i didn't read the mountain of response, there is just too much, but let me just add this. sounds like you've tried and tried again to make things right for sex. sounds like you've done everything one man can be expected to do.<BR>my advice to you is give up and move on.<BR>there are many women that are available to you that will love to have sex. stop wasting your time. if your w doesn't want to have sex let her find someone who doesn't want to have sex with her. then she'll be happy.

Thank you, I know this may be a selfish thing to say but I feel like some of the replies are actually doing some good now whereas before it felt like "old ground" (being honest here).<P>There is a lot to reply to... I am one of those pedantic people who likes to reply to each and everything but that would be too hard so I appologise if anyone's question gets missed, its not intentional.<P>Dr Harley - I have read everything on here with great interest... and initially it filled me with great hope. The problem is that all of the concepts here require two people, even though some require only 1 to start with. The solution is when two people want to make it work and I guess my newly found depression comes from the fact I do not see two people at work here. I have spoken with her about these concepts and she has agreed with them on principle... but no practice has followed (a typical trait for her).<P>Already had an affair? - I believe both of us have come "close" but neither of us have actually been there. We each have friends of the opposite gender and I am sure we use them for many different things and there have been times of "chemistry" but in my heart I dont think any of them have come to be that strong<P>Pilot's Wife - Oh how I wish my W was more like you... regardless how much resentment I will _ever_ have, if she came to me with your enthusiasm I would welcome her back with open arms. She has a toy already... in fact we have many but she has told me she has absolutely no interest in using them outside of "our" intimacy.<P>I understand your comments about a need to feel in control and that is something we have realised as a problem and on a few occasions I have left full and complete control in her hands... even to the point of placing a pillow over my head and holding my hands behind my back so that she has no fear of me taking control or exhibiting _any_ control at all... this worked but she hasn't tried to repeat it.<P>there is something within her that stops her from "trying". At least you were WANTING to improve your sexuality even after such a horrible experience, unfortunately I cannot see her wanting to improve anything.<P>One thing I do want to say though is that perhaps "sex" isn't the right word to use... I have realised its meaning is different to me than to other people. For me, the term encompasses intimacy, touch, exploration, excitement but above ALL else the GIVING of pleasure to the other person.... that is my need... not to TAKE pleasure but to give it.<P>I believe that I may even have a psychological problem here that stems from my childhood (we all do) that requires me to be able to "please" someone. I am only ever fulfilled in sex when my partner is over the moon with joy and totally satiated. So to answer the question of do I need only sex from this other person?... no, I need this other person to feel satisfied, perhaps even to hear them say "That was amazing, you are amazing".<P>In every relationship I have had... including this one I have always been told in that respect I am unbelievable, incredibly attentive, totally selfless, frighteningly capable and have been the "highlight" of their lives when it comes to sex/intimacy.<P>So perhaps the core of my resentment comes more from feeling inadequate now than in her not wanting sex.... my brain cannot stop thinking "If I am so capable, and SHE thinks I am so capable, THEN her not wanting sex now MUST mean I am a failure". I know in my heart that is NOT true.... but something keeps bringing that thought back to me and everyone on here has said your gut instincts are usually right.<P>As for leaving her, its something I have thought about many times and I guess the main thing that stops me is that I see in her someone who has great need, someone who is hurting... I know its egotistical of me but I think I can help her and considering the people that have tried in the passed I am almost "scared" that she will be damaged more with these uncaring people. So I stay and endure this in the hope that one day she can stand tall as a whole person and I will know in my heart that I have done something good for someone.

LostSoul:<P>As I'm sure you now realize, there is a fundamental difference between Dr. Harley's views about sexual fulfillment, and the views of many forum participants.<P>Dr. Harley believes that the need for sexual fulfillment is a legitimate emotional need, particularly for a man, and as important as any other need. Whereas the more common opinion is that this need, if it's even legitimate, is far subordinate to things like affection and communication.<P>It's common to be told to "fix the relationship problems", and then the sex will follow. Well, dammit, the lack of sex IS one of the problems! And if that need is high on your list, it's a big problem.<P>Suppose you are a spouse who complains of a lack of affection or communication from your mate. Would it be reasonable to suggest that you initiate sex with your spouse 2-3 times a day for 2 weeks, and then the AFFECTION will follow? Well, is it? Anyone?<P>Unfortunately, I think the only lesson here is that, sometimes, life just sucks. It's not fair, but there's nothing we can do about it.<P>There IS one thing about sex that IS different than the other needs. Under the spell of the biggest fantasy of all, our engagement and wedding, we promise our spouse the exclusive right to meet that need. Later, if our spouse refuses to meet that need, we are left with no ethical alternatives.<P>This, of course, is the main reason why God gave us hands.

Doug,<P>You bring up excellent points! And I must admit, I never looked at it that way. Thanks for opening my eyes, a bit. Maybe those therapists that say, if you're having sexual problems, HAVE MORE SEX are right. Because, like you said, why is that any different than, if you're having trouble communicating, TALK MORE? Hmmm, I'm glad my H doesn't read the forum. Because this is the last area of our marriage that I'm still not completely comfortable with. I still wish I had more sexual desire for him, in the way that I know he wants it. And, just like he was told by our therapists that he needs to be open and honest with me and, though he is a conflict avoider, he must share his thoughts with me EVERYDAY so that it will become easier, why haven't I been told to have sex with him everyday?<P>Wow, much to think about now. Thanks Doug. Errrrrrrr! <P>LostSoul,<P>I suspected that it was more than sex you were after. And again, by your own admission, you'd be looking for intimacy and a real connection. Well, I know I don't have to remind you that if you were to seek and attain this with someone else, it would all but destroy what you have with your W. So, being the intelligent, self-reflective man that you are, I know you aren't going to walk into this head on knowing what the outcome will be. The rest of us dummies had no idea. Just call yourself, "the man who knew too much," and thank God. Like Doug said, life ain't always fair. But at least there is always hope that your W will begin to understand.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

New woman -<P>Isn't there some danger in forcing yourself to have sex with him everyday if you don't really feel the desire? I would think that there is some risk in engendering resentment. Sex is a delicate thing between people in love. The physical release is universal, but the bonding and feeling of closeness comes only when both parties want and enjoy the experience. <P>From my experience with W, the part about MUST be open and honest EVERYDAY, would be extremely difficult to abide by. It's really necessary, but hard to do...And it's probably good that your H doesn't know your true feelings about sexual desire, it would probably be a drastic hit on his ego and feelings of self-worth.<P>Anyway, my two cents worth....

Lost Soul--<P>This is a very interesting, thought provoking thread. I do thank you for starting it, and do sympathize with your pain and wish you hadn't had the reason FOR starting the thread in the first place.<P>Some quick thoughts--hope I don't seem too abrupt, but I've little time at the moment. I'll check back later and perhaps be able to expound if any of my points are of assistance.<P>My first marriage was 16 years...of not having enough sex. Communication in that area wasn't the greatest, obviously, and <BR>was a big part of the problem. However, we were compatible in all other areas and were able to acknowledge that we loved each other, though the feelings of being "in-love" were suffering. It just wasn't enough for me. I had affairs, which included emotional and physical needs I had lacked with him. I told him of this. He was actually, at least in words, supportive of me. I probably began to ignore other emotional needs he had during that time, the situation snowballed (as you can imagine), and HE had an affair...with my permission. We were, in essence, done; the situation had gone too far out of control, we separated slowly and divorced. (I am happily married now. After a rocky start, my second husband meets my emotional and physical needs beautifully, and I his, but we sure suffer in the common interests department, lol--does it somehow become a trade-off? In some cases, perhaps.--without going into much detail at the moment, I will say our sex life is quite varied, and we've had a few experiences of non-monogomy, agreed upon and together, the needs of BOTH constantly monitored, and stop MEANS stop. I feel this is a phase, and we will end up monogomous in the passage of time.)<P>One thought occurred to me...John Gray speaks of how, esp. in the case of men who have trouble remembering to compliment, to just DO it, even if it's mechanical to start. When they make a habit of complimenting their wives, the husband begins reaping the benefits of a more attentive partner willing to supply HIS needs, and the compliments start flowing more naturally. Maybe this idea would be of assistance in your wife's case...to just HAVE sex with you, mechanically to begin with...if you can come up with an agreeable compromise in that area OR even in another area. Who says we can't compromise in and out of different areas?--it's done all the time. Example: an attractive young woman might marry some "old fogie" for his riches/does she not agree, in essence, to have sex with him in exchange for meeting HER need of financial security for the rest of her life? Maybe there's something your wife needs that would entice her to be more accommodating, in the beginning of this compromise, to your need for sex/intimacy. I couldn't begin to imagine, you would have to tell US if that's a possibility. Will sound quite petty, but again for sake of an example..maybe she needs a new car?--one she's been dreaming about for years? The point here is that both partners win-win. To begin meeting each other's needs, maybe they DON'T have to originate in the same area, but can slowly intersect in the middle.<P>Oops, I gotta run. One quick question though...are you sure your wife has ever achieved orgasm?<P>------------------<BR>Laura<P>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen<BR>

Heartpain,<P>I was just contemplating the point Doug brought up. Truthfully, I don't think I physically could keep up with having sex every single day. Also, my H does know my true feelings and my lack of desire. I want total openness and honesty from him, therefore, I must be totally open and honest with him. I would never withhold that information from him because he needs to know and needs to be a part of it. The first 15 years of our marriage, I withheld that info from him. Look at where that got me! Not about to go down that road again. No way. I tell him everything now, and I like it that way.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Hi LostSoul,<BR>Good thread, I want to do a flip of the same problem. I am the female in the story. H is just now becoming a little more interested. He spent 6 months on the internet having a cyber-affair and I, (at first), thought "Oh goody, he's horney." And well he might have been, but not for me. He had "sex" several times a week on the computer but he told me that sex with me was "work", that sex with Her was exciting, different, easier, and that he didn't think he could ever give me what he gave her. Let me say up front that I am an open- minded loving woman. I only weigh 5 pounds more than the day we met and I really thought he just had a low sex drive. It just wasn't and isn't for me. I must either adjust to his way or move on. We have been together almost 25 years. We are the parents of 10 children, some adopted. I have always been his best friend and he tells me that basically he is self-centered. What do you think? Seems to me like we should each care how the other feels but it just isn't so. I am very disillusioned and pessimistic about the future of our lives. I find myself getting pretty hard and blase'. Most of the time I just put a lid on it and cram it down inside me. You have my sympathy Lost, not much good advice though huh? Maybe if you had it you wouldn't want it either.<BR>Sorry, I'm a little whinney today. Fall, nostalgia weather on its way. <BR>Hi Sheba, how are you.<BR>Karen<P>------------------<BR>alleyoop<BR>

Doug!!!! I can't thank you enough!!!<P>You have expressed for me everything I have been trying to say but couldn't find the words for... its rare I get such enthusiasm from another person's thoughts but you just restored my faith in human beings <P>Heartpain... Having sex every day WOULD raise resentment... exactly the SAME amount of resentment as raised by a guy being affectionate every day.<P>And that IS the point... Regardless what the need is it shouldn't be considered of greater of lesser importance. All of the therapists force men to show affection or communication telling them the reward comes at the end but none of them tell the women to have sex and rewards come at the end.<P>Having said all of this I am not one to hold back my affection and in fact am very affectionate, and as for my partner being "forced" into having sex to placate me I have said before that her satisfaction is my sole priority... if she were to engage every day for a month and each and every day saw her acheive satisfaction regardless of if I did I would not have a resentful bone left in my body.<P>When we start relationships, even before marriage... the level of love, sex and affection we receive is indirectly our "pledge" to continue once the relationship is perminent... if I man stopped loving a woman after marriage we consider him bad for "deceiving" her like that... but when a woman stops sex after marriage we consider it her God given right... I think this attitude has to really change.<P>As for my partner acheiving orgasm... this may help. Before we met she had orgasms but I believe they were only clitoral and not very often. from the start of our sexual relationship she had her first vaginal orgasm (I think it shocked her not having to manually stimulate herself) and on several occasions had multiple orgasms for the first time. She has always been very open in telling me that I have shown her a side of her sexuality she didn't know existed and even to this day I find new things that pleasure her.<P>She is still sexually attracted to me and often "rubs" me and gets sexually aroused. Then for some reason she "stops" herself on purpose... pulls herself back even though I have not done a thing to "scare" her (ie try to take over or indicate it will go further). From reading everything here on Dr Harley I think she has a sexual aversion... we talked about it and she agreed that it might be so but even though she knows what do to to clear it (ie she has Harley's notes on this) she doesn't seem interested to try.<P>Doug... thank you, I can only hope more women read this and come to understand that sex isn't a dirty word providing it comes from a loving and caring heart and not a selfish one.

LostSoul:<P>Well, thanks! I'm glad I could help you articulate your thoughts, but it seems to me you were doing a pretty good job of that yourself! <P>The importance of your needs is not determined by your spouse, but by you. The same is true of your spouse's needs. You can't lessen their importance to your spouse by refusing to meet them. All you CAN do is build frustration, resentment, and finally, resignation to the idea that their important need(s) will NEVER be met. At least not by YOU.<P>Crack goes the foundation.....<P>PS: She rubs you to get you aroused, and then just stops? Geez, that's cruel. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Doug (edited September 12, 1999).]

"She is still sexually attracted to me and often "rubs" me and gets sexually aroused. Then for some reason she "stops" herself on purpose..."<P>I agree with Doug...pretty cruel, but probably unintentional; your W is being selfish in her inability to get past whatever the problem is. She is relating her own attractiveness/sexuality to being able to arouse you, then she can't get past her fears that trigger as a result. IMHO, I don't think you're going to be able to solve the riddle on your own. If you continue to cater to her needs, which as you say, is also a big part of your desire to please, you only continue the cycle. <P>By hook or crook, try sex therapy AND counseling. <P>I've replied to your other thread, but this is the urgent problem here. Introducing non-monogomous ideas where healing is required first will only exascerbate. I understand your wife has said, in words, that she is willing for you to find sex elsewhere. But the mind is a very intricate thing; I guarantee she would not be happy if you did indeed have an affair. And yes, I understand that is NOT what you're asking. You wonder if the introduction of someone else mutually agreeable into your world might assist. My two cents--NO. Not with your W's present problems. Fix that first, THEN see what you two may decide as a couple.<P>------------------<BR>Laura<P>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen<BR>

Actually... believe it or not I do not see her rubbing me as being cruel at all.<P>If it was cruel then it would mean I "expected" something more to happen, which means I would be the kind of person that thinks all sexual intimacy must lead to sex. I am not that kind of person and so she is more than welcome to take it to whatever extend she would like.<P>What upsets me though is that out of 10-20 of such encounters it would be nice to have at least a couple of them progress passed this point.. not necessarily to intercourse but at least to some point passed here.<P>Unfortunately it seems any form of therapy be it sexual or relationship isn't possible and something she is quite adamant about avoiding... I can only put this down a fear that it would highlight something she is doing wrong and that is something she doesn't want to face.<P>As for the non-monogomy from my other posts, it is something that has been with us since we first met and we have both always been open about it. She believes she is bisexual. Both of us have cheated on previous relationships and so we both know and understand the affects it has and so we made an agreement in the beginning that if ever either of us wanted to be with someone else we would instead include it in our relationship to avoid the pain that cheating causes.<P>I guess it may be related in some ways and perhaps some of her reluctance stems from her unsurity about herself but I dont think it is the biggest problem.

The only answer I can think of to this problem is, "Love your wife." I am a wife, and I know that there have been times when I was in no shape to have sex, for whatever reasons. <P>A woman is different from a man - for sex to happen, it has to be right emotionally, or forget it. Luckily, this has not gone on for very long ever for me, and my husband has been understanding.<P>And I think that's the point. I think you need to be understanding and just live without sex for awhile. It won't kill you, for goodness sake.<P>Quit thinking about "poor you" having to go without sex, and focus on your wife. When I am not in the mood for sex, my husband just loves to give me backrubs....and he is very nice about me saying "no" to sex when I don't feel like it.<P>This only makes me love him more and actually we often end up having sex, even when I had originally said "no."<P>I'll tell you a secret - an unselfish man is an extremely huge turn-on for me, and I bet for a lot of women. A man who can say, "that's okay honey, don't worry about it, let me rub your back," (and MEAN it - he really is okay with that) makes me feel so special and loved and understood - I often end up changing my mind about sex.<P>So, that's my advice. Be unselfish and loving, and I'll bet you'll get that love back, maybe not right away, but soon.<P>

The other thing is that BECAUSE my husband is so nice and un-demanding about sex, it makes me want to be more generous, too.<P>So, sometimes, even if I am not really in the mood, I'll say, "oh, okay" and we'll have sex anyway. Sometimes I get in the mood in the process and sometimes it's just quiet, "married" sex - no fireworks but nice.<P>If you can bring yourself to be generous - I mean really in your heart - and show it to your wife.....it may make her want to do the same. <P>

Writer...<P>You didn't really read any of the replies here did you?<P>The reason I say this is that everything you said is so far removed from this situation I wonder if you actually replied to the right post in the first place.<P>Have a read of what has been said before... I know it may be long but it is all explained in here.<P>I am the most understand, selfless, giving and supportive guy there is... and this hasn't been a short while it has been a LONG while the whole time with me giving back rubs and everything else I can... I have given her as much love as 5 people could give during this time and nothing has changed.<P>One other thing you might want to find in the replies... especially from "Doug" is that it is extremely unfair of you to say I should just "do without sex" for a while... it would be like me saying you should do without love or affection from your husband for a while... you cannot say sex is less important "TO ME"... (remember... its MY need and therefor matters TO ME) simply because it is less important TO YOU.<P>People with views like you have stated here are the reason why there is so much conflict over sex... guys are told to go without, stop being so dirty or shallow and at the same time told to mechanically be affectionate to their wives continuously... when a guy withholds affection he is considered very bad and the "reason" for why there are problems but the moment a woman withholds sex it is always for a good reason and something we should respect.<P>Its a double standard that is very distasteful.<P>Please read before making comments like these...

I read some of the replies before posting, but no, I didn't really have time to read them all. Who could? I also did not care to repond to every previous point, but that doesn't mean that I didn't read them.<P>If you are really such a wonderful, understanding, and giving guy as you say - and I don't doubt you on that - and your wife is unresponsive to that, then I guess you have a big problem and I'm sorry for you, truly.<P>I don't mean to say that your need for sex is not important. It's a normal need that we all have, maybe men more than women in some cases. I can accept that. <P>It is really my own husband who has made me feel that it is "no big deal" to "do without" sometimes....I used to feel pretty guilty about saying no, but he told me to "relax and forget about it." So if I'm cavalier about it, blame him!<P>I realize that my dry spells - which haven't ever been more than a few weeks - are a different story than months and months of deprivation - I know that would be difficult.<P>I was just sharing what has worked for me and my husband. And I was trying to make the point that my husband's willingness to be understanding and generous to me has in fact helped our relationship and sex life.<P>If you have been similarly wonderful and not had a good result, then it's too bad - and I mean that sincerely.<P>I'm not saying that just being loving and understanding works in every situation. I know that relationships are complicated and each one is different. <P>What I said may seem overly simple to you - and as I said, I really don't have the time/energy to respond to every post and all the ins and outs of your marital troubles - <P>But also, I think that a lot of things in life are really pretty simple. <P>If we take care of our own needs - and that's a big if - and are kind and generous to those we love, and if we have a little luck, things usually work out okay. Not perfect, but okay. <P>I don't believe that it is okay for either a husband OR a wife to withhold affection from each other, by the way. But I don't consider affection to be the same thing as sex, necessarily.<P>Affection is caring, which can be shown in many, many ways. Sex is a physical act and only one way of showing affection.<P>Sex has to be something that both people want at the time or that one wants and the other is willing to give. <P>You seem to imply that you feel you have a RIGHT to have sex - not sure if I got that right, but that was the impression I got. If so, I do disagree with you on that.<P>I don't think anyone has a RIGHT to have sex - even if they're married. If she was just your girlfriend, not your wife, would you feel that she OWED you sex? Why should it be different with a wife? <P>It still has be given freely. If it's an obligation, it's meaningless as a gift - at least that's my opinion. I might be wrong that that's how you feel - it was just the impression I got from your post and something to consider.<P>I'm not saying that your wife is right to avoid dealing with your marital problems. I think it sounds like you probably need professional help - that comes under the category of taking care of your own needs. <P>If your wife is not willing to get help together, then you could go yourself - (if you already are and I missed that in a previous post, don't get offended).<P>YOU are responsible for your own happiness and for caring for the woman you married as well as you can. <P>As to things being fair or unfair, what I always tell my kids is, "life is not fair," because it's not. <P>But, you have free will and many choices. I see your choices as these: <P>You can stay married, live without sex, and remain unfulfilled.<P>You can stay married, stay faithful, and get professional help, together or alone, and hope that sex will return to your lives.<P>You can separate, get help, and hope for a reconciliation and renewal.<P>You can get divorced.<P>You can cheat, with or without your wife's knowledge or permission.<P>In my mind, any of these options are OK, except the last. I'm totally against infidelity, although I realize that people are not perfect and it happens. I even realize that it could happen to me, though it hasn't, luckily.<P>You cannot control what your wife does and you cannot WILL her to have sex with you. So, focus on what you CAN do, make a choice, and take an action. If that doesn't work, try another action.<P><BR>(On a slightly more argumentative note - I'm sorry you're having trouble in your life, but I don't particularly appreciate you giving me a hard time for posting here. I was giving you an honest reply to your post. I don't think that there's any obligation to read every post or reply to every point that's made before posting oneself. I have as much right to post here as anyone else, as long as I'm not attacking anyone, which I was not. I don't mind at all if you disagree with my posts, but I have the right to post here as much as anyone else.)<P>

For the record, I don't think it's terrible if a guy "withholds affection." It's exactly the same as with a woman and sex - it should be given willingly, of course!! <P>And I don't think you're shallow for wanting lots of sex - sex is a great thing and good for a marriage, I think. So, I hope you get yours going again!<P>And I don't think it's bad if a guy wants sex and says that he wants it (even gets down and begs for it.....just kidding) He just shouldn't EXPECT it or feel it is something his wife OWES him, if you get the difference.<P>Good luck.

Writer...<P>First I want to appologise <P>I am finding it really difficult to deal with this at the moment and unfortunately I tend to come down pretty hard when I think someone has said something unfairly (one of the problems in my relationship).<P>So for that I am sorry, you are right in what you have said and I did come across attackingly. Funny thing is I seem to do this over and over again and rarely learn from it... I am wondering if I have not had a big enough "wake up" call to actually allow my subconscious to realise how bad it truely is... something for me to think about.<P>I think the first thing I do want to say though is you have correctly got the impression that I feel I deserve sex.. to the exact same degree that anyone in a relationship feels they deserve affection.<P>The thing I think that did not come across so well to you is what my definition of sex is... you see to me it isn't intercourse... its not even acts of a sexual nature designed for sexual pleasure.<P>For me sex encompasses everything from physical contact, close intimacy, sharing and exploring, touching of skin on skin and of course as well as all that sexual contact and sexual fulfillment and pleasure.<P>I am one of those "wierd" people who gets more enjoyment from GIVING pleasure than I do from receiving it... and so part of me saying I "DEMAND" sex is saying that I demand to be able to pleasure the person I love... to give them feelings of intimacy and fulfillment.<P>When people start their relationships they make a silent agreement at some point. When it becomes something serious, be that girlfriend or marriage you have both agreed that the "boundaries" of what you have there and then although not strictly how it will end up... but more or less are the "conditions" under which you accepted each other.<P>When you married your husband, the levels of affection, love and communication he gave you were what you instinctively understood as the level of those things. Now while there are always times things are up and down, missing or in abundance... more or less they should revolve around those levels. If you married someone who is NOT affectionate by nature then you accepted that when you married them so there can be no real complaints <P>When our relationship started of everything sex was something established in this same very way... like all things sex between us (remember its my definition of sex) has been up and down, less at some times and more in others... but for the last 8-12 months it has been severely shortened and even intimate affection as well.<P>If there were valid reasons for this and I could honestly see her "trying" to resolve them I would not have a problem and would have the strength to as you say "go without" for as long as it takes... but I do NOT see her trying to resolve them, she will not seek therapy and I have no indication it even matters to her.<P>So in that respect she has betrayed our relationship, she has taken something away from us without so much as talking to me about it.<P>I agree completely its her body and I would never, EVERY ask her to give me something she doesn't want (any person who would do that be it sex OR affection is not being respectful) that it is missing does not mean I should just "deal" with it.<P>You have given me the impression that for you sex does not have as much an affect in your life and it has shown through that you are finding it difficult talking to someone who does have it as one of their top 5 emotional needs... I think that is why I have been trying to relate it back to affection.. because I get the feeling affection is one of our top 5... I am hoping in this way you will replace the word "sex" with "affection" every time you see it so you can understand where I am coming from.<P>I guess the bottom line is I want to know where I stand, I want to know if it is getting better or getting worse... if it is something she wants to fix or not so I have the choice of deciding if I should go on.<P>I at least DESERVE that much.

writer:<P>I'm not trying to be antagonistic, really. But I also wondered about your first post.<P>Do you see the double standard here? It is so easy to trivialize a spouse's need for sexual fulfillment, if you are not in the mood. Do you realize how hollow it sounds to be told to "live without sex for awhile. ...It won't kill you."? How would you feel if told to to "Live without affection/communication for awhile. It won't kill you."?<P>No, it won't kill you. But little by little, it WILL kill the emotional bond that is marriage.<P>

Hi, guys.<P>Hey, I totally agree that affection and sex are very important for a good marriage. I was just trying to give some insight on HOW my husband and I sometimes GET there, which is by him being patient and undemanding when I am "not in the mood." That's all I was trying to say.<P>I do think there's a world of difference between our situation (where I might not be in the mood at all times, but in general we are very affectionate and have sex often enough to keep us both happy).....and a situation where one partner has truly stopped being affectionate. That spells real trouble and if it happened to me, I would run to the nearest good counselor I could find - whether my spouse would go or not - to try to sort it out.<P>I do not particularly agree with equating affection and sex. They are related but not the same. So, I don't really see that it's a double standard to say that you should be able to live without sex for awhile. Plenty of people have to live without sex for awhile - for medical reasons, they don't have a partner at the time, or whatever. That doesn't mean they cannot find affection in their relationships. <P>Also, sometimes I DO have to live without affection. Not for long, but sometimes my husband is too tired to talk to me or just needs to retreat behind a good book. I respect that just as much as he respects my need to say no to sex occasionally. We give each other the space that we need. The important thing is that we are usually affectionate and that we do have a generally okay sex life (according to him and to me). <P>So, no I don't see a double standard.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>