Well, here goes. I have had it. Not at the end of my rope, just my frustration. <P>H is a waffler. When he and OW have sex or OW has her PMS attacks, he comes back saying he wants to come home. Then, he renegs and goes back to waffling. He breaks up with her. She will not be outdone, she must also break up with him. Then either one initiates a return followed suit by the other one. <P>What do you call that when the above scenario repeats itself over and over and over again? Every month at least 2-3 times. <P>I am tired of watching this charade. Even though I have stepped off the rollercoaster, I am still getting dizzy watching this mess. Why can't I just walk away and avoid all contact with WS? Because we have a child, he owes me money, we are still legally married and I still love the nut!!!<P>Now because of the above situation, I am proposing to do the following. By 5/1/01, H must choose another place to live. He said today, that he is looking for another place but has no money for deposit or rent. Oh well, too bad. That is what got him in trouble in the first place. He forgot to put energizer batteries in his calculator. <P>OW wants him bad, yes she broke up with him last week, changed her mind in the same week or day not sure again for the umteenth time. In view of all this, I propose that H live with OW until his guilt passes. H just needs to pay his obligations to me, all his loans, credit cards, back taxes, etc.<P>I do not want to deal with his returning guilt and his continual leaving. This home is not a revolving door. I am not a doormat.<P>I expect to get dumped or flamed for this but I do not know what else to do. Any suggestions would be helpful. Since there are many respected ones on this site and the d/d site, I am posting this message there also. <P>Thanks,<BR>L. <P>

Orchid - I validate your frustration and admire you for sticking it out this long. Sounds like the perfect time for Plan B. Put it all in writing and do it. Please balance all the other advice you get - I know you will, then sleep on it to be sure.<P>WAT

Hi Orchid I've been reading your story for several days and I know what its like to live with a waffling H, got one here myself. I think its good you set a deadline with H, what will you do if he wont move out by then? File for divorce? If he cant come up with a deposit and rent for his own apt what makes him think divorce will be in your budget? I hear these attorneys charge 20K for a divorce. I told my H I would contest everything so ours will be really expensive if we end up going that route. My H wont move out again ( he did for a month- lived at OW's condo after she moved out to take a job transfer- cheap rent huh?) but he moved back home because the condo was sold by then.My H found out it affects custody if he moves out so now he wont. Does your H have any CLUE what divorce costs and how the A would affect his right to custody? My attorney and H's attorney tell us completely opposite things so I dont even know what to believe but my H will be taking the risk if we get to that point. Find the best damn attorney you can. I asked at my church - there was a lawyer there and he checked around for me. Get a credit card in your own name and get a free consultation with an attorney.I just ordered some books online about divorce too- just so I wont freak out about the financial stuff. I"ve been a SAHM for 15 yrs while H has travelled and relocated 5 times for his job. 3 kids here so he'd be paying $$$ and alimony. Mine filed for D on me last wk( OW urged him too in order to get back on her good side after he keeps waffling with her) but then he came to his senses and cancelled the D action. Is he messed up or what? I feel for you Orchid. Like the boy scout motto- Be Prepared. Knowledge is power. Hugs to you. lifeismessy

Orchid,<BR> <BR> Since I am still new here and still realizing my own pain, I won't say much.<BR> The words of encouragement that you offered are the same that I offer. Your support group is here.<BR> I will pray that you can do what is right for you and your son.<P>God Bless.<P>------------------<BR>QAEng

Orchid,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Orchid:<BR>Why can't I just walk away and avoid all contact with WS? Because we have a child, he owes me money, we are still legally married and I still love the nut!!!<BR>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR>First, hang in there!<BR>A few days ago someone referred to your H as a cake man. This seems to fit. It the short time I've been coming here, it sounds like he is definately in the FOG! I have a sense he still loves you as well -- he's just very confused.<BR>Remember, Dobson's book offers a different strategy to get WS back (no guarantees of course, but also establish some balance of power so to speak).<BR>Unless you feel it is to your advantage (sounds manipulative, but you have to fight for your rights & WS has certainly gone outside the boundries of fair play), the D thing does not have to be a financial issue -- again assuming there's no contesting -- there's a divorce website & you can download info for your state & get sample agreement or whatever for $25.<BR>I feel he may use financial thing as reason not to file for D. But this could be a way to get him off the fence?<BR>Be strong, as I know you can be. You are right about the rollcoaster -- you don't have to stay on if it's making you sick!<BR>Peace!<BR>HH<BR>

Hi WAT, Life, QAeng & HH,<P>WAT, <BR>Thanks for your support. If you get a chance, check out what happened yesterday on the d/d site of this post. It is too long to post here. H got real jealous and sent an e-mail warning me about 'all the men' here. Makes me mad. <P>Having advice from anyone here is taken just as that, advice. I do not look at the gender and determine how I take it. <P>Life,<BR>H has no clue about a lot of things. Even his mental calculator is broke. He did not budget well and now can no live on his own for some strange reason, he will not go live with OW either, but that may change. 5/1/01 is the deadline. Money moves. ...... Yes, I know about attorney's fees and stuff. CA has some pretty standard laws and we don't have a lot of property to split. Except for the debit and child support stuff, it is pretty easy. Unless OW jumps in the picture. Thanks for your support.<P>QAeng,<BR>I appreciate your support. You are going through a lot yourself and it is good you can lend support to others. It is a type of healing to our individual souls to be able to help others. That wise saying "there is more happiness in giving than in receiving" is true. <P>Thanks again. <P>HH,<P>Hanging in is hard. I am trying. Yesterday, there was a short conversation with H. I avoided 6+ of his phone calls and pages yesterday . Finally at night I accidently answer the phone and it is him. I ask him when is he going to pick up the rest of his things from the garage. He then changed the subject to saying that he is trying to be respectful.<P>Right, by leaving bits and pieces of himself in our home. He thinks he is still here. Well he is not here in mind, spirit and body. Only his tools are here scattered all over the garage so I can not use it properly. That is part of the frustration. H leaves pieces of himself and we are suppose to settle for that. I can't. This allows him to keep waffling. He is content with that. He has not make any effort to either move all his things out or straighten up his things in the garage. <P>Then he said if I did not appreciate his being respectful (I questioned that - another LB), then he did not need to give me money. Hm.... how did he get to that conclusion? He abruptly hung up. He was at work waiting for the customer to come out (2nd job driving limos). Later I call back to ask what part of the conversation did I miss to make him tell me he was not giving me money. Especially since the money that he needs to give me is not for my living expenses but to pay for his expenses that I fronted for him plus his back taxes, insurances and day care fees for our son. Not even child support. Go figure. <P>Then he says, oh I did not mean that, I was just trying to make a point. And the point is.....? I did not get the point. He said, I will always give you money. Well for the past 4 months he has been out, he still owes me alone over 2k + more to others. The money I do get is because I have to ask for it, none has been volunteered. This is why it is frustrating. Sorry to dump on you guys like this but I feel like, he wants me to see he is being respectful and be appreciative of him but I get to be dumped on. Being an adulterer and then expecting respect for every little act that he does with an attitude is hard. Especially when it is ok for him to be threatening and disrespectful to his family. End of 2nd coversation.<P>Next, I call H to tell him that when we as parents and spouses do more than our jobs, then yes, we should be appreciated. However, what he has done for us so far is still within his realm of his duty. He mowed the lawn, I thanked him. He gave his paycheck for this week, I thanked him. He has done nothing beyond the call of a husband and father, infact he is greatly lacking. I owe him no more than I have already given. In fact, if we need to compare I asked when was the last time he thanked me for keeping up the house, paying the bills, taking care of our son, cooking, cleaning, keeping our family together despite what he has done to us, deal with H, go to work, etc. H conceded. The said thanks. Small victory.<P>About 11 pm, H calls from work to say that he has thought about why he is in his quandry and says that he feels that if we do divorce, he will want to come back, OW will stand in his way and his family will not be available for him. <BR>He could not say more because that thought upset him. He seemed to think this was a revelation but he has made that statement before. <P>My thoughts on this are now. My feelings are dwindling down. Our son is at a stage where he does not ask about his dad as much any more. I am not sure how much longer I can keep the door open for H. If he presents me with divorce papers now, I will sign them (after proper review - I need to collect what he owes me financially and for child support/day care,etc.). I am researching my options here in CA. There are not much since D is a pretty equation type of thing here this being a community property state with no fault type of D. Will I accept H back after a divorce? I think not. The door of opportunity will be closed. I will need to reroute my heart to search out a way to move on. Whether I find someone else or stay alone, that will be my choice but taking H back will not be an open option for me. <P>See H threw back in my face 2 days ago that if he comes back now and drops OW, he may leave for another (currently unknown OW - to have another A). YUCK!!!! So, tough love? May be getting to no love. This hurts. <P>I let H know that on the phone this morning. He was kind of sleepy so I am not sure how much of it he got. This is important for me since his fixed deadline and mine is 5/1/01. Seems to be a due date for several here. <P>I did not get Dobson's book from the library yesterday. I will go to the bookstore today.<P>Thanks for your support and advice. <P>L.<P><BR>

Orchid, I see that you are on the quick road to divorce with your current attitude. Again, I do not say this to be mean or cruel, but to be honest and helpful. And the rest of this message is based solely on what you have told us here on the forum.<P><B>Plan A...</B> have you truly ever Plan A'd by avoiding lovebusters (which are not defined by the BS but by the WS)? You have not made the marriage a safe or comfortable place for him to be - even though you have not made monetary demands or started divorce proceedings, you have consistently questioned and discussed the marriage, the affair, his obligations to you and your family. When he has begun to come out of the fog a little, it seems that you have pounced on him to get committments and promises. It is possible that your interactions with him have driven him back into the fog.<P>So now he is not happy with OW, and he is not happy with you ... is it any wonder that he is imagining that he would only cheat on you again if he returned?<P><B>Plan B ...</B> Tough Love ... It won't work to bring him back with the committment you desire. In his fog, he believes that being with you is not going to be better, because he hasn't seen any evidence of that. He might come back, but unless you can deal with his lack of interest in restoring the marriage, he most likely WILL cheat again.<P>Is this <I>fair</I>? No. It sucks rocks. It smells to high heaven. It is incredibly difficult to accept. But... it is what it is. Recovery from infidelity with a man who is not sure he can recommit will put most of the work on your shoulders for a significant amount of time. Dr. Harley warns the BS <I>not even to expect any sign of remorse,</I> particularly in the early stages of the recovery process. And, if you talk to any of the former WS's here that are back with their spouses and making recovery work for both of them, you will find that is <B>not</B> because they don't feel awful about what they've done, it is often because they feel <B>so awful</B> that they believe an apology cannot possibly suffice... they believe that you could never truly forgive them.<P>Sometimes, it is necessary to forgive someone before they have stopped hurting us. It brings peace to you, and can often convince them that they CAN be forgiven.<P>Please, please, please take this message in the spirit in which it was intended. I <B>want you to reconcile with your husband</B> - I have no other reason for posting to people here. I want you and him and your children to have each other throughout your natural lifetimes ... the way it is supposed to be. You are so much closer than I ever was during my Plan A ... it hurts me to see you push him away when he is truly reaching out.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Dear Terri,<P>No, I am not offended in any way. I appreciate your candid and caring remarks. They are for the ultimate benefit of my family and I take it in no other spirit than that. <P>You have made some valid points. Please help me (I know you are very busy) understand my true position. <P>1. I found out in Nov 00. H moved out 12/31/00. I worked hard on helping H. Planned A big time. H even saw the progress. H went out anyway. H claimed to want to come back but OW has a strong/addicting hold on H. He is emotionally weak and will listen to whatever she has to say. <P>2. This has placed him in a middle of a tug of war between <BR>OW twisting his heart and the piece of his heart and mind knowing where he belongs and somewhat wants to be. <P>3. The confusing piece is that due to personal issues (possible bi-polar disorder,low self-esteem - 6 job change last year, etc.) H is in a quandry and can not decide which way to go. Been that way since I found out in Nov. <P>4. When with OW, H wants to come back. When with us, H wants OW. I finally took us out of the picture. One to save my santity, two to help H decide. Well, H said if allowed, he would stay in this state forever. He is angry that he feels this way and does not want help nor will he go and get help. He has already said he will not seek help. <P>5. I find that, that leaves me in a quandry. H is not supportive. What we get from him is when we ask. H on the other hand periodically asks us for things - loan him some money, rearrange our appointments for his needs - h used son's hair appointment because it was a better time for H. - made me to the taxes on the basis that he was coming home, then changed his mind, etc. <P>6. I feel that he uses us. He feels that as long as he does not 'say' he is using us or does not care about us that it is ok to treat us that way. This bothers me. I went to plan B - protection of my family. No contact except for business/child visitation/mail. The exception was last night's phone calls. <P>7. 2 weeks ago, H came back and basically proposed to give up all if I would guarantee his return. I did with the condition that he give up OP first. I did not want to be 2nd string. That promise did not last. My 1st comments on this post outline the events. <P>8. I am now at the point where his words do not match his actions and his actions show him leaving his family. I am prepared for both. The needs of my son & I are now rising and require attention. I can not be available at H's beck and call without being detrimental to our family. H has said he will stay in this position as long as he can. I can not allow it. It has drained me financially and emotionally. Other ways also but those are the main ones. <P>9. H knows I forgiven him for what has happened in the past. We have discussed and I have said that I am willing to put it in the past and move forward. H keeps throwing in 'what if....'. He said not to long ago that he wanted to keep his options open with OW & me. I don't want to be an option. How do I help him see that? I have already told him that before. <P>Terri, I deeply respect your thoughts. I can be a bit stubborn but my heart is really in the right place. Giving and giving is what I do. I am willing to work but no longer willing to be stepped on. I am also willing to take responsibility for my actions. I do think hard before I do things. This does not make me perfect. I try my best and sometimes I fall short. H gets mad because he says that I don't make as many mistakes as he does and hold this against me. Does that mean I need to make mistakes to stroke his ego? No. I can not. I need to do my best to survive. I do try to be understanding with H, but his personality has always been one to fight even when he knows he is fighting what is right. That has been our stumbling block. His pride. <P>Insight on how to fix that may be the key. I am still looking for that key. <P>Terri, or someone, please help me find it.<P>Thanks,<BR>L.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited April 22, 2001).]

Orchid, I really wish I had the key... I'd share it with everyone, that's for sure.<P>I can't respond as fully as I'd like right now, but I promise I will re-read and post something more at another time. I'm glad you understand that I really am only trying to help... not like the mean-spirited interlopers over at P/C.<P>I'll be back.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>