my H the WS has said alot things to me and friends. He told me that the other woman is helping our marriage. What a laugh! He told friends that he would never cheat on the other woman because they have a soul connection. That he could cheat on me and still value our marriage. He tells me he wants to save the marriage. But then he tells people he is only there for the baby. What do you think? He told me that for once god sent him some one to help him. He told me once that I did not support him emoitionally and then turn it around and I did not support him at all. I was always there for him. When I had our baby, He came for two hours that day and I did not see him for the rest of the week. He would not even pick me up from the hospital. He said, that he was to tired to drive. I heard he was sitting at the bar with some ugly woman. I think he is one who is not supporting me. He also said he did not know if I wanted there. Please help me make sense of this.

You can't make sense out of nonsense.<P>My ex not only did not take me to the hospital when I was in labor with my first baby, he also did not take me and the baby home. He *had* to work both times, he said.<P>Bu!![censored].<P>See, I can still get mad at him, even after it's over. This kind of stuff just irks me.<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 26, 2001).]

Fog!!!Fog!!!Fog!!!<BR>Tell him to put his big boy pants on and start taking responsiblilty instead of making excuses!<BR>Have you started your plan A yet?...If not, you need to ASAP...it WILL help.<BR>Stay strong, and take care of yourself...your baby needs you.<BR>

I agree, your husband is in that "fog" where the affair blocks out and warps what is real. Read about Plan A. It makes sense.<BR>Your H. is obviously being very descriptive about the A to many of your friends. That actually has given you valuable, if conflicting, information. It sounds as though the issues you have run very deep, and are many years old.<BR>Stay strong, and remember that you DO deserve support, respect, honesty and love. <BR>Robyn<p>[This message has been edited by Robyn's Clues (edited April 27, 2001).]

I am the ws. I was present for all (4) of my kids births, and everyday in the hosp, despite a demanding job. However, at this point in my life, and being in the withdrawal stage of marriage (and kids raised), I made friends (innocently) with a married woman (in a similar marriage), we became EA after some time, and here I am, asking my wife for a divorce. Not to be with the ow, who is not leaveing (but is now even more distraught over what she feels is a emotionally hopeless marriage), but because the affair refocused me on how empty our marriage was and why should we live like that. My wife is focused on the affair (and my guilt, and essentially refuses to deal with the previous 23 years, and whether we should even be married. Needless to say, right or wrong, the additional emotional pushing away is not making me feel like the marriage is worth saving, however it is understandable. I am not really focused on who is at fault for the 23 years, and we tried frequently to fix it, to no avail. What I say to her is that I think I am unable to make her happy (and folks I don't think happy is a 4-letter word), I will support her financially forever (she was a sahm), be whatever support she wants me to be (and I can see us be good friends, maybe), I just don't think we make good life partners. Fact is, I don't know why she loves me, all I do is take care of her, we are not friends, have never been, and just irritate each other if we get into emotions at all. I think mostly she is just use to me, and scared of being alone, not good reasons to be intimate partners IMO. The ow did not help our marriage in her mind, I think she did, it got me out of my funk, and alive again. It puzzles, actually even annoys me some (but then again it is a MB site, so I do understand), that the focus seems to be on "saving" marriages, whether the people want to be in them or not. I don't hate, or dislike my wife, I just don't want to spend another 30 years of this, or 30 years of "working" hard just be tolerable. I will neve bond with her, I know that, why is the assumption all ws are just depraved moral losers? Ok, the affair was wrong, and I will never allow myself to get to know a married woman that well again, but I am not a bad person, or an unethical person. It may be fog, but I do think we developed a love for each other that would have happened just the same if single (and that would then be ok, same love, just different circumstances), we are not users, or uncommitted people, we are just people in unhappy marriages who have tried for decades and gave up.

Dear Mon, <P>I may be going out on a limb on this one but I sense that you have been hurt and H is not meeting your needs or even acknowledging them. At this point he appears to be deliberating hurting you by his statements and actions. Conflicting they are but also very hurtful. <P>Now based on the above synopsis, which do you need to do. Plan A for your H or plan B to protect yourself? Please review what each is design to do and find what is the best plan for you. I am not saying to be strictly either way, but you need to look at what your needs and abilities are. <P>There are many other there on this site who are more qualified than I about the proper view and use of each of those plans. Also, there is the information in suriving an affair book and writeups on this site. Please review them. <P>Some of what you have mentioned is what I went through. I did not plan A or B exactly, but I did learn what my needs really were vs what I thought they were. This then helped me know what steps to take. Also if you can plan a session or 2 with the Harley's it may be helpful. Keeping your santity during these turbulent times is hard. The path ahead of you has been well worn. You can make it. Don't let his confusion suck you into the fog. <P>Rely on the tools you have available to you. You are not alone in your quest for a better family life. <P>Take Care,<BR>L.<P><BR>

sadnlonely:<BR>Are you my husband? What you wrote just broke my heart. You sound like him except we like each other and always have. We had communication problems (I did he did't) but I never thought he would want to live without me. Empty marriage huh? I wonder what you did along the way to make it fulfilling. It's not too late no matter what you think. I am not judging you. I am on the other side and it's hard to imagine giving up without a long hard fight. I'm in my marriage for the long haul. I will do everything I can to remain until his fog lifts. I have asked him if this would be happening without the OW. The answer never comes. I want her out of the equation so we can see if there is any left worth salvaging. Good luck to you sadnlonely. I truly hope that is not how you end up.<BR>Exxon

Exxon , What a great question..Would this be happening without the OW?<BR>The M was OK enough for my H before the OW...not great and not horrible,just in one of those valleys (28 yr M)I was not a perfect wife nor was he a perfect husband. BUT,bottom line, I COULD have had an affair and never did...certainly didn't lack opportunity. He DID have one because she was feeding his ego(who the he$$ was feeding mine!) and because she WOULD.<BR>But you know what...we would have come out of the valley no better than we went in..he would have gone into another funk and blamed me again...At least NOW he knows what he has. My feeling is that if our M is SO worth saving now, WHY did he have to destroy US to see it? He didn't want to tell me what I was doing wrong because he didn't want to deal with it or to hurt me...The A was "easier". And he didn;t want to see that it was at least 50% HIM,as well.<BR> <BR>The problems in our M did NOT go away,Still here BUT now he is forced to DEAL with it. Because he now knows what he wants. Sure wish he could have found a way without all this other garbage he let into our life.

Exxon......That is a tough question. One I have thought alot about, my wife has accused about, and the ow feels immensely guilty about. Stupid and self-serving as it may sound, me and the ow really did start out as innocent friends, and actually tried to help each other with our marriages at first, as good friends do. But in the helping we became conflicted and realized we had strong feelings for each other, which led to contemplations about whether we were actually falling in love with each other. We tried all sorts of things to place boundaries on our friendship, each of which fell in due time to the desires of the heart. Bringing us finally to this place, in love, but married to other people (who we are not in love with), and both of us facing the unthinkable, the collapse of our own moral/ethical codes. For 20+ years we each had survived in barren marriages by obedience to duty, it turned out not to be enough, the heart will not be denied. Perhaps we are just dirty rotten sinners, tempted by satan in a perfect ambush...or maybe God has answered our marital prayers in one of His mysterious ways...we don't know. But both of us have tried very hard in our marriages, for many years. I had already contemplated divorce for last few years, she had not even done that, just figured her lot in life was to have an empty marriage, but had made a full life with family and friends, made her husband meals etc., and sexual access whenever he wanted. Mostly staying out of his way. Neither of our spouses are bad people, they are just unwilling/unable to meet our EN, but don't mind us meeting theirs. As the affair progressed, and we started changing, our spouses noticed, but only cause we were less emotionally compliant for them. So to answer your question, No this would not be happening if I had not met the ow, not yet anyways, and probably not with the resolve I have now to escape the emotional prison I inhabit. I now know what it is like to be loved, and to be able to love someone rightly. Some call that a fog, and a fantasy, it is neither, it is real, and IMO how people should live in a marriage. The ow is not available, cannot bring herself to hurt her husband (a problem most of us empaths have, we feel responsible for others feelings, no matter they have responsibility too), so has exerted no influence on me to leave, is totally my choice. In fact she is my wifes best advocate, although my wife would never believe that. It is unclear whether I can muster the moral courage to end this toxic marriage, but end it must. Whether I can have a new marriage with my wife is what I am trying to focus on (since she asked for a chance), but so far is not very appealing (as a marriage, not cause I am some great guy). Mostly I just think she is scared, and I am better than nothing. My gut feeling is that we are so messed up only a divorce can clear the air. Then as some folks do, if we really do have any truelove we will choose each other and remarry, in a true choice.<P>Wounded...your situation sounds a little different. Our entire marriage was one big valley. Nor am I leaveing for the ow, I am leaveing cause what we have is no good for either of us, and I guess I am the only one with the guts to do it. The easier solution would be to stay, always have the threat that I might "leave" to keep my wife in line. Not deliberately, but just cause that is my history now. I don't want her to do anything out of fear, I do not want a marriage based on fear. If she was gonna change, and if that would have made any difference, should have been long ago. The affair is not why I am leaveing exactly, it is just the precipitating event that got me out of my apathy. As you noted, the marital problems existed long before the affair, as did my desire for divorce.

sad_n_lonely...Yes, or situations are different because there was always love between my H and I. The "valleys" were not constant in the years before the A began. There were lots of peaks, us planning our 30 anniversary trip,cards and gifts between us,with lovely words to me (You are my Life). He got himse;f in a funk and needed to blame someone and it couldn't be him. We had more years of goodness and even greatness than bad. And bottom line, he loves me and always did. Couldn't deny that, even to her.<BR>I think if I had confronted him during the EA,before the PA began, we may be divorced by now. He also felt we were hopeless and I would never change. Well, truth be told, he needed to change too. And stop wondering if we are supposed to be together...we ARE.<BR> <BR>Truth be told, I probably met more of his needs than he did of mine. Read:RESENTMENT here. I was able to give him what I thought he needed and was not able to give me what he knew I needed but I didn't whine, I got over it. He was angry for a long time...because of lots of stuff. I could have been but I chose to see it differently. He cost himself alot of joy over the years and lost more than I did, due to his holding his resentments.<P> Simplfying here certainly,as I said I am not perfect. But I was NEVER deliberate in hurting him(he was sometimes) and chose to see him in a golden light. Hard for him to live up to that and I guess he just stopped trying. I guess we both did,.<P>But we are now and it's better than I would have ever thought. The EA is MUCH more dangerous than the PA. The PA was just WRONG for him...but he was able to justify the EA, wasn't doing anything wrong...just good friends...and he never intended for it to go as it went. Got caught up in these "innocent" emotions. I think if he had realized sooner that he WAS having an affair and not some "love" thing, it wouldn't have happened. But the "love" thing didn't hold up to the light of day for him. And we do.<P> I think you will do what's right for you. Maybe you should look at yourself a little closer, as my H did. Certainly not everyone who is married should be...but please stop and search and really be sure. I know you feel you are but my H was too. And we are close to wonderful now. Never thought I could do this, accept an A, but I'm doing and I'm glad. Because NOW he's sure<BR>

Sad an lonely,<P>Did you ever talk to you wife about you marital problems? Why if you were so unhappy just get a divorce?<BR>Maybe, If you spent the time talking to your wife you might see things differently. My husband went out drinking every night until wee hours in the morning and expected me to be up to have sex with him. Anyone who has had sex with someone very drunk knows it not pleasant. He always criticize me about everything. I was one who should of had the affair. I had my opportunity but passed. So he goes an d has an affair. I am sorry if I sound angry. Things have turned around so much. He tells that I one who dose not no if I want him or not. I have been through so much and there is better out there.

yes mon, we talked extensively (and unproductively), had extensive counselling (until my wife quit, saying I wouldn't change), and I am getting a divorce, one just doesn't wake up one day and say oh, I am miserable, guess I will file for divorce. I am a committed type person, I was willing to try for years, decades, and I did. I am just worn out finally, and don't see any point in trying further. Along the way one has to face themselves and figure out why they got married in first place, what love is, what bonding is, and so forth. This does not just happen all at once, it is a process. Your husband sounds awful, why choose him? I wouldn't. Part of where I differ from many here is in why people love, I see a lot of dependencty signs, or denial issues, IMO people marry wrong all the time and should grow, either fixing the marriages, or amicably leaveing and doing a better job with someone they fit better. Hanging on to a marriage just cause it exists is IMO the worst possible reason to be married. Unfortuneately, in the vast majority of cases children are involved, this seriously messes up the whole issue. Then when kids are raised we move on to gee you have been married so long how can you give it up. We do the right thing for the kids and then are guilted for having a history, this makes me crazy.