveness and doing "what is right", not necessarily what was "lawful" during that time. A marriage is a blessed union between two people (becoming one), and the destruction of that union---for ANY reason---is not in accordance with Jesus's teachings. And you're completely correct that this goes against OT law---but remember Jesus referrs to OT law as the "law of Moses (a man)". Not the law of God.<P>I'm not saying that this interpretation would be easy to live with, not by a long shot. But I believe that was Jesus's message---and it's one reason that I fought hard for my marriage. Divorce wasn't an moral option for me.<P>[This message has been edited by K (edited April 19, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by K (edited April 19, 2001).]

Just a word of caution...<BR>...of the Catholic views on Divorce.<P>According to the Catechism of the Catholic Chruch...<P>2383. "<B>The separation of spouses</B> while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law. (see below)<BR> <BR><B>If civil divorce remains the only possible way</B> of ensuring certain legal rights, <B>the care of the children</B>, or the protection of inheritance, <B>it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.</B> "<P>---------------<P>Oh yes the Catholic Church does say... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"2384. <B>Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law.</B> It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. <B>Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation</B>, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery: <BR>If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another's husband to herself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...and ... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>2385. "<B>Divorce is immoral</B> also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder <B>brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.</B>"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>----------------------<P>As far as it's view on "SEPARATION WHILE THE BOND REMAINS"<P>(this from the canon law... yes... a bit legaleze)...<P>Can. 1151 Spouses have the obligation and the right to maintain their common conjugal life, unless a lawful reason excuses them. <P>Can. 1153 §1 A spouse who occasions grave danger of soul or body to the other or to the children, or otherwise makes the common life unduly difficult, provides the other spouse with a reason to leave, either by a decree of the local Ordinary or, if there is danger in delay, even on his or her own authority. <P>§2 In all cases, when the reason for separation ceases, the common conjugal life is to be restored, unless otherwise provided by ecclesiastical authority. <P>Can. 1154 When a separation of spouses has taken place, provision is always, and in good time, to be made for the due maintenance and upbringing of the children. <P>Can. 1155 The innocent spouse may laudably readmit the other spouse to the conjugal life, in which case he or she renounces the right to separation .<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited April 19, 2001).]

And now, dear friends, I leave you in the much more capable hands of our dear NSR!<P>(PS, Jim---I noticed your website was down).<P>

Perhaps that is why Paul said:<P>"It is good for the unmarried to stay unmarried as I am" <P>So let me see if I got this right...if there is unresolved marital problems, then the best solution would be for the spouse to murder the other, get foriveness for that, get a shortened or probated sentance, then they would be legally free to remarry again with out any 'stigma' attatched of being an adulterer!

<B>K</B>...<BR>...your right... I don't have my 'erols' account anymore...<P>That's where I has a page on "Catholic Marriage, Divorce, Annulment and Remarriage."<P>Do you think I should repost that page elsewhere?...<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited April 19, 2001).]

I understand, and must ask:<P>Would you EVER remarry if your spouse did not divorce you but continued to live life as a single person? Would you *stand* FOREVER?<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Sheryl,<P>The phrase that comes to mind is <P>"Pray that the LORD God not put you to the test..."<P>I really would not be able to say, unless I was in that situation. But remember, I've got remarkable staying powers...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B>Sheryl,<P>The phrase that comes to mind is <P>"Pray that the LORD God not put you to the test..."<P>I really would not be able to say, unless I was in that situation. But remember, I've got remarkable staying powers... </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, you do... I very MUCH agree... and I guess I have to say you *couldn't* say unless faced with that (and I pray you never will be)... I am both drawn to and horrified by the idea of "standing" for your marriage, even after divorce -- I spoke to someone recently who is doing just that -- and I look at her with awe and confusion. <P>As you know, for me, I just hit a time when I couldn't take it anymore -- despite my choices surrounding that decision, and I know neither of us wants to go there -- but truly, I could not bear my heart to be broken by David again. What makes it work? Is it God, truly? Or do you actually have within you a "staying power"??????<P>As you know, no matter what, I NEVER EVER EVER want to go through divorce again, and I want to know all I can to avoid that... I find this fascinating and I respect you and Jim and all the women (esp. it does seem to be women) who "stand"...<P>Thanks for taking the time to answer.<P>

Ahhh, once again lumped into the "sisterhood" of women, NB. I'm sure that I speak for Jim when I say that we're truly honored... <P>It is not impossible for me to "imagine" what I would have done, should my wife had continued her affair, and moved in with the OM. But imagining and doing are two different things. I do believe that God's grace helped me through what I dealt with---frankly, I couldn't have imagined that my wife and I would still be together after what we went through. But here we are, making our marriage work! I give credit to God (Steve Harley too... I know you'll eat that up) for helping me through it.<P>I'm also blessed with a mind that is wonderful at rationalizing and seeing all (well, most...) sides of an issue. But then I can take a stand and say "this is what I need to do", and then do it. I think that ability is most useful in dealing with these turbulent, emotionally-tough decisions.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B>Ahhh, once again lumped into the "sisterhood" of women, NB. I'm sure that I speak for Jim when I say that we're truly honored... <P>It is not impossible for me to "imagine" what I would have done, should my wife had continued her affair, and moved in with the OM. But imagining and doing are two different things. I do believe that God's grace helped me through what I dealt with---frankly, I couldn't have imagined that my wife and I would still be together after what we went through. But here we are, making our marriage work! I give credit to God (Steve Harley too... I know you'll eat that up) for helping me through it.<P>I'm also blessed with a mind that is wonderful at rationalizing and seeing all (well, most...) sides of an issue. But then I can take a stand and say "this is what I need to do", and then do it. I think that ability is most useful in dealing with these turbulent, emotionally-tough decisions.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, K, I think I want your mind -- you can have mine. I wish I could *stop* thinking sometimes, you know? I see all sides, like you, but I keep going around and around and around it until I'm dizzy.<P>I have a lot of insight to offer, but it really is quite specialized, which is why I pretty much stick to what I know. I do have opinions, of course... but sometimes I begin to doubt myself.<P>You have strength. That's what I envy most. I have a strength, but it's different from yours... I have the "birthin' babies" kind of strength (and no, won't lump you in there ). <P>I think that God does give you strength. I think He gives all of us strength... I just wonder why some of us do what we do while others do what they do... and yet, we are all "good people" trying to do what is right.<P>...sigh...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

K, sometimes the ability to see all sides of an issue can be very stressful... I am another who can see all sides - and I have found it to often be frustrating to the point of serious stress.<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Hi guys! Jumping in with a comment here.....you knew I couldn't resist for long didn't you!<P>I have the New International Version of the Bible. In Matthew 19:8-9 the Bible says "Jesus said 'Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.'"<P>Some take this to mean that a divorce is permitted after one incident of adultery, even if the unfaithful spouse is remorseful and repentant. I believe it means that divorce is permitted if the unfaithful spouse continues the infidelity and refuses to change their ways. I believe God's plan is for marital restoration whereever possible.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

This should be of interest. (Time to get out the Bible, wish H and OW would do the same.) Asked myself the same question before my WH affair became a PA. Believe I have God on my side should I decide to divorce. H does not ask for forigiveness. If he did I would say yes. For me, I will not be free untill I have done EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to save this marriage. <P>From the "Holmans Bible Dictionary".<BR>"ADULTERY is the act of unfaithfulness in marriage that occurs when one of the marriage partners voluntarily engages in sexual intercourse with a person of the opposite sex other than the marriage partner. <P>Old Testament Israel's covenant law prohibited adultery (Ex. 20:14) and thereby made faithfulness to the marriage relationship central in the divine will for human relationships. Many Old Testament regulations deal with adultery as the adulterous man's offense against the husband of the adulterous wife. Yet both the adulterous man and woman were viewed as guilty, and the punishment of death was prescribed for both (Lev. 20:10). The severity of the punishment indicates the serious consequences adultery has for the divine-human relationship (Ps. 51:4) as well as for marriage, family, and community relationships. <BR> Several Old Testament prophets used adultery as a metaphor to describe unfaithfulness to God. Idolatry (Ezek. 23:27) and other pagan religious practices (Jer. 3:6-10) were viewed as adulterous unfaithfulness to the exclusive covenant that God established with His people. To engage in such was to play the harlot (Hos. 4:11-14). <P>New Testament Jesus' teachings expanded the Old Testament law to address matters of the heart. Adultery has its origins within (Matt. 15:19), and lust is as much a violation of the law's intent as is illicit sexual intercourse (Matt. 5:27-28). Adultery is one of the "works of the flesh" (Gal. 5:19). It creates enmity with God (Jas. 4:4), and adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9). <BR> The New Testament associates remarriage after divorce and adultery. Marriage is a lifelong covenant between a man and a woman. Divorce does not break the bond, so remarriage is viewed as adultery except in cases where unfaithfulness was the reason for the divorce (Matt. 5:32; Mark 10:11-12). The marriage bond is broken by death (Rom. 7:3; 1 Cor. 7:39). <BR> Adulterers can be forgiven (John 8:3-11); and once sanctified through repentance, faith, and God's grace, they are included among God's people (1 Cor. 6:9-11). See Divorce, Marriage. "<P>Love and Prayers for all of us.

Just some sites previously found on the issue of "adultery"...<BR><A HREF="http://members.xoom.com/DianeDew/adulforn.htm" TARGET=_blank>Adultery & Fornication</A>...and...<BR><A HREF="http://www.probe.org/docs/adultery.html" TARGET=_blank>Adultery</A><P>I ask <B>OneGoing</B> to now maintain my old lists like... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000558.html" TARGET=_blank>Other Useful Sites</A>.<P> <P>Jim

This is been an interesting topic to me (for a few years now), mainly because of my Catholic upbringing, and the opportunity to view several "editions" of the Bible.<P>Again, Catholic interpretation is basically (whatami is quoted):<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Marriage is a lifelong covenant between a man and a woman.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><I>But, there are no exception clauses to that</I>. And in all of Jesus's teachings, that would be the message most consistant with his other lessons (IMO, of course). Jesus was not one who tacked on exception clauses to ANY other teachings in the gospels (at least that I'm aware of).<P>It's also true that through repentence and belief in the Son of God, that we are saved, no matter what our sins. I'm truly count myself fortunate not to have been put to <B>that</B> particular test of my Faith---although I seem to have gotten a few tests along the way. <P>God bless you all.<P>PS: Terri---I understand that source of stress too. Are you referring in particular to your ability to "see" the issues you brought to your marriage, and then your formulation of a long-term Plan A as a source of stress, or just other daily situations that you're dealing with.<P>If you want to pull up another thread, I'll give advice how to see all sides, and then just act (and sometimes come off as an insensitive ...). I have that capability, too!

I think one of the concerns I have today in a society where divorce is widespread is the dilema that the divorcee is left with.<P>I sure don't like the idea of diluting the scriptures, or picking and chosing what fits best for me...but I know that a lot of folks fall under a lot of unnessary condemnation and hopelessness.<P>I know we could bring up countless cases we are familiar with, but one I know personally was faced with this. Raised in church her whole life, she married her high school sweet heart when she finished college. He said and did all the 'right things' as far as 'church' was concerned....but shortly after marriage, he just did a 180. Got involved with another woman...and shortly there after, just flat told his wife...he didn't love her anymore...didn't want to be married to her, didn't want to be a christian...and just walked out and filed for divorce. He never looked back.<P>I'm sure even worse case scenarios could be listed here.<BR>Now...what is the plight of this young bride? She prayed...and waited...and when it became apparent this was not some 'fling' her husband was toying with, she found herself totally abandoned. Will she be an 'adulteress' if she ever remarries?<P>Some would suggest the scriptures would not allow her to ever remarry until her ex-husband died. Seems like a pretty stiff sentance and interpretation of the scriputers, but, I stand to be corrected.<P>One thing I do see as a potential problem in the church today, is the number of divorces and remarriages that take place...without "substantial grounds" for divorce.<P>This lady I spoke of, ended up meeting someone else about two years later and married him and now have a beautiful child and family...all active in church. Am I happy for them? Sure...but herein...lies the potential problem.<P>Say another couple in this church is struggling in their marriage...unresolved conflict. Perhaps one of them wants out of the marriage. They see the 'apparent blessings' on this other couple...and can easily conclude that "God could have someone else better for them out there." And without knowing all the 'facts' of this lady's first marriage/divorce, you can easily see how subtle the thought process takes off.<P>As I mentioned in my original post here...something must be wrong...if the number of failed marriages in no different in the church than of those on the 'outside'.<P>

lighthouse,<BR>You have hit the nail on the head here. The fact that the divorce statistics among Christian couples parallels that of society in general is a huge problem that needs to be addressed. Many churches are waking up to this and implementing marriage mentoring programs, mandatory counseling for all engaged couples, Sunday school classes with marriage as the topic, and aother programs specifically designed to strengthen marriages.<P>I don't have a special connection with God that allows me to know more than anyone else what He believes on all of this, but I do have an opinion based on my relationship with Him. I believe that continued infidelity in a marriage is a type of abuse and I don't believe God demands than any spouse live in an abusive relationship. When that is the case...repeated infidelities, physical or other abuse....I believe that divorce is allowed and that remarriage does not create an adulterous situation for the wounded spouse.<P>Now, understand me here....I don't believe that it is appropriate to throw in the towel without some serious work and prayer to try to right the situation. I don't believe a woman or man should remain in a physically abusive situation, but do believe that once safety has been attained, that trying to get the offender into counseling and to make changes is a good idea. Physical safety should never be compromised, however.<P>I also believe that it is important to teach lessons on marriage and divorce in church that are truthful, but loving. For those couples who divorced for reasons that could have been rectified with some good intervention and counseling, but who are now remarried, I believe God can and will bless them as they grow in their relationships with Him and recognize and repent from the mistakes of the past.<P>Bottom line....every church in every denomination must begin to make marriage a high priority. We must make our churches a safe place for couples to be honest about the troubles they face....a place where we don't condemn, but give direction to help and love as they process through their crisis. We must not just walk couples down the aisle and marry them, sending them on their way. We must create mentoring programs where longer married couples are available to them as they learn about marriage. We must preach that marriage is always a work in progress....that we must put more effort into maintaining our marriages than we do our cars, yards, jobs, and other earthly possessions. We must teach that children are a gift from God and need our loving attention and guidance, but that the best gift we can give our children is a strong marital relationship between their parents. The marriage must be the center of the home...after the relationship with God...and the children come third.<P>I guess you can see that I'm quite passionate about this subject We can make the difference if we who have made the journey will step up and be willing to be part of the change in focus. I believe God expects it of us.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31