What has happened to this website? While yes, there is a lot of great information and help here in these forums, lately it seems like it has become...well, the best word that I can think of is "clique-ish". NB touched on part of it in regard to the noticable absense of the "Old Timers." I want to take this a step further.<P>Both NB's and Singagain's posts prompted me to look back at many recent posts in here. The first thing that I noticed was how the same groups of people stick together. Granted, I know that there are a lot more people posting today than there were a year ago, but to see some of these newer people getting one or even zero responses is sad. A year ago, we would <B>all</B> lift each other up. It seemed like we would literally praise one another to success. There is still a lot of support, but it's not even close to what it was before.<P>I've also noticed occurences where Vets/Semi-vets, will yes, respond to "newbies" (Jeez, I guess I would be a 'Tweener then), but they are somewhat condescending in their posts. If you want to make a point, great, please do, but just because you've been here a long time does not give you the right to talk down to new people. You can be direct without being rude.<P>Also, if you don't have anything nice to say about a fellow <B>serious</B> poster, than don't say anything at all. The thinly-veiled, sarcastic quips don't help anybody. Some people have a tendency to attack others because they show a different point of view - don't. A healthy debate is one thing, but belittling someone for having a different perspective is another. We've all been hurt - that's why we're here. Not one person here has a corner on the market. Try to help them instead of criticizing them.<P>This post is not directed towards any one person, but to this whole group (and I want to become better about this as well), Veterans, Old Timers, Tweeners, and Newbies alike, to try and get back what we had before. We should all feel comfortable here - it shouldn't just be exclusive to the "cool people." We all have the same goals...let's start acting like it.

Thank you for reminding me, Carolina Belle.<P>It has been with great difficulty that I have avoided some of the recent hurtful threads. It is sad to see this when I come back after a hiatus.<P>Can we all be strong together here?<P>All the best.<BR>--HBC

HI CB, what is really wrong? What is going on with you? I found your words disturbing, not because of what was written, bit probably because of some underlying problem? <BR>I dont come here as often as i used to, nor post as i used to, so maybe i am out of touch. <BR>I have not noted the behavior you are referring to. I see some pretty strange posts, some bizarre comments, but seems most are pretty encouraging. Those that do not want to work hard on the marriage, hear some gentle critiques, look at another point of view,will likely leave! <BR>Nice to see you again. aloha, cl<BR>

HBC - I know, I haven't been here that much lately, either. Maybe that's why I noticed this "change" so quickly, I don't know. It was very disheartening for me, also. But it's opened my eyes, also.<P>cl - Actually, things haven't been that bad on the homefront (I posted an update yesterday, <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008400.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008400.html</A> ) Our main stress right now is financial, but it looks like that will be resolved as of Monday. As far as our marriage goes, we're stuck somewhere between D-Day and Happily Ever After. It's not bad, but it's not the Cleaver's, either.<P>I agree, there is still support and encouragement, but it's not as prominent as it used to be. Like I said, maybe I'm noticing it because I've been so inactive. But I've noticed it, both directly and indirectly.<P>Good to see you again!

CB,<P>You know it never matters to me what you write, you always make me smile.<P>Know not on topice but just wanted you to know that when I see your name on a thread I get a smile in my heart.<P>

Well Howdy-Hey!! <P>You know, I could have written this myself!!<P>I logged in tonight, just to answer this thread (I had to leave suddenly when my BF came home and said "Turn off the computer, we're going out to dinner") (Am I one to turn down dinner out? I don't THINK so! ) and what did I find, but THREE NEW threads from newbies. God, is it just me or does it seem like either infidelity is growing or this site is??<P>In the end, there are too many in one phase or another of this ride we call infidelity, and simply not enough of us (oldies, newbies, in-betweenies) to go around. Plus, we all have our lives to try and get through, no matter what phase we are in... and some days are better than others... but even still, like for me, my divorce is final, I'm in a new relationship, but I *still* have to deal with my ex, I still have children with him, I still have to worry about things (like bills) that we had together (and neither of us can afford to buy the other out)... friends, life IS difficult.<P>I thank God for you ALL. You've saved my sanity waaay more times that I can count!<P>Now THAT'S sad! <P><BR>edit, edit: Carolina Belle, I have noticed the kind things you have said about me in a few threads. I could kiss you!! Thank you!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 19, 2001).]

Hi CB,<P>You bring up a valid point. I feel like I am fairly new (been posting this year end of Jan). The responses I had to my questions often came from those who had been here a while and some newer ones. All in all, I learned a lot. Sometimes I shared a bit of what I learned with others. <P>I respect the opinions of others and take what I can and to help me. I have even researched back others posts and noticed the following:<P>1. There was a fairly large group from last year that stayed in GQII. Some also went to the D/d site. <P>2.Those that joined this year seem to move quicker from recovery to GQII to the D/d site. Therefore, there is less <BR>coming on board this year that have the longevity as those seasoned vets from last year. I know, I have gone over to the d/d site due to my circumstances. Are we giving up easier, was there a lull for a while and now a new influx?<P>3. I believe there was a smaller group coming in at the beginning of the year, about when I started. We had the attention of those from last year and benefitted from personal attention.<P>4. I was away for 4 days in March, when I returned I saw many new names and have not been able to catch up since. Sometime in March - April, a large group came in. <P>5. Now there is a smaller group of those valuable and wise posters. They are stretched a bit thin. <P>Well, what can we do about this? Like you said, if we can help we should. I find it easier to work with a few (about 3 or 4) and I do look to see how they are doing. Remember we individually still have our own problems and sometimes need to address our issues to the board. <P>I don't consider that a clique, I am trying in my little way to give back the kind attention that was given me by those who came ahead of me. I do read more posts than I respond to and have learned a lot from others including yourself. <P>I think us newbies are not as strong as the group(s) before. You had a strong comarardory that is lacking here. The d/d board has a strong bond. Yet they are willing to take a newbie under their wings. I know this does exist here. The hearts of this group is giving. My thought is that there are many of us and the problems are larger than most of us. The need is greater than the supply.<P>As far as the attitude thing, I think you are right. We need to keep focused on the reason why we are here. To help and be helped. <P>If I personally have offended anyone by my posting, I do sincerely apologize. I will make a conscience effort to keep focused. <P>No one is 'holier than thou'. We all need to learn. I think we have all been hurt enough and do not need to hurt each other. I don't want to discourage those that have helped me. Sometimes they were straight forward, but that was 'medicine for me' at the right time. I was never offended by a posters comments. I know that for me a little humor helps bring my problems back to a more realistic size.<BR>Our lives are too short to make more problems. <P>Thanks for your straight talk. <P>L.

Sing - Thank you, that is so sweet!<P>NB - ***sigh*** Dinner dates. Jeez, I think Hot Pants were still in style the last time my H took me on a dinner date! You're training this guy very well! LOL!<P>This whole thing is a huge wake-up call for me, as well. I'm sitting here at my computer, reading everything from sarcastic posts to heart-wrenching posts with only one response. That bothered me...then I asked myself, "Hey, Kettle, how many posts have <B>YOU</B> responded to in the past month." My resolution is to get better at helping those I can.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>edit, edit: Carolina Belle, I have noticed the kind things you have said about me in a few threads. I could kiss you!! Thank you!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Hey, 110-post threads tend to give you one hell of a perspective! LOL! That's the real reason I went on hiatus - my brain needed the break! No problem!<P>Orchid - Very, very well put. And I wasn't directing that toward any one person...I just noticed it and wanted to bring it to everyone's attention. I can understand that many of us are in a Plan A on our homefront, and after giving, giving, giving, we come here and let our Takers run rampant. Hey, it's better to let it loose here than with our spouse in an already tense situation. But even a "Hang in There," or "You're doing great, keep it up," to somebody will help (Terri brought this up a few months ago). <P>I know that I wouldn't be able to give advice to somebody who is has to deal with their spouse living with the OP because I've never been there - BUT I can give them encouragement. I can tell them to hang in there. <P>And I appreciate bluntness, believe me. But when people cross the line from "being direct" to "talking down" to someone, I have a problem with that. <P>Thank you for the perspective!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Carolina Belle (edited April 19, 2001).]

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

<<Dinner dates. Jeez, I think Hot Pants were still in style the last time my H took me on a dinner date! >><P>CB, I didn't think you were even born when Hot Pants were around, or have they been in fashion & I missed it? :

<B>CB - </B> Well, I felt my ears burning this morning and now I know why.<P>You reflect on how the board was a year ago, well I reflect on how it was <I>two</I> years ago. Constructive criticism was allowed. We didn't have the PC police to come in judging every comment that wasn't construed to be "completely supportive".<P>What I see here now is the three "V"'s : Victimization, Validation and Vile demonization of anyone not conforming to the first two.<P>People come here because they have suffered the most tragic event that can occur in a marriage. Someone here a great while back said it best. "An affair is worse than your spouse dying because your spouse would not <I>choose</I> death."<P>Now it appears that there are many here who confuse "support" with "victimization" and "validation". In <I>most</I> cases, an affair happens due to a poor decision by a BS in response to a troubled marriage that <I>both</I> partners share responsibility for. That is one of the first things a BS needs to come to grips with. It will never help anything for a BS to adopt the attitude of a "victim". Certainly doesn't conform in anyway with Plan A. Encouraging someone to continue to feel like a victim is not going to restore their marriage.<P>Others come here seemingly to have everyone "validate" their current and past actions. If someone is choosing the wrong behavior or actions, don't expect me to give them a "pat on the back". You wouldn't try to help a troubled, alcoholic friend by giving them a beer or telling them that it's OK to have a drink now and then.<P>cl made a great point: "Those that do not want to work hard on the marriage, hear some gentle critiques, look at another point of view,will likely leave". My only difference with this point is that it will take them a while to leave after they have tried to do as much damage as possible to those they believe have offended them. In the few months, there have been more and more of the "xyz made me mad so I'm leaving" posts. There have also been postings where someone disagreed with something another poster had said, so they tried to incite a "piling-on" of the offender. You know, "Everyone write nasty things to this person because I was offended by what they said". It certainly is troublesome to see that now anyone who disagrees or tries to issue a "wakeup" call is now labeled "sarcastic" or "talking down". This type of thing didn't exist on the board a couple of years ago and people were "dressed down" a lot more than they are now. Just ask Sheryl, she was the object of many a put-down a whole lot worse that what we have seen in the last couple of days. Her response was not "I'm leaving the board".<P>Now, come on, this is childish behavior not a true discourse between adults.<P>I would imagine that my response a day ago to a poster is a primary reason for your post here. If you were to take the time to consider the conversation, my <B>only</B> beef with that person was their attack on another. Not how they've been treated by WS, not how they are trying to repair their marriage, only how they treated someone here. I did my research on prior postings before opening my mouth. I do this most of the time. Can everyone critical of me make the same statement? I'll bet you don't know 2 percent of my story.<P>About my reply to that post, I want to say two things:<BR>One - I made an attempt at humor only to try to get a smile out of the attacker. It was not sarcastic, if you still think so, I would suggest a dictionary. Second - I do not feel I was disrespectful of the poster. I even issued a compliment about their Plan A. I only thought there was a massive "over-reaction" to one replier.<P>On the issue of "cliques", we are all human beings with a long-lived sociology. In any large group of people, there will be those who congeal together because of some commonality. It happens here as it does on any online forum, as it does in any work place, as it does everywhere on the planet. It is obvious from postings that you participate in that you are a member of a couple of "cliques". I don't see the harm there. You certainly do respond to people outside your cliques as well as welcoming them to respond to your postings. But you do still have a group of people that you can depend on when the going gets rough. I think this is a good thing.<P>Someone replied to one of Sheryl's posts a few days ago and made a comment about the board's "PC Police". I was skeptical about that comment then, but I truly do understand it now.<P>There is a beautiful and true-to-life quotation I can give from Frank Herbert's Dune - "' If you put away those who report accurately, you'll keep only those who know what you want to hear,' Jessica said, her voice sweet. 'I can think of nothing more poisonous than to rot in the stink of your own reflections.'". I believe that this type of thing is happening more and more here.<P>I always want to be supportive and helpful, if I can, to people having problems roping in a WS or trying to put their marriage back together. I do draw the line when someone here is attacked for trying to present a different point of view. This board is populated by all types of people, eternal optimists, unrepentent pessimists, cheerful smiley-types and well-meaning curmudgeons(guess this is me...looked up the word and saw a picture of my face). This ain't gonna change nor should anyone want it to. Variety is the spice of life. <P>OK, soapbox mode off and thanks for allowing the intrusion into your thread...<P><B>Orchid -</B>Part of the reason for the strong bond on the D/D board is that most of those people were active contributors on the GQ I board before their divorces became inevitable. They were "cyber-friends" before that board was established. Many of them still reply to my posts and I still consider them good friends even if our circumstances were different.<P>You mentioned that there were some people who were "straight forward" with you. I would think that if those same people posted exactly the same advice to some here today, they would be branded as sarcastic or un-caring. That's too bad. I got shot at a few times, too...ask k...Even if my feelings were hurt, I didn't respond with an attack or a "call-to-arms". You look at the message, not shoot the messenger...<P>--DeWayne--

Amen DeWayne. Growth hurts, while fuzzy validations without substance stagnate us!

We have a lady here in the office who is so nice in person but her e-mail tends to tick everyone off. I've seen her in their typing away in a frenzy. She wrote me one which hurt my feelings then 10 minutes later she wanted to know if I wanted to go to lunch. She had no clue how she comes across. I think it is easy to vent off at people because of the anonymous nature of the forum. Sometimes people are just in moods! I don't have a lot of good advice for people because Lord knows I haven't been the greatest wife and mother, but it is nice just to let someone know you read their post and can sympathize.<P>Sometimes I get discouraged when there are no replies to my posts, so I tend to post back to those who have answered me. Human nature I guess. I'll try to do better. Hope everyone has a great weekend.<p>[This message has been edited by Janie (edited April 20, 2001).]

<B>BrambleRose - </B>Thanks...That is pretty much the point I'm trying to get across....Stated more succinctly by you...<P>--DeWayne--

DeWayne,<P>That's the shortest post I've ever! seen by you!! <P>What is this world coming to?

Hey, <B>Sheryl, </B>no one seems to like my long posts anymore...<P>--DeWayne--

Jeez DeWayne, you're going to make me think on a Friday?! If it sounds somewhat muddled, it's because I've worked 5 straight 10-hour-shifts and my brain is fried. <P>First, I have to touch upon the PC Police thing - anybody who has read my posts knows that I am as politically incorrect as they come. I fully agree that one should call a Spade a Spade...but when people berate the Spade and tell the Spade he/she is wasting their time and fighting a lost cause, THAT I have a problem with.<P>Validation...I think that the one area where people DO deserve validation is with regards to Plan A/Plan B. Anyone who has done Plan A knows that it goes against what comes naturally. It goes against what other people (friends and family) are telling you to do. And for Plan A'ers dealing with spouses in the fog, it's even harder. You don't get any appreciation for your Plan A efforts when you have a spouse in the fog. The only people who are on the same page as you are the MBers on this site. So if someone comes on here and wants <B>validation</B> for their Plan A efforts, they should definitely get it here. They're not going to get it from their friends, family, or spouses right now. <P>Next, and I can only speak for myself here. I don't expect validation for my "vent posts." During my counseling sessions with Jennifer, I learned that I was doing a fine job of meeting my H's needs, but the Love Busters were out of control. So I put most of my energy into trying to prevent Love Busters and Plan Aing my husband. What do I do when I get angry or frustrated? I come here, get <B>everything</B> (and then some) out of my system, turn a page, and move on. I'm looking for a release, not "validation." <P>If I'm unsure of my Plan or how it's progressing, I call Jennifer and schedule an appointment. If it's a little question (ie - should I go on a vacation without my H at this point), I will post it. If I need a good swift kick in the butt to get me back on track, believe me, I'll post it.<P>I don't think that you've ever been condescending. Direct - yes. Of course I'm not going to like to be told that hating the OW will do no good - especially when she is so <B>very</B> hatable. But I can certainly appreciate your point - you're right. But when people get cynical and declare that you're wasting your time on your marriage, the WS is never going to change, etc - that goes against the very principles of this site! If someone is working to repair their marriage, they should NOT be criticized for it!<P>I agree with you about the victimization, and I feel that that is what is taking away a lot of posters from the people who actually need the help. That normally causes subsequent justification by the WS, and that couple spends the next year having the same fight instead of recovering. Trust me, I learned that one the hard way. And that's how some people are going to have to learn. Hey, that's life.<P>This isn't meant to be a "call to arms" - this was simply meant to have all people (myself included) take a step back and evaluate our purpose here a little more closely.

Hi DeWyane, Sheryl & the rest,<P>Ok, I may be a bit sensitive (not in a negative way) but I do feel bad for all of us out here. Just the fact that we have to here writing our feelings, situations and experiences is hard. Then spread it over the time many have been here (I have only been here since Jan 01, should have been here since Sept 99 - when H started his stuff), seeing history repeat itself just with different names/dates and places is very painful. <P>I have posted various parts of my situation lots of times but not near as much as many of you. I would like to say that the 'old timers' need a break but there just seems to be more and more of us pouring in and not reaching the level of emotional maturity that was displayed in the past. So some are quick to give up and others are frustrated. <P>You know what? We are all people here, with our own lives and choose to spend a part of it here asking for help and giving help. The gain here is not monetary. Even paid counselors can give bad advice, hurt our feelings, make us angry yet sometimes we pay them to do that. <P>I have received good advice here similar to what my counselor told me, I know I have been talking to him over the phone. I can not afford to go as often as I need to so I have used this forum and it has helped tie me over. This is NOT a bad thing. Are we starting to expect the people here to answer all our problems without us trying to work it out ourselves? Would be nice but not pratical. So we keep plugging along. When advice does come our way, we should take the part that is good for us and throw out what does not apply and go on. Make progress!!!!<P>I need to say this, I have read some of those posts that were considered offensive, except for a very few (flygirl, oniblade and a couple on the p/c site), all the posts I read were sent with care and some straight talk which if taken correctly is extremely helpful. Now those few exceptions? Well, they were by newbies that did not belong, they came primarily to express their hurt and not want help, in fact some of those meant to make others hurt. <BR>When that happened, those on board came out in full support of the rest of us. For that they should be commended. <P>That p/c board that Terri posted about. There are some sad stories out there, those people are dealing with our issues and then some. Can we take what we learned and share with them? I have seen a couple of them show up here. Let's not scare them away. We should want to help them also. In return I think it will help us. <P>There is a saying about more happiness in giving than in receiving. I believe this is true. <P>For those of you that have been supporting us for a long time and going dealing with your situations as well, you deserve a standing ovation. For those of us newbies here, let's take a lesson. Some of us are ready to help others while getting help ourselves. There are 2 ladies on the d/d board that used to be here, they visit sometimes, while their issues are big and they have children to deal with, they have taken their time to help others. For that I have seen them grow. In fact there are more than just 2, there are many more (they are just more quiet here). <P>Ok, I have said my peace. I will shut up now and go back to my housework. What a vacation, taxes, fixing H's messes and housework. Anyone want to trade?<P>L.<P>

<BR>I post mostly on prayer request. I do read and sometimes posts other topics. This one caught my attention. I try and stay away from some topics.Gotten into some of those debates. Decided it was best for me not to go there. We will<BR>"clique" together which is proably better in cutting down on debates. <P>I do try to answer post with few or no replies. I do know that the prayer request board is very supportive and has grown recently. Everyone there does a good job of encouraging one another.<P>Maybe everyone just needs a reminder every now and then.<P>Thanks,<BR>gentle