You both have all my love. As do your wonderful children!<P>Now... please listen...<P>Tonight... not tomorrow... not later... not after the divorce!<P>Tonight!<P>Stand face to face...<BR>...and repeat... to each other...<P><B>"I make a covenant... of me... to you... today...<BR>...it is not a contract<BR>...it is not a promise<BR>...it is in my humility and frailty ...I give all of my earthly life to you.<P>I will do all I can... to no longer see the (or any) "other person".<P>The sun will not go down tonight... until I, with your help, write our "no contact" letters... to our OPs.<P>I will not let one more day pass before we both contact a counselor.<P>In Jesus' passion... "trusting in His mercy"...<BR>...I sacrifice all to you...<BR>...in the struggles to come... and to overcome!</B><P>I will pray, out loud, with you every night... for your forgiveness of all I have done... and what I have failed to do...<BR>...through "His mercy".<P>=============================================================<P>I don't know if <B><I>this</I></B> is what Steve/Jenn will ask you to do...<BR>...(I doubt it)...<P>...but from one who has gone the full length... of a success story...<BR>...resulting in a divorce and complete separation...<P>...I see it as a time for complete surrender.<P>==============================================================<P>My dear friends on MB...<BR>...many of you will disagree with me on this...<BR>...many who thought they knew how I reason things through...<BR>...I'm OK with that... (flames are OK)...<P>I know I spread the message of PTC... probably more than most...<BR>...and being aware... that even after a commitment... <BR>there will still be the need for much PTC!<P>Now is the time for surrender.<BR>...the rawness and tenderness of your emotions... are a time to open up...<BR>...there is now the point of convergence...<BR>...your paths are crossing... and it would be more than sad if it was the last time...<BR>...the only good meeting of the "horizontal" with the "vertical"... on the cross.<P> <P>Jim

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Paul & Amanda }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>Jim's right you know.......<P>love ya Jim........<P>no flames from me......I know that everything you say and do and post comes from a deep well of LOVE and that love stems from your extraordinary faith.....<P>Paul & Amanda. you can both garner strength from each other, and from Jim.....<P>and as Bob Dylan says: When you got nothin'...you got NOTHIN TO LOSE.<P><BR>Dylan<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

No reply yet, just know that I'm reading.

...anyone who knows you, Jim... knows that you ALWAYS speak from a place of love...<P>NO FLAMES HERE<P><B>Amanda and Paul</B>,<P>No matter which way this path takes you, make sure you have done EVERYTHING possible to save your marriage.<P>Best wishes as you continue to GROW, LEARN and GO FORWARD... whether that be together (which we all wish for you) or apart...<P>Compassion lives here...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

AMEN to that i totally agree with everyone and i am more<P>than willing to do this this is what i want forever, but<P>unfortunatly Paul is not willing to do this. ive tried<P>to convince him but he is not ready. i understand he is hurt<P>and he is only protecting himself. it does hurt knowing he <P>wont even try. i do think it would be easier for him to get <P>his thoughts together if he were single. then there would be<P>less arguements between us. (i question him about random things in his relaitionship) i am hurt too. i just want to understand. i am sorry .as of yesterday i stopped with the<BR>questions.also if he had nobody else to worry about god might be able to reach his broken heart and heal it an let him see that ive truly changed,but i have found that patience is very important in getting me through this thank you lord for the patience you have given me.thank you everyone here at MB for giving me hope that may be soon we can be a family again i also thank you for your prayers<BR>Once again i ask you to pray for US

Amanda,<P>Let me ask you a question. What is your plan for healing yourself? What is your plan for learning to make better decisions? What is your plan for your life?<P>You see wanting Paul to heal is a good thing, but he has gone out on the limb more than once for you. He accepted your child with OM, and many other things, yet you had another affair. Is there still contact with this latest OM?<BR>If so there is little chance of reconciliation.<P>Are you covering yourself in case the marriage does end in divorce? If you are there is little chance for reconciliation. If you are going to rebuild or restart your marriage to Paul I believe that several things must happen.<P>1. You must focus on yourself and figure out why you had these affairs.<P>2. You must focus on your children.<P>3. You must become a friend to Paul again.<P>These things will require sacrifice from you and may lead to nothing. Nothing in the sense that you may not be able to undo what has been done, but if you do these things, then you will become a person worthy of a second chance.<P>There is so much to say, but in reality we know little of what you think and feel right now. You say you want to save the marriage, but you don't indicate what you are doing, changing, and improving. Action is the key word Amanda. Consistency and follow through will be required.<P>So what do you need help in? We cannot make Paul want to remain married to you, but we can help you in dealing with yourself. This will occur via advice, telling you of our experiences, and just listening to you.<P>So it comes down to you. What do you want to work on first?<P>God Bless,<P>JL

jl<BR>i am in the process of some soul searching i have just recently given my heart to jesus i attend church every time the door is open that is very unlike the old me. i have recently quit smoking(something paul hated) i am being a better mother to our children.I am also trying to do as paul wishes. its hard but im trying.<BR>Please pray for me<P><BR>Amanda

Amanda:<P>Would you be willing to:<P>... never have contact with any of the OM's?<BR>... relocate to a new state?<BR>... be accountable for your whereabouts at any time of the day or night?<BR>... be willing to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, which states "never do <B>anything</B> without a mutually enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse?<BR>... be willing to follow the Four Rules for a Successful Marriage: Protection, Care, Honesty and Time.<BR>... be willing to be accountable for doing all this under the guidance of a marriage counselor.<P>You seem willing to change, and sincere in your desire. But I think that you also need to be <B>successful</B> this time around. I pray that you will be---and I hope that you will take the advice given to you by others. You need to bring this action that JL speaks of---the consistancy of learning and practicing new behaviors. I would like you to do this under the guidance of one of the Harley's; you situation is such that you really would benefit from professional marriage coaching.

K<BR>i have suggested to Paul that we move out of state to get "AWAY" from my mistakes as well as his and start over he is not willing,i have also suggested a counsler for us again he is not willing. i dont know if i can convince him of anything as long as the OW is still in the picture.i just dont know where to go from here. I do know i am in the process of finding myself a counsler. i think this will help me become the person that i am already trying to be.A happy one.if you have any suggestions please let me know. Prayers are in need.<P>Amanda

Amanda and Paul,<P>PLEASE, I urge you. Give your marriage another chance. A fair chance. A chance where you both surrender, learn from the past and let it go, give up ALL contacts with the negative input and concentrate, REALLY concentrate on rebuilding. <P>My H and I have been married over 30 years. Some of them have been wonderful. Some of them have been disasterous. I can't begin to tell you how many times I have given thought to throwing in the towel, as I'm sure he has also. For me it was mainly a passing thought due to seemingly unbearable pain. For him it was an active thought, as evidenced by his affair. We finally gave up. We surrendered and started from scratch, bringing with us the lessons we had learned from the past. <P>We have spent more than half our lives together. We have created two lives together. We are a part of one another, a result of one another, whether at times we wanted to admit that or not. That can not be denied. You have a history together that can not be understood or shared with anyone else. That belongs to you two alone. Please make the effort to revive the love that I know is there. <P>We have been reviving our marriage now for alittle over 3 years. Yes, it's hard. But it has been and continues to be so well worth it. Despite bad days here and there, I'm NOT sorry, ever. Would the pain be less if we had given up and tried with someone else? I don't think so and I also feel I would have an additional pain of having lost that other part of myself (my H) that I had grown so accustomed to for 30 years. <P>Please try to work through these problems. Give it all you've got and know that you gave it your ALL. I think you owe each other and your kids one more attempt with NO obstacles, no barriers,,complete surrender.

Nerlycrzy: I did that last time, it took more than I had evidently. I'm not sure I'm ready to do that again.

Hi Amanda,<P>One of the big mistakes from my past marriage included the "suggestions" I made without action.<P>Find a counselor, whether he goes or not.<P>Follow what K has said - be accountable, 100% to Paul, as in: "I'm going to the store, be gone an hour"... and continue to do this whether he asks or acknowledges it.<P>Don't worry about his "OW" right now. This is about YOU right now. I was where you are, in a way, and also where he is... confusing?... my ex cheated 3 times in 1987, then I cheated in 1999 (an exit affair) and then he cheated again two times out of his pain and anger, and damn if I couldn't get that last OW out of my mind. So, I kinda tried to Plan A (a miserable failure) but in the back of my mind, with that OW there, I just couldn't do it. But worrying about her was a <B>total waste of time and energy.</B><P>Work on YOU right now, and what it means to be a good, no a GREAT wife.<P>Pray about it.<P>Don't wait for Paul to begin the work. He can't do it right now. He's tired, and rightfully so. You ran him through the wringer emotionally... which I know you know... and now he's hurting you with his OW, which not everyone will understand, but I do.<P>Hope this helps!! <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

Amanda:<P>I would suggest that you counsel with the Harley's, through the MB phone counseling (888-639-1639). They will help you with the behaviors that you need to reconcile this marriage. And I'm sure that Paul would participate if you got involved---but regardless, you need to start immediately.<P>

Paul,<BR> <BR>Try it again. One more last ditch attempt. I know you're scared. I know your still hurt. I know you're afraid to lay yourself wide open ever again to that kind of hope and vulnerability. I was too. I told my H it would have been far more merciful to have killed me than to make me suffer this kind of pain daily. <P>Paul, I did it. I gave up my pride, set aside my convictions (don't EVER, ever cheat on me or I WILL,,,), cast aside my doubts and gave it my ALL. Paul, hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life (and believe me,,I'm old!! )Now,, I know you've done this before. Do it again. One last time. BOTH of you,,sever ALL contact with the OP. TRY!!! If it doesn't work with BOTH of you giving 100%, I swear to you, I'll never urge you to try again. I'll back off and say "Hmmm,,ok,,you gave it your best shot, exhausted all hope and it's over." But at this point, I don't think it is for you two. I think there are still deep feelings there that CAN be restored if you BOTH give it a 100% chance. <P>PLEASE,,think about it.

Nerylcrzy,<P>I'm betting that he is thinking about it. Have patience...

K,<BR>Patience?? You'd think I'd have learned that by now, huh. I'm loaded with virtues but that never has been one of them!! LOL OK,,OK,,I'll give him a few minutes to think,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,TIME'S UP!

Yeah, I knew that Paul was telling me to shut up on another thread---he got the point. He's just way too polite...<P>

D'OH! Happy faces mean shut up?? No wonder I get myself in trouble! <p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited May 03, 2001).]

Hi Amanda<P>One thing I learned at MB is that I cannot do anything about my spouse. I was only responsible for myself.<P>I guess what I am saying is you must accept that whether or not Paul loses the GF, you can still choose to try to save the marriage. It is hard, but recovery doesn't begin with an end in the relationship with OW or OM - it begins with a decision.<P>It is good that you have decided not to question Paul about things. Although you are 30 days from a final divorce, I would suggest that you live like you are 100% married.... Everything you do and how you speak should reflect that you are NEVER available to any OM ever ever ever.<P>Hang in there, we are pulling for you.<BR>TnT