Hi:<P>Currently, I am in plan b, going on about 2 months of it. I failed miserably at plan a, but can't go back there. There has been absolutely no contact. I don't guess I was really meeting any emotional needs, huh? How long before my lovebank is empty? How long before I move on?

<B>Living with memories</B>...<P>What is the purpose of your Plan B?...<P>If it is to save your marriage...<BR>...that may never happen... (I among many have ended their marriages in divorce)!<P>If it is to make you a better person...<BR>Focus on you...<BR>Learn to live with the love of your spouse...<BR>Find out what direction in life... you really should be heading in...<P>...it will take some time...<BR>...it could be a couple of months...<BR>...but more like 18 to 24 or even 36 months!<P>Do check out my posts...<A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000177.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 101 (2nd ed.)</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum30/HTML/000413.html" TARGET=_blank>Plan B - 201</A>.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

Thank you for responding. I really can't go into my reasons for plan b, but it's not fully my choice OR his. I think I need to divorce him. I don't know how I can go on with all the fake reconciliation attempts. He continues to hurt me each time I allow him back into my life. Not to mention the fact that I will be KILLED by any and every person who loves me if I even entertain the thought. They really wouldn't, but when is enough enough? Each time I try to move on, he gets scared and wants back in and then what does he do? Hurt me and the boys AGAIN. It's like once he realizes that he still "has me" and he can back to OW.

There are times when the divorce is unavoidable...<P>My case, I feel, was one such case.<BR>My xW was threatening to take our kids from me...<BR>...move over and hour and half drives away...<BR>...keep me from moving within 12 miles of her<BR>...(later I find out she wants to change their religion... to match the OM's)...<P>I needed to protect myself and my kids!<BR>...I had not just a right but a moral obligation...<BR>...to my kids.<P>That's not to say I didn't fight the divorce...<BR>...but in the end... (since no matter what I wanted)... <BR>...a divorce (my xW was filing first)... can be pushed on anyone!<P>If you can't get a commitment (real commitment)... from your H on "no contact"... "counseling"... "repentance"... or whatever else...<BR>...then you have made the choice that makes sense to you...<P>Let time lead you to your decisions...<BR>...not the influence of friends(?) or family(?)...<BR>...better yet... let your faith... lead you to your decision!<P>...but <B>it will take time</B> regardless.<P>Prayers.<P> <P>Jim

Hi Livingwithmemories:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Each time I try to move on, he gets scared and wants back in and then what does he do? Hurt me and the boys AGAIN. It's like once he realizes that he still "has me" and he can back to OW.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, it's called "having your cake and eating it too" and lots of WS do it. Mine too...if he sees that I might be distancing myself from him then he will make concerted efforts to bring me back into the game. Sometimes I think he enjoys the power...and I've heard it expressed that way in several books. It's as if they have been powerless in their prior relationships and suddenly they have the power...someone is fighting over them. they are the center of attention...must be real heady...but it hurts like H***.<BR>You are doing the only thing that really has any effect on them...taking away their power to hurt you any more...taking yourself out of the game. Let him play the game with OW once you are gone from the picture...it won't be as much fun.<P>But as Jim says Plan B is really not about him...or about winning him back...it's about reaching a point where you feel that your love for him is dying and need to protect that love...while preparing yourself for the eventuality that he may never come back...and you may have to move on. In a perfect Plan B the WS sees what he is giving up...that you really are prepared to move on...and comes back to the marriage...or...the love you have finally dies and you can move on without regret...but with new skills that will help your do better in your next relationship.<P>Two months is really not that long...I think Lora when 6 months with no contact...but he came back...or he's trying to come back. But take my advise and be strong in your commitment to Plan B because weakness will just keep this matter going on and on if you allow him to weaken your resolve.<P>Hang in there...all's not lost...even a divorce doesn't end things.<P>Faye

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I know that for my sanity and my kids, I need to be away from him now. I've grown so bitter and filled with hate at who he is and what he has done and for the OW. Maybe I just don't want to lose to the OW? Maybe I love the idea of an intact family more than I actually love him. I certainly don't love the person he is now - selfish, egotistical, no morals, no role model. <P>On the other hand, I do still hold that small hope that one day (not any time soon, I now know) he will wake up and realize it is me he loves. <P>In the meantime, I want to get over that hope because I think it prevents me from moving on and leaves me weak to him when and if we have contact again. Others have told me he's playing a game with me too - how can these WS turn so evil? Does it sound to ya'll like my lovebank is close to empty?<P>I know that two months isn't long for no contact. But it is by far the longest so far. Thanks for you help!

Living with Memories,<P>From my understanding, Plan B has two purposes. One is to give you the respite you need from the intensity of dealing with the affair. It is very hard to do at first, but most people end up saying it doesn't take that long before they also feel a sense of relief. It will initially protect the love you have for the WS. But, over time (and that time is different for differnet people), it will allow you to lose the love for the WS, becuase they are no longer making deposits into your lovebank. "absence makes the heart grow fonder" - true in the short term. and "Out of sight, out of mind", same type principle for the long haul.<P>The other thing Plan B does, is it forces the WS to have all his/her needs met by the OP. The reality of the affair form the Harley's perspective, is that the WS is fence-sitting because both the S and the OP are eachmeeting some of the WS' needs. Plan B forces the WS to get all of his/her needs met by the OP. If the OP can do it, the WS is probably not going to come back to the marriage. If the OP can not meet all of the WS' needs, this may be the reality check the WS needs to go back and give the marriage another chance. It can bring reality to the affair situation...you know, "All that glitters is not gold".<P>You will love the love for your H when you lose it, and no sooner. The timeframes are individual. It just happens. For me, it was like this....virtually one day I woke up and I felt super peaceful. I knewin my heart that no matter what, I was going to be OK and happy and thrive, again. A few days later, I realized the love for my ex was gone. It just sorta "happens".<P>Please know that although alot of us are "moving on" with our lives, we are all still dealing with the after effects of the affair. I can say with assurance that I no longer love my ex. Yet, I have more to learn from all of this experience. I just want you to understand that moving on with your life, does not mean that you get to go forward Scot free. you still have to do the work - to process your situation, understand why it happened and what you can do to not repeat the pattern again.<P>I am sorry your H continues to hurt you and your kids. Plan B will definitely help. Really try to keep a true Plan B. I also encourage you to practice Plan A. Nobody ever died from being nice to another, even to a person who didn't deserve the kidnesses. I am presuming there are some sort of contacts due to the kids. Make them as nice as you can. In the long run, both you and your kids will benefit. The skills you learn here will never hurt you. You may need them again. <P>Hugs and best of luck, Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

LWM,<BR>Thanks for your kind words about me on your other thread. Wow, I'm honored that you think so highly of me.<P>I'm a Plan B failure myself, but our last separation was 5 months, the longest one. And when my H wanted back in the marriage, he also showed me he was different. I was like you, had "fallen for" the reconciliation so many times, I didn't know if I would ever recognize a true one.<P>The things he did (on his own, some of the things I'd asked for before, but he wasn't willing):<BR>1. began going to our cousnelor alone<BR>2. went on his anti-depressants--he'd been diagnosed clinically depressed more than a year before.<BR>3. went to a men's bible study, one of the guys there became his "accountability" person. He was also accountable to me, we still talked ususally once a day, and he'd tell me what he had been doing & his plans.<BR>4. He gave me passwords to email & voice mail<BR>5. He did Plan A.<P>And, he stuck with it for 4 months. Under some pretty harsh circumstances with me, as I detailed in your other thread. I do give him a lot of credit, he has been a full partner in this reconciliation, the other reconciliations were "tries" and he, I don't know, wasn't ready, or still in the fog or guilt-ridden. I think he benefitted from that time alone. <P>We both have bad days...but we really try to start fresh the next day.<P>Those changes gave me enough hope to try again, though trust has been very slow in coming back. But as he acts trustworthily, my possibility for trust has increased. And my lovebank refills, and now, almost a year later, I feel "in love" with him again. Kind of the reverse of what Roll Me Away is saying as her life has gone in the opposite direction.<P>Emotion does eventually follow action & choice.

Thanks for the advice! I am and will continue to be very successful at plan b - absolutely no contact and I want it that way - it's too painful to see or talk to him now. WS is supposedly on anti-depressants and going to a counselor. Personally, I think she (the counselor) is pro-divorce or pro-affair. Just from comments WS made when I still had contact with him.<P>As I said before, I must stay in plan b for reasons that are really out of my control. Still, it is a good thing for me. Even if I could see WS, there is no way I could plan a him. I'm just too bitter and angry and hurt. I mean really, how much is one supposed to take??? <P>Lor, again, I don't know how you did it. Did you think the other reconciliation attempts were for real at the time? Did he start divorce proceedings? I would just love to get inside WS's head. I'm pretty positive that he has not been at all truthful with me since dday which was well over a year ago. If he doesn't love me anymore and only wants to be with her, why didn't he just tell me that? Why would he think anything could hurt me worse than I already am? How can he just abandon me and the boys? Did the past twelve years mean nothing?<P>I just want to be over him. I need to be over him. I'm slowly driving myself crazy. I don't want to "do" life anymore.

LWM, My H left yesterday on a motorcycle ride and is back with OW after 2nd attempt at reconciliation. 1st lasted 1 day, this one 6 weeks, but I now discover, with continued contact. The last two weeks he's become distant, blaming, critical, and secretive, just like before he originally moved in with OW. <P>This is almost unbearably painful, as I'm sure you know. It's good to hear that others have been through this and come out the other side, whether through reconciliation or divorce. For the first time, divorce seems like a possibility that would at least end this particular misery. <P>He came home after a fairly short, about a month, Plan B. He really seems to want to have his cake and eat it too. Now that he knows I'll take him back, I guess he had to make sure the OW would too.

LetSTry:<P>I'm so sorry for you. This just seems to go on and on. Because I am the "winner" at the number of times I have taken WS back, I would like to offer some advice. Please know that by "winner," I really mean LOSER. <P>If I had it to do over again, my plan of action would be SO DIFFERENT. I never held WS accountable, he never had to know that he had lost me, he simply said that he wanted to come home, or he loved me, or he didn't love OP, or he had messed up and knew it now..... The next thing you know he was back home. We went thru a "honeymoon" stage of sorts, but as soon as he hit the withdrawal stage, he was gone again.<P>So my unsolicited advice to you is to stay in plan b longer. Make him prove to you that he wants you and the marriage BEFORE you allow him to come back home. Make him prove that he is thru with OW too. That is where I messed up. This past time I knew better, I knew that I should make him prove he meant it this time, but I just wanted my family back. So, he's gone again and again I pick up the pieces. And it sounds like your WS is very much like my WS, he wants who he is not with after awhile. Please guard your heart. <P>Sorry if any of this offends you. I would never want anyone EXCEPT WS and OW to go thru the misery I have been thru.

LWM, Thanks for the advice. I am definitely not offended. In the past I've done exactly what you describe, taken him back with just words on his part, not action, to show me he was through with OW. He hated Plan B, for obvious reasons since he wanted us both. I even sat and observed while OW asked him over and over to make a choice and he refused to do it, just said he loved us both, and I took him back a week later because I too just wanted my family back together. We went through the "honeymoon" phase, as you described, even went on a cruise, but he couldn't handle withdrawal, apparently started seeing her, started avoiding and blaming me, and now he's gone again.<P>Plan B was not as hard for me as Plan A. It really was/is too painful to see him when he was/is with OW. How many times have you been through this? I hate to think of going through this again. I've already lost all the weight I had put back on on the cruise. I can't sleep again and can't focus at work. I second your comment that I wouldn't wish this pain on anyone but WS and OW. Their withdrawal can't be worse than this!

Let's see, this past time was the 5th fake attempt. Looking back, I realize they were fake, he just got better at saying the right thing. The first time he only came back for the kids which I pretty quickly figured out. Then, because he wanted to do the right thing and so on.<P>He was clearly so deep in the fog, but I didn't know that then. He's also gotten very good at pretending to be out of the fog - generally only last a couple of weeks at most. I don't know what kind of hold OW has, but it's powerful. Wait, I take that back, she's stroking him, telling how wonderful he is and that he's making the right choice since he no longer loves me his wife.... I'm a little busier trying to raise two children than she is, so I guess I didn't have as much time for that.<P>I do believe that he has not had to work for anything throughout this ordeal. He's had me and OW at his beck and call. It's amazing that his love for me seems to magically reappear when he senses I am moving on. A counselor told me that until he feels that "tension" of losing me for a long time, he will keep bouncing back and forth. It makes sense. So, plan b time. <P>I think he has filed for divorce this time too - a first for him to actually take some initiative.... Guess he wants some closure to this so he can get on with his life, too bad he's destroyed three others in the process.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>e continues to hurt me each time I allow him back into my life. Not to mention the fact that I will be KILLED by any and every person who loves me if I even entertain the thought.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not to say you should attempt reconciliation again at this point, but which is more important, what your friends think or your marriage? They don’t have to live with the results of your marriage/divorce. YOU DO!<P>Simply thank them for their advice and tell them you need to do what is <B>right</B> for you.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

They want what is best for me and WS is not best for me now. They are tired of seeing me hurt and let's face it, I'm too close to the situation to be the least bit objective. They would support me 100% (and have many times) if I decided I wanted the marriage AND WS was doing what needed to be done.

<B>They are tired of seeing me hurt</B><BR>I imagine you’re tired of being hurt too. Think divorce will magically” make everything better?<P><B>I'm too close to the situation to be the least bit objective.</B><BR>But you are the one who’s situation it is. How can you be “too close” to your marriage? You can’t.<P><B>They would support me 100% (and have many times) if I decided I wanted the marriage</B><BR>They need to support you 100% in whatever you do, <B>including</B> trying to save your marriage regardless of your h.<P><B>AND WS was doing what needed to be done.</B><BR>Give it time. He will either come around and want to save the marriage or you will end up NOT loving him. A divorce would be much, much less of a trauma for you then.<P>I know it’s (Plan A/Plan B/affair/divorce) not easy by any means. But it is something which needs to be done in order for you to heal and understand everything which went on (the affair, your shortcomings, his shortcomings and how to deal with them in current & future relationships, romantic & otherwise.)<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Chris:<P>I don't think I clarified what I really meant. Most of that was anger and bitterness talking. <P>There is nothing more that I can do for my marriage EXCEPT spend the rest of my life waiting on him to come back to me. My self-esteem cannot take another go of these fake reconciliations, not to mention my heart and sanity. And I know that he will continue to have his cake and eat it too as long as I allow it. That is why I am in plan b. <P>As for the divorce, he is filing. While I don't want a divorce, I will not lay down and play dead. Personally, I think letting him walk all over me is one reason I am where I am right now, ALONE. I know that the divorce will not make the pain disappear. I do think it will provide closure to this whole mess and that is the first step in the healing process.<P>My comment about "being too close" to the situation meant that I didn't see some things he was doing and saying to hurt me until I stepped back and tried to look at it objectively. I also BELIEVED his words (not actions)over and over again about wanting to reconcile while those further from the situation would very wary.<P>My family AND his family do support me, they are tired of seeing him walk all over me. Their greatest hope is that we reconcile, but they think it needs to be down the road. Once he has returned from alienhood, the OW is gone, and I have healed some.

LWM,<BR>I read your words, and how I felt a year ago came back so clearly...it was so painful.<P>This might just be semantics, using different words for the same thing, but I don't look at our 6 failed reconciliations as "fake". For us the word "try" fits better. My H intended to try. He did try. But he didn't, wasn't able to, follow through those times because his actions and thoughts probably didn't change much. He wanted me in his life, loved me, but as a "friend" even as a "lover", the "mother of his children" but not as a "wife". <P>He also continued to want first the OW, but also his freedom. He wanted to "play" in bars, on singles softball, hang with his buddies. <P>And being home, the responsibilites, duties, commitments fell on him...plus as he continued to move out...his guilt increased, as he broke promises not only to me, but to our daughters, 10 & 12 when this started, now 13 & 15. Old enough to have their own sense of right and wrong, and to think dad was doing wrong.<P>My H never filed for divorce. I did. It took him 2 years, but he convinced me there was no hope. I too BELIEVED him each time he came home, until the last separation when I thought that there was nothing he could say that he hadn't already promised and broken, a few times. This last reconciliation came down to not words, but his actions, and months of them. I think I shook for the first 2 months he was home, since he still had his own house, I expected him to be back in it at any given night.<P>And, we're still dealing with my insecurity...I worry less about his fidelity than I do about his walking out. He's used it as a threat a couple times in our reconciliation (in situations that I was raking up some pretty horrible stuff to him as well)...and it takes days, weeks to feel better about each other if we don't deliberately set it aside. We know we have to have broken the death spiral (the separation/reconciliation/separation cycle as I think of it). And we can't get back in it. It takes a lot of effort on both our parts, because we both danced that dance. His part being I love you/can't live with you, mine being I love & miss you/I can't stand that you did this to me.<P>I would just encourage you to continue Plan B until your H either shows you he is ready to be a husband, or your lovebank tells you that you can move on. I truly believe I could have moved on...and perhaps that is a key ingredient to this reconciliation, it is based on the fact that we both know how life is without the other, and we have chosen to do everything we can to recover our marriage. It is a decision that at some point, takes 2. One spouse can keep the possibility of marital recovery intact, and that is what Plan A & B are about.

Oh! And don't worry about your friends, most people have enough troubles of their own that when yours are by the wayside, they don't hound you.<P>My counselor told me, "Lor, people's attitudehould not be 'I can't believe you took Guard back' they should think 'If those 2 can make it, there's hope for us.'"

Go ahead & let your anger & bitterness talk here. That’s what we are here for. To help you sort through what you are feeling. I know exactly what you are going through. I haven’t seen my wife in 2 years (married 19 years then.) I have 15 & 10 year old daughters. My wife has only spoken to my youngest one time in the last 6 months!<P><B>There is nothing more that I can do for my marriage EXCEPT spend the rest of my life waiting on him to come back to me</B><BR>No one is suggesting you wait the rest of your life. However, the time to move on is <B>generally</B> when you can do so without bitterness or hatred. This is what Plan B will accomplish. At the end you will not love him nor care for him either.<P><B>My self-esteem cannot take another go of these fake reconciliations,</B><BR><B>ANY</B> attempt at reconciliation should come with a few set rules. If he is not willing to agree to them BEFORE you get started, then don’t attempt reconciliation.<BR>A few examples;<BR>1-Absolutely no contact with OW.<BR>2-Counseling with someone who‘s goal is to save/repair the marriage (Steve & Jennifer Harley are good )<BR>3-Both of you, with the help of a counselor will construct & agree to a plan for reconciliation.<P>You should not “lay down & play dead.” You do need to look out for yourself in the divorce. However, you can try to nail him to the wall and the divorce will be very ugly. Personally, if you don’t want a divorce, then you don’t have to “go along.” Wait as long as you can before responding to anything he requests. Tell him you are reviewing” it and such.<BR>(Disclaimer - I am not a lawyer so please consult with one. Let your lawyer know you don’t want a divorce but you need to make sure you don’t get burned. He will know how to delay things properly)<P><B>Their greatest hope is that we reconcile, but they think it needs to be down the road. Once he has returned from alienhood, the OW is gone, and I have healed some.</B><BR>Welcome to Plan B! This is the second effect of Plan B. Hopefully the affair will end & he will see what has been going on with a clear head.<P>Remember, Plan B is to make sure you take care of yourself and NOT worry about your marriage. However, you do still need to remember you are married (ie, no dating & such.)<P>You are in Plan B for 2 months now. Did you send him the letter explaining what you are doing? Such as you still love him & you want the marriage but you are hurting too much to continue as you were? It’s essential so he doesn’t think you just gave up.<P>Hang on LWM. It’s a very difficult road to travel with lotsa bumps (okay, craters ), no light and not much fun. But the end result will be a much better you! <P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited May 01, 2001).]