<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

Wow OOOO,<P>Sounds like she wants you to punish her and she wants to live in punishment the rest of her life. Does she understand the concept of forgiveness? Is she Christian? Could you say the only way you would accept her plan is for her to talk to a minister of preist? <P>I guess she doesnt get that her plans to punish herself accutually punish you. How to get across that the way to attone for her sin is to become a happy and loving wife and mother. <P>I wish we could let her talk to Dr Phil from the Oprah show. His straight talking might let her know just how wrong her plan is.<P>I hope someone else can give you better advice.<BR>Lora<BR>

classic ws guilt...<P>is it possible to direct her to this site (if you don't mind sharing your haven)?? would she come here? <P>seeing that she is not alone in her feelings or that what she is going through, others have travelled through and made it to the other side, having support from someone other than the person she betrayed may be helpful to her...knowing that it can be done, and having other people telling her that, showing her how, may make a difference...<P>Dylan

I agree she must understand forgiveness and she needs to know that she must forgive herself also.... Has she gotten any medical attention? sounds like she is depressed and due to all of the hurt now has a low self esteem... talk to a minister/priest and get her to her doctor if she will go..<BR>my prayers are with you.<BR>C1

You know, she's embarrassed and humiliated and ashamed of what she did. It sounds to me like there's no Fog left, and it's almost like she wants you to pity her the way she has pity for herself. Does that make any sense? It's like she wants you to hate her so she can justify her hating herself. Either that or she's hoping she'll sound pathetic enough that you'll have mercy on her and stay with her as some sort of martyr. It's very strange. One thing I think for sure is that she doesn't want to go away and doesn't want you to go away either. I think she talks about wanting to leave only so you'll ask her not to. <P>She talks about not being worthy of your love. That tells me the problem here really isn't you. It's her. Specifically, her self-image, and I don't know that there is much you can do about that. She seems content right now to tell herself she's a failure, like that justifies all of the mistakes she's made and makes it okay for her to not doing anything about it:"Why should I put this behind me and try to re-build my life? I'm too weak for that. It's too hard. I'm just a big loser and it's easier to pretend I don't have the strength to come back." <P>I think most of the things she wrote to you have some sort of ulterior motive, even if she doesn't know it. Things will get better as soon as she stops wallowing and starts trying to put things behind her. Anyone have any idea on how to start that process? Believe it or not, I actually see good signs here.

Can a priest or nun talk to her about how she is beating herself up? Maybe she would listen to a religious "authority" since she is so concerned with becomming a nun later in life. I am sure that they would explain to her that this is unhealthy for herself and the children.

Dear OOOO<P>I want to let you know that I pray for you every day.<P>A while back I told you that you just need to keep making deposits and you will see a change. The change is starting. Your wife now feels comfortable telling you about her feelings and she is kind of testing the waters to see how you will react. Keep it up. Tell her that you understand how she feels, and you are so thankful that she is comfortable telling you her feelings. <P>I would then tell her that you do not want a divorce. Tell her that God's grace is big enough to cover her sin and you will not bring it up again. Tell her that you accept her and want to love her just as Christ loves the Church. Remind her that God had put her sin as far away from her as the east is from the west. Tell her that there is nothing that she could ever do that will stop you from loving her. Read the Book of Hosea and tell your wife that you intend to keep on loving her until death separates you or Jesus comes back to get us.<P>I would also remind her that all of her guilt is coming from Satan. God has washed her and what she is feeling is just Satan's accusations. From your comments, it appears that you and she are Catholic. Go to confession, together if possible, and talk to your priest. Tell him about the issues together, and tell him that you want to keep your wife. <P>I will continue to pray for you, my friend.<P>May the Lord Bless You and Keep You,<BR>John

OOOO<P>I do not post much, I mostly just lurk. However, after reading your post, I wanted to give you my thoughts. I am the BS, my W was the WS. We had lost a child just before Christmas in a vehicle related accident. A pastor took advantage of the difficulties we were having in our marriage and then took advantage of my W’s grief. The EMR was short-lived, but hurts just the same. We are 2+years past d-day. Everything your W said about the guilt, shame, not worthy of your love, etc., I heard from my W. My response to her has always been that we all make mistakes and none of us are worthy of God’s love, but he loves us as we are, blemishes and all. <BR>As for your W becoming a nun, whom will she help if she does not deal with the hurt and guilt that she is currently feeling? As a father who lost a child, I could help no one until a dealt with my loss. When I dealt with that grief, then I was able to help others. Being that she is looking at becoming a nun, I assume that you have some catholic teachings and know some things about the bible. I would ask that you share with her from the bible The Book of John, Chapter 8. Here is a case where a woman was “caught” in the act of A. I must assume from the “caught” that they went looking for someone and found her. In the end, Jesus told her that he would not condemn her and that she was to go and sin no more. Time and time again throughout the bible, you will find acts of forgiveness. Also, some people place one sin above another. In the bible, no sin is greater than another. Sin is sin. I would agree that she needs to see a priest/minister for some help. She has a misunderstanding of a pure heart. No one heart is pure and we all have our blemishes and will have blemishes until we die. It is the repentance from a mistake and accepting forgiveness from that mistake that makes us clean. However, being human, we will stumble and fall from time to time. Think of you kids when they fall and get hurt. You pick them up, clean and bind up their wounds, hug them and off they go again. Only 10-minutes later you are doing the same thing again because they crashed their bike into the family car. That same thing that you do for your kids when they are hurt is what God does for us IF WE LET HIM.<BR>My suggestion is to write her a letter telling her your feelings and that you have forgiven her, totally forgiven her. She needs to know that you will hurt from time to time, but, you have forgiven her. Just my thoughts.<P>

OOOO,<P>I think your should... Then again I think you should...<BR>Further, I think you should... Finally, I think you should...<P>My point is your W is coming out of this. She is facing herself and she is very deep grief for what she has done. You are seeing a dynamically changing situation right now. There is no "right" thing to do right now, because in another day, hour, whatever she will be changing. I do feel her last request was honest.<P>What would I do, I think I would just cry for her pain. I think I would just walk up to her with those notes in my hand, kiss her cheek, forehead, whatever, and say Thank You.<BR>And leave it at that for now. <P><BR>OOOO, she has been thinking, she has been evaluating, she has been facing the music. It seems that what bothers her most is that she did what she did out of anger and spite rather than love. Even her affair wasn't honest if you know what I mean???<P>I would like to hear what you think before I tell you more of what I think. But OOOO she is finally addressing herself, whether that leads to a restoration of your marriage or not, we'll see, but Man! this is progress.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

OOOO,<P>Summer is a long way off, yet. Plan A if you want your marriage. I think you do, but you want a new and improved W. You just might get one as her healing continues. Once, I see your answers I might suggest another letter to her, from you.<P>Heck, I will even tell you what to say. Isn't that novel, an MBer with an opinion. <P>Don't panic OOOO, this will resolve itself as it should.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

OOOO,<P>No brilliant thoughts here, mainly just encouragement to stay the course. As JL suggests, she is in transition. She's coming out of it, and needs you to hold on and be the stable one.<P>Keep up the Plan A. If you do, I don't think she'll move out.<P>As she starts to open up to you emotionally, she'll start letting you meet more of her ENs, and this will help her with her pain. I'm not an expert on mental health, and she does seem to have some big issues, perhaps more than normal guilt. However, being loved can help a person with problems a lot.<P>Remember, though, that between the state of <B>withdrawal</B> and the state of <B>intimacy</B> is the state of <B>conflict</B>, so don't be surprised if there are some ups and downs. Keep your eye more on the overall trend, not on the daily fluctuations.<P>Steve

OOOO,<P>I am not sure you should say anything to her as she continues to process this. But you may need to if she settles on the (I'll divorce you and leave) approach. This may be best but I get the impression that is not what you want.<P>If I were speaking for you I guess I would be inclined to write a letter along the following lines.<P>Dear W,<P>Your notes last night have caused me to do some very serious thinking. First, I want to thank you for sharing with me your thoughts. You have no idea what that means to me. Next, if you would permit me I would like to share some of my thoughts with you. I appreciate that you may not agree with all of them, but they are from my heart.<P>I would like to begin by apologizng to you once again for not being the H you needed in the past. As painful, as this experience has been, it has forced me to learn, grow, and change. When I look in the mirror, I am happier for the changes.<P>You have proposed that you would divorce me and leave the house for the children and I. It is a very generous and heart felt gesture, that I appreciate very much. You have apologized for what you have done to our family, again I deeply appreciate and accept your apology. It is clear that you have and are spending considerable time reevaluating the events of the past year or so. Your new insights are truely powerful.<P>As I mentioned, I have been doing a considerable amount of self evaluation also. Mostly about me. However, I have also been looking at you. Most of what you are coming to see in yourself and are so ashamed of I have seen in you. I will not sugar coat that I believe that I agree with much of your evaluation of yourself. I have been on the receiving end of the "evil" portion of you.<P>But W, there is something that may yet come out in your evaluation. It is something that I see daily and pray for you to see. I have stayed in this marriage and have endured your rejection for a reason. The person I married, love, and admire is still there. I am not so pure of spirit and love as to not to see the darkside, and if that were all there was to you, I could not continue. It has not been a great leap for me because I see the good side of you. I see the little girl your parents raised well into a woman. The woman I married. <P>You see your evil past, but I see your potential for good. I see a woman who has apologized and is shamed not because she is evil, but because she is good and has done something bad. I see a woman I can love, I would like to continue to love, and that I believe in. In short, I see a woman who could be my best friend, who I do love, and has the capacity to be in a marriage with we me that is far better than we had before.<P>I will not push you. I will not try and control your decisions, but you will hurt me and children further with your decision. Perhaps you feel it is right, and perhaps it is. We will see. I will do as you wish, but while things are progressing, would you help me?<P>I need you to keep communicating with me as you did last night. Those notes feel like the first communications I have had with you in years. I would like you to at least entertain the idea, that I do love you and have forgiven you. But most of all, recognize that you are not as "dirty and evil" as you think, and I am not as "pure" as you now portray me. <P>I would dearly love to use all that I have learned and all that you have learned to try and build a marriage. One, our children would be proud of and learn from.<P>There is so much more I would like to say, but I hope that this is the start of a dialogue between us. Thank you for reading this. <P>Your H<P><BR>OOOO, as I said I would write a letter something like the above. I am not sure if you would write such a letter, but perhaps it will give you food for thought.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

OOOO,<P>Have you read Twyla's <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/002988.html" TARGET=_blank>thread</A> on <I>Fear-Whatitmeans to WS</I>?<P>It might give you some ideas about what your wife is/will be feeling.<P>Steve

OOOO,<P>Just thinking about you. Hang in there. do what JL tell you, he always sounds like such a wise man.<P>Wish your W could learn about forgiveness.

wow.<P>JL, will you marry me ... errrr... oops, we are both already married to other people, aren't we - sorry!<P>wow - what an incredible letter!<P>I am virtually speechless. For me that is a major event!<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

OOOO,<P>I don't have any great advice, but I wanted to say that it seems your wife is opening up more, and gradually she seems to be talking more about her incredible guilt associated with the A. I see this all as a good sign. In other words, what I read about her last year and what I read now, seem to be gradually changing.<P>It just seems that more Plan A and continued support towards her is what is needed, but you are doing that anyway.

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

OOOO<P>You both are in my thoughts and prayers. I do not know your story or anything else about you and your children. You do not need to repeat it for my sake. However, I will say this, it takes a man with great courage and love to keep going as you are and with the situation as it currently is. I admire and respect you greatly for that.<BR>I may be off base here and others that have been responding please feel free to agree or disagree. I will not be offended. But your W desires to just be your friend. Then for now treat her as a friend. Since d-day, have you provided any type of a “gift” for the W. Even a friend can give a friend a flower, a card, or an encouraging word. You can always give her a flower and sign it “A Friend”. Sometimes the way to the heart and soul of the one you love starts with a small gesture of kindness.<P>Prayers are with you.<BR>