This may be it, friends. As planned, I spoke to my wife after the baseball game last night and gave her the message from OM's W (not to be affectionate to OM around her kids). I should have known better. She immediately went on the defensive and advised me not to believe everything I hear. (Well, that part is well understood, coming from her.)<P>Me: Hey, I'm just the messenger.<BR>Her: I didn't get close to <OM>!!<BR>Me: I'm just passing along the message. And I assume you're not affectionate with <OM> around <son>? <BR>Her: WHAT DO YOU MEAN? Everytime <OM's W> gets involved there's trouble. You can't tell me what to do!!<BR>Me: I'm trying to protect <son>. Also, I'd appreciate it if you let me know when you go out of town in case we need you for some emergency.<BR>Her: I can be contacted! Just call my cell phone! It has voice mail that I check frequently!! (getting madder)<BR>Me: I frequently call you and leave messages that you never return.<BR>Her: I return all calls about <son>. Besides, I did tell you I was going out of town! Remember that <hospital business> I had to attend.<BR>Me: No. I'm not going to argue with you. I find it hard to believe you went on hospital business early Sunday morning. The point is, I think it just common courtesy to inform your family of your whereabouts.<BR>Her: bla, bla, bla, BLA, BLA, BLA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<BR>Me: Don't make a scene in front of <son>.<BR>Her: YOU'RE THE ONE WHO STARTED IT!!<BR>Me: I just passed on a message and made a request, that's all.<BR>Her: Well, stay out of my life.<BR>Me: I'm just trying to protect <son>.<BR>Her: FROM WHAT?<BR>Me: Your bad behavior, the lies, the deception, I can't believe anything you say.<BR>Her: YOU CAN BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT!! I'll not do anything to harm <son.><BR>Me: You already have with your affair.<BR>Her: I AM NOT HAVING AN AFFAIR!!!!!!!<BR>Me: OK, then what do you call it?<BR>Her: (mad silence)<BR>Me: What do you call it?<BR>Her: We're leaving. You're disgusting. Grow up!<P>It is impossible to have a civil conversation with that woman. Why did I try? Fortunately, <son> didn't hear the details, but he went home with her so I'm sure he got her explanation.<P>When I got home I called to speak to <son>. I apologized to him for seeing what he saw. I reassured him that I love him and that I love Mom. He said, "I know."<P>After talking to him, I asked to speak to W, surprisingly, she agreed. I told her that we have to do a better job with this crap. She agreed, but went on the defensive again, explaining I have no business with where she goes or who she's with. I agreed, except that anything involving <son> is my business.<P>Her: I don't ask you where you go!<BR>Me: You could, I have nothing to hide.<BR>Her: Neither do I!<BR>Me: Then why the big deal if you have nothing to hide?<BR>Her: OK, I'm not talking to you anymore except for things concerning <son>.<BR>Me: OK, then let me tell you this. I love you very much - more than you can possibly know. There is nothing I want more than to put our family back together. I will do anything to make that happen. I forgive you for any mistakes you may have made and I will not throw in your face these mistakes for the rest of your life. We can do it if we try. <Son> wants it <Deceased son> would want it, your family wants it - all you have to do is admit some things to yourself and we can get started.<BR>Her: (incredulous) Uh huh.<BR>Me: Do you understand?<BR>Her: (silence) I'll bring <son> over at 6:00, ready for school. Goodbye.<P>I'm at my wits end. I think she must be in some sort of severe denial syndrone such that she's convinced herself that she's in the right and I'm the nutty one. Not just normal affair stuff, but deeper denial connected to her unresolved grief for our son. For her to deny over and over again that she's not having an affair just boggles my mind. Even our son acknowledges it now.<P>I don't thnik there's any more I can do. Maybe a Plan B letter just to document it to her family. She is in some severe psychological state that will only continue to frustrate me and confuse our <son>. She is truly off the deep end. I'll try to catch her if she falls, but I think it's time to turn her over to God.<P>Thanks for all your help. I may not be back.<P>Dave (WAT)

Hey WAT. I don't have any advice to give you, but there are a few stories on this board that I follow because they affect me in a profound way and yours is one of them. I'm sorry this is happening to you and I'm sorry you think it's time for you to leave the board. I guess I'm just taking what might be my last chance to say you've got a lot of people rooting for you over here and we know you deserve much better than you're getting from your wife. I wish I could be wiser than I am and more useful than I am, but I'm only who I am, so just know we're thinking of you and we feel for you. I hope things get better.

Any possibility of proof? Like a private investigator? Is that an LB? Most likely but wouldn't you like to show her that you KNOW she's lying? She wouldn't be able to deny THAT.<P> Once the A sees the light of day, she will have to admit her wrong doing and maybe the whole thing will fall apart! Seems to be what happens.Once my H knew I was finding out and leaving my own denial to SEE what he was doing, he came home. Once I told him,in no uncertain terms, that my pride (bad thing) wouldn't let me wait for him while he decides between me and OW, he told the truth and asked to come home. And I was willing to let him go...was gonna file the next day...couldn't do the limbo walk any longer.It does happen sometimes...<BR> <BR>I hope you don't leave...we will all be concerned about you and your son. My heart goes out to you

Dave, your W is so deep in the fog it's unbelievable. I'm sorry you're going thru all this and I'm sorry for your son as well - your W should see to it that OM is not in his presence.<P>Although I would have disagreed with Wounded earlier, I believe that you DO need some hard evidence. I denied EVERYTHING until my H ultimately confronted me with proof (remember that tape?). <P>Wish I had some better advice for you. Will you settle for a {{{{{BIG HUG}}}}}}}}}?

WAT,<P>No advice. I just wanted to let you know that I think you handled the situation very admirably. As you probably know from my previous posts, my W still denies any A. They just have a friendship, but I have proof to the contrary. I think your W, like mine, is so deep in the fog that they actually believe the bulls*&t that they say.<P>Again, I think you did an excellent job.<P>S&C

Dave,<P>No offense, but as someone who has handled the "fog", I actually think that you handled it quite poorly. Lots of lovebusting. Disrespectful judgements all over the place.<P>If you really wanted to do a good (MB) job of this, you should have stopped your conversation after "Hey, I'm just the messenger"<P>The emergency contact issue was separate, and shouldn't have been lumped into this conversation.<P>If you're in Plan A, you must act like it. If you're in Plan B, this conversation would never happen. But you can't be in Plan LB---trying to open your wife's eyes up to her poor behavior is going to be the most unsuccessful project you'll ever embark on---and frustrating too, because everything you say is true. She's got to discover the truth with no help from you, if you truly "want more than to put our family back together".<P>I don't mean to beat on you. But that's exactly what Steve would say to you, and I have the stripes on my back to prove it...

Blech and more blech (kidding ) ... will wonders never cease?... I agree with <B>K</B> again... Can you believe it? <P>See Dave, that first line, about being the messenger... <cringe> set the tone <cringe>...<P>I'm gonna be disguisting and offer the kind of conversation that *should* have been:<P>Dave - Hey <W>, an odd thing happened.<BR>Her- What?<BR>Dave - Well, <OMW> approached me again.<BR>Her- Why? {and yeah, she's gonna be upset already}<BR>Dave - Well, she's asked me to ask you to stay away from her H - like the last time.<BR>Her- I'm not WITH HIM. How many times do I have to say it? <BR>Dave - Okay. I told her I'd pass the message along. Hey, is that a strike?<P>Again Dave, it's amazing what we learn if we hang around here enough. I did everything all backasswards with my ex. I did what you're doing (he denied the last affair up until the very, very end... and in FACT, *still* says she's "just a friend"... who he has sex with...why? We're divorced, not like he needs to convince me! But I digress... )<P>If you are still in Plan A, then you have to use Plan A behaviors. If not, then another tack has to be taken...<P>Where are you, in your head - RIGHT NOW? Can you continue in Plan A???<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited May 03, 2001).]

Dave,<P>Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you're in Plan A, you have to act like you're in Plan A. In your conversation, after giving her the initial message, you proceeded to give her disrespectful judgements and other LB's. This is obviously inconsistent with Plan A.<P>I really think you need to move into Plan B. <P>I am really hoping that your W wakes up one of these days (as does mine, Rick's, OOOO's, etc), but unitl then, you need some space from her, especially if you are LB'ing.<P>Just my attempt to help...<P>AGG

Dave, your last statement is probably the most important one in your entire post. Turn the situation over to God. He is the one who can and will change her heart.<P>Please try it. I can honestly say that when I did, there was a huge weight lifted off of my shoulders and I could start to see the differences. They were very slow and at times we were backsliding (and still do). It will make a difference in you, though, I promise. When I finally realized that there really wasn't anything that I in my own power could do, the only thing left was to let God take over. I am pretty sure that if I wouldn't have done that, we'd be divorced by now. <P>Believe me, it was the most humbling experience of my life. I have always been in control of everything and proved to everyone that we could do things our way and we would be successful. I couldn't do this one alone, though.....

I havent been around as long as the others,,, but reading everyones comments I too felt a bit uncomfortable when I read some of your replies to your W,,, she is deeeep in the fog and some of the comments probably pushed her further (trying to defend her actions and telling you she will return calls if it has to do with the son,, for example,,, she is saying that she is being responsible when it comes to him,,, this is of course her fog talk) Hang in there WAT and Plan A from what I have seen isnt the easiest thing,, and much harder when they are in denial..<BR>blessings<BR>C1

Yea, I knew it was turning into a big LB while it was still in progress. That's why I tried to describe it honestly so you guys would give me a much deserved blast. I have no excuse. Like Rick37 says, these things get started and you get sucked into a tornado.<P>Part of my problem could be impatience with the fog lifting. It's frustrating to read about it everyday here, not that I'm not happy for those who get to that stage, but my wife's fog may be of a particularly venomous variety. Whether it's narcotic love or suppressed guilt, yes, she's deep in it. And I think this is her defense mechanism to avoid confronting her failures. I think this could allow her to call it quits without ever having to pay a toll.<P>You see, she devastated the OM's kids and his wife - people she dearly loved and cared for because of the way they helped us with our sick son. They have now totally rejected her. We were like one family. And she devastated me into severe depression. She lied all around town blaming me and actually told people I had left her. I think she is running from herself because of what she has done and may never acknowledge her mistakes because of the tremendous guilt she would face. It's like her subconcious won't let her wake up. Add to it the unresolved grief from our son's death. Does this make sense? Not the typical affair fog, perhaps.<P>Anyway, I guess I'll stick around. Maybe take a break first. This place consumes me.<P>Thanks for all your caring.<P>Dave (WAT)

These conversations can start innocently and before you know it, you are sucked into the middle of the storm. Regardless of the level of LB that this is, all one can do is learn from it and go forward in the best way possible. Does that mean Plan A or Plan B? Opinions differ.<P>As in the past, she'll cool off. The standard defence mechanism (denial) was invoked, and that probably doesn't come as a surprise when you stop and think about it.<P>There is nothing that can be done about denial, other than sticking to Plan A or Plan B, and letting PTC work. Lora is a good example of the fact that this takes time, but you never know when things might turn.<P>Sure, she didn't like this conversation, and it didn't score points with her, but giving the speech about loving her and wanting your family was good. Regardless of how upset she is, she heard you. It just won't have a profound impact until fog starts to clear. I really think that all you can do from this is know that once again, denial is all you'll get until her mind begins to clear of the fog.

Dave,<P>You know you are to save those LB's for me to come be the LB farie for you. Ready anytime day or night all you have to do is call.....<P>But like Rick said you ended it on a postive note, you reminder her of how much you love her.<P>Glad you son is alright, he sounds like a neat kid.

Dave, <P>Your ears and eyes must be tired from reading all our posts. Try one more, please. <P>Don't leave this board. Plan B is tough love and sounds like you need to be there, like it or not. You are dealing with someone who chooses not to cooperate at the expense of yourself and your son. You can not change that. <P>Work on what you can change. Have a session with Steve or Jennifer. Let them help you draft a plan b letter. <P>Come on, don't loose that your sensibility. Your son is depending on you. This is not being said to put more burden on you. This is just as much for your benefit and yes, even your W's. <P>Please, you have been there for me, helping me see things straight when I wanted to run. Don run, walk and talk with us. It is ok to vent here. The messenger was not killed, his pride and heart were wounded but he can and will recover. Right?!?!?! <P>I would like to ask for a response. Sorry for being so demanding but I just need to know. Hm..... does that sound controlling. It is not meant to, we just need to see how you are doing after this friendly thrashing from those who care. <P>L.

Dear WAT:<P>Well, this sounds like one of the inane conversation I use to get in with my WS....pointless...stupid...useless...accomplishing nothing...but did that stop me....nope!!!! <P>Rick's right...sometimes you just can't stop it...at times I think you take and take and take and suddenly you're there and it all comes spilling forth.<P>Everyone finally convinced me of the futility of these conversations and I have finally been able to curtail them...not stop them...but limit them by realizing what a waste of time they really are, aside from the LB they entail.<P>Well, pick up your marbles....tomorrow is another day...you lost a few marble today but you get them back tomorrow I sure.<P><BR>Faye<P><BR>