Oldtimers, newbies anyone with advice or thoughts -<P>My H got involved with an OW in summer 98 and I discovered in Jan 99. I found this board around the same time and did plan A (with and without Steve H. counseling) for about 2 years until this past Jan (with one failed plan b in between). My H moved out in Aug 99, back in in Dec 99 and finally to another state in Feb 00. He is still involved with OW, but theirs has been a long distance relationship for over a year now. I moved to a real plan b the beginning of this year. <P>As my old friends know, we have been through everything. His job loss because of affair, his difficulty finding a new job for the same reason, her suicide attempts. It was sordid and melodramatic and I look back on those times not knowing how I lived through them. In the last few months, I have finally begun to find peace again, and the sharp rejection I have lived with is beginning to fade. Our marriage wasn't perfect - he had anger issues, and I withdrew and recoiled from this. But he was also exciting and charismatic and gentle, and I felt alive with him. I know how we drifted apart, and I hoped against hope we would get another chance to "do it right". But we don't always get second chances with the same person. <P>We had many, many attempts at reconciliation, but he could never stop contacting OW, and always went back to her. We mediated our separation agreement last fall (I initiated when he insisted on buying a home of his own in new city) and, surprise, H never filed it. In fact, a month or so ago when we were scheduling our last mediation session he told me he thought I could just file the divorce since I live here and it would be "easier". Amazing. I let him know that this was his divorce and that I would let him follow it through, thank you very much. He told me he didn't want to be the bad guy any more than I did. I said I didn't look at it that way, I looked at it as being true to your own desires, commitments and beliefs. I don't want a divorce, I would have preferred to work on our marriage.<P>He has now finally retained an atty. There is really very little left to do but file the papers we have already negotiated. I could be divorced in 6-8 weeks (if he moves on filing-big if). I have come out of plan b to face reality and try to build a decent co-parenting relationship.<P>And what do I hear from him now that I am finally talking to him again? All the same mixed messages I stopped listening to 5 months ago! He feels trapped in the relationship with OW even though he cares about her, he misses the kids terribly, he still wants to be friends and more with me, he feels "rushed" (after almost three years!!), he feels he is in a car with no brakes and can't stop the momentum toward divorce now. He said his therapist and OW have both been asking him if he would be getting divorced if there were no OW in the picture - or would he be working things out with me? He doesn't know. I said that I believed firmly that if he had been able to end the relationship, we would have been working on our marriage. Maybe successfully, maybe not, but we would have tried. But since OW was still "in the picture" it was all hypothetical and we would never really know how things might have worked out. I shared that this made me sad, but that I was finally beginning to accept it.<P>And here's the saddest part. I feel sick to my stomach when I hear this. I no longer want to allow any hope to resonate inside me. It is all only talk. I don't believe in " the fog" anymore. This is not a temporary condition. It is part of his character and personality. He cannot sacrifice for others if it hurts him. Whether that other is OW or me. He wants a piece of both of us. Not out of commitment to either of us, but because HE needs it. And he can't bridge the gap he feels when he leaves either of us long enough to either find a way to meet his own needs, or help his partner learn about them and how to meet them.<P>I have built a life I like. I miss intimacy horribly. But I don't miss how his utter confusion and ambivalence affect me. Although I don't want to hope because I am convinced it is totally unfounded, it is hard to extinguish the flicker I feel in my heart. I just want him to shut up and stop sharing his feelings with me if he isn't prepared to really do anything about them. I just want him to stop trying to elicit sympathy from me. I just want him to stop inviting me to visit in his new city. I just want to not still feel so d*mned attracted to him. He is just using me. He calls it friendship; I have no other "friends" who demand so much of me and give so little. I want plan B back - was I not in it long enough? I felt more sure of myself and safer. But I don't believe it is a good or healthy way for parents to interact once divorced. <P>As I have learned, I cannot make him do anything. I couldn't keep him from leaving, nor can keep him from reaching out to me in this half-*ssed way. I just feel such a huge burden. I have to be the one to force emotional distance so I can heal. I will likely be the "bad guy" who finally gets the divorce moving. Why? I never wanted this! <P>But I no longer want limbo either. Yes as you have probably surmised I do still love my H - but I love the image I had of an H who was truly capable of committing to me. The man he is now would keep me (and OW) on a string forever, so his needs would be met. And then tell me how bad and guilty he feels for hurting me. No thank you.<P>Why did I write this long ramble? Is anyone able to even get to the end of this heart dump?<P>I think I want to know it is OK to let go. No - I want the strength to let go. I want the strength to fight my still strong feelings of attraction and not get sucked back in to his neuroses. <P>And yet, that flicker of hope has a voice. It is small and distant, but it is nagging and asking "what if this time is real?" "What if you are shutting him out just when he if finally coming around?" It is hard to ignore. But I feel I must or I will be back in the crazy land I have finally begun to leave behind…. It is not real. He knows what I need. And he knows what he has to do. He isn't doing it. End of story.<P>Geez…I'm becoming a basket case again. Thanks for letting me dump here..<P>Starpony<BR>

Smae boat, different paddle. <P>Hang in there, it is alright to let go. Sometimes you have to. Letting go of it now does not mean forever. Even if it is forever, letting go now does not put the stamp there.<P>Sometimes we have to move on to get away from where we are. What do I mean? They say hindsight is 20/20 right? Well you can't see it if you're still standing in it! It may be roses it may be a pile of ****. You won't know till you 'move'.<P>Good to hear from you again.<P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited May 03, 2001).]

Starpony,<BR>My old friend. <P>It is ok to let go. <P>You don't have to file for the divorce unless you want to.<P>You can be his "friendly co-parent" but still set boundaries on his yanking your chain. Difficult, but you can do it. Look into his eyes and say, "I'm not discussing your personal life with you until she is out of your life/or until your actions show you are willing to be my husband."<P>If he is ever to come back...he needs to prove his intent to you with his actions. When my H came back, we'd had 4 months of no OW, he didn't go to bars, he took his anti-deps, he went to counseling on his own, he was accountable, he gave me email & voice mail passwords. In short, he was consistant and his actions trustworthy. At that point, I was wanting a divorce, wasn't asking anything much from him, he did these things on his own. If you aren't seeing that, you aren't seeing a change, and it will likely be one more spin on the death cycle.<P>My H did come out of it after 2 years. It is possible. But he also had to prove it to me. When he had promised and broken those promises so many times, I needed confirmation more, and for a long time.<P>I don't know if I'm being helpful to you. If you hold any hope for your marriage all you can do is live your life as well as possible...and I guess that is true regardless.<P>Hugs to you,<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He knows what I need. And he knows what he has to do. He isn't doing it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Starpony, you've basically laid this on the line. Although 4 months is short for Plan B, you've been dealing with this whole thing for a long time. If you want the divorce---then move forward with it. And if you want to give him a chance,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He knows what I need. And he knows what he has to do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He needs to do it. And you need to be in a firm Plan B until then.<P>God bless you...

To the woman with the prettiest name on this site... I always picture my little pony with sparkles! <P>It's okay to let go.<P>You did the Plan A thing for a long time... and although Plan B for not too long, you know when you've hit the wall. If it's the wall... then stop. Rest.<P>It's sad no matter what... and there is a grieving process... feel it... work through it... go on.<P>Best wishes as you continue to navigate this rocky path. We understand.<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited May 03, 2001).]

Thank you all - You have brought me back from the brink once again.<P>Paul - I am thankful to see you here. I am sorry about your own continued struggles. The repeated back and forth leaves us injured doesn't it? I was starting to see roses when I moved away from him, now I feel momentarily unable to see what I am standing in again…<P>Lor - Hi dear. I know we have had these conversations before. I do thank you for the "try saying this" example. And no, I'm not getting back on the death cycle.<P>K. Yup. Thanks for bringing the perspective back to where it belongs at this point. What do I want? Divorce, well, no, not really yet. To give him another chance? H*LL no, not with OW still around. To be diverted from the healing and growing path I am on? No. So, plan B - until D is final by his initiative, or I decide it is what I want.<P>NB - I have loved seeing you back here. I've been greiving, and I've been healing, and I have stumbled on this rock in the path before. I will get up and keep going. Somehow I keep skirting the wall without ever really hitting it.<P>

Hello old friend. Good to see you here.<P>You know what to do. Lor said it well, in my view. He has to prove it to you at this point, a totally skeptical you, I might add. One that has moved to the point of seeing that it’s not fog, it’s character. That will take a lot of proving.<P>When I was in roughly the same place as you, I too posted something like this, essentially asking for permission. It’s amazing to me that strong women like us, who have worked this situation for years, still have guilt associated with being the ones that take the decisive action to end things. Starpony, you don’t need anyone’s permission. You are such a strong and loving woman, one with eyes wide open at this point. You can live your life guilt-free about this situation. You have done everything humanly possible, and some things not humanly possible.<P>Someone from this forum gave me incredible advice about a year ago when I was in this spot. She asked me to imagine what would happen if my husband and I did reconcile. Could he ever be enough for me now? I forced myself through that exercise. There were the external obstacles – getting my family and friends to accept him again, his continuing to work with the OW, and addressing all the changes we’ve both made in this lengthy period of time. Those are pretty big. But nothing compared to the internal obstacles. What about his behavior during the last three years gives me the least shred of hope that he could ever be a good marriage partner? I had to face this one really hard. NOTHING. We have learned through tremendous pain that marriage takes effort, work. Both people need to work. So if he came back, he would come back to the situation where I would be carrying the entire marriage. It's not enough to be reconciled. I need to be reconciled AND happy in the marriage. I couldn't imagine it.<P>K as always gives great advice. If you don’t yet know for sure which direction to go, you need to remain out of contact. It’s the contact that gives you false hope. And there is NO HOPE, unless the OW is already gone and he has committed to do all the things necessary to re-establish trust. Even then, it will be an uphill battle to turn this into a good marriage with equally contributing partners.<P>A big hug to you my dear friend.<BR>

Starpony! <P>I was hoping you would give an update on your situation. I have been thinking about you.<P>I can remember going through the same thought process about it being all about him. But it really is. They are very selfish while still in the emr and he has even admitted to me now.<P>I rememember reading in recovery not to long ago about affair behavior and that is what this is. I had to look really hard and see if that was how he had always been or just during the affair and I have processed our whole marriage and don't see it, and I took a chance and let him back in and for sure don't see it now.<P> No you can not make him do anything. But you know what. You are in control here. Thats not so bad if you think about it. You do, what you want to do, when you want to.<P>Lilly<P>

Starpony:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>And yet, that flicker of hope has a voice. It is small and distant, but it is nagging and asking "what if this time is real?" "What if you are shutting him out just when he if finally coming around?" It is hard to ignore. But I feel I must or I will be back in the crazy land I have finally begun to leave behind…. It is not real. He knows what I need. And he knows what he has to do. He isn't doing it. End of story.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think you answer you own question here. If he is finally coming around, nothing you can do will stop him from doing so...the only problem will be will you still be there for him....do you even want to be there.<P>I agree with your assessment of his general tendencies toward looking after himself first...and if he is really growing tired of OW and their relationship, there might just be an element of needing someone else to be a crutch for a while until he finds something else. I have seen this in my WS...who sounds quite a bit like yours...but at no time has he honestly been threatened by the possibility of the lose of me. That's the one element in this situation he can't control any longer....the possibility that I can and will move on. <P>Your movement into a full Plan B may be the impetus for his dissatisfication with his present life...or he may be calling your bluff by appearing to be waivering in his fence-sitting. Don't let him do this....continue with your Plan B as long as you can. You're right that emotional distance from him is healing for you...as long as he continues contact with OW. Divorce only releases you from the legal obligations of marriage...not the emotional ones. So don't let the divorce threat or the sympathy ploy deter you...keep on the path...not because it's having any effect on him but because it's what you need.<P>Faye<P> <P><p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited May 03, 2001).]

Dear Starpony,<P>Wow, that sounds like what my H went through. That is a long time to be saying "I don't know". To me that sounds like he is still in the fog. One of the things I had to learn was patience. I still am working on it. However, in the case of "I don't know", there was only so long that I could stand hearing my H say that. <P>d/d for me has been since Nov 00. I found MB in Jan 01. Everyone here has helped me tremendously. In my case, H said he would have stayed waffling back and forth between OW and his family for as long as we let him. He himself would have allowed it to go on forever. He did not feel like he had the strength to change, he wanted others to make the decision for him. He would even create scenarios for both OW and his family to make us fight against him. <P>Well, once I caught on to that game, I took myself out of the picture. About that time 2 posters on the d/d board helped me go through the steps of grieving and put things in better perspective. Along with this I was asked to read a bood called Love must be Tough by Dr. James Dobson. <P>This allowed me to focus on strengthening myself. Eventually H realized, this was not healthy for him or us. H really did want his family back but OW made him to weak by her strong arm influence. She constantly reminded him how bad I was for him and how much I did not love him. Imagine someone I never met is telling my H that I am bad for him. She does not know my personality, but was anxious to replace me and be the next Mrs. _________. YUCK!!! <P>When H saw my child and I going on with our lives, he started to fell left behind. OW was not moving on, she wanted him to be 'stuck' with her. When she felt he was 'stuck' with her, then her real personality of controlling him came out. She even went to far as to reject his offer to move in with her thinking he would come groveling back. He took that as a no and reevaluated his situation. Realizing that OW was a control freak and deciding his family was more important that casual sex and with lots of control (oh yes money was promised), H made the decision. He is still weak but getting stronger by the day. I still fear he will revert but must work with where he is now. <P>I aplologize for rambling on. Many here have read this before. I just want to give you my story in hopes it may help. <P>Please take care,<BR>L.<P><BR>You probably know all this already but I would like to share these 2 things with you. Even though we know and can see often it is the actual commitment or doing that is the stopper. (I apologize for that last sentence not being to clear). Here is the link to that post:<P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002494.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002494.html</A> <P>

Hey StarPony,<P>No great words of wisdom from this camp, only my best thoughts and prayers for you.<P>Just wanted you to know another old timer pulling for ya!!!<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Zip

Thanks again to all of you. <P>Distressed. Well, that is very good advice - (as usual!) I think I am still a bit vulnerable to try your exercise yet, but once I've reestablished some distance I think the answer will be clear. Thanks for always being there for me.<P>Hi Lilly. Well, OK, I guess this could just be affair behavior, but when you have an affair ongoing for almost three years it gets hard to remember the first 11 years of the marriage - ya know? But you are right, I am in control. And it is really not so bad. How are you by the way? Great to see you!<P>Buffy. Right, if it is real nothing is going to stop him. Thanks for writing. I have always learned a lot from your posts.<P>Orchid. My H says the same. He was "happy" having both his family and OW. Gag! I guess what is really bothering me is how LOOONNNGG he has been in this so-called fog. My d-day was over 2 years ago…. Anyway, your grieving post was appreciated. I have been working through the "rebuilding" book and was really making some good forward steps and focusing on myself. I will keep this up.<P>Medic. Zippy how the H*ll are you? Your post made me smile.<P>I've decided to set a time limit for my plan B - until our divorce (by his initiative or mine) or the end of summer - whichever comes first. Four months is short to be in plan B - mostly from my perspective. I am clearly not yet strong enough to handle his wavering without being emotionally ambushed. In that time I will keep working on my grief and rebuilding and strengthening myself. <P>Sometimes I feel so pathetic. I know I am not, but I do wonder why I can't move forward on this. Distressed mentioned guilt, but I don't think that is it entirely. Some days, it just feels so wrong to be divorcing…<P>Thank you all again. I'll still be around…<P>Starpony<BR>

Starpony:<P>I think that a goal of Plan B to the end of the summer is an excellent idea. You can reevaulate it at that point, and see how the idea of divorce seems to you at that point. If you're served during this period---you can see how THAT feels and decide to go forward (or perhaps stall, if possible).<P>You're not pathetic at all---you're maintaining hope for your marriage, and doing the right things to give that small hope a chance to become reality. Take your time and handle this in a way that makes sense to you.<P>God bless you, Starpony!<P>

Hi *Pony!<P>I can only do a quick note right now. But, I'm in the exact same place as you, so I can really, really relate. It IS okay to let go. You didn't create his problem(s), you can't fix them. He is the only one who can. Here is my email address if you want to compare notes:<P>skibears12@aol.com<P>Take care of YOU!! My thoughts are with you.

Starpony,<P>Checking in today and saw your post. My 2 cents are this:<P>1 cent: ACTIONS mean more than words. If he is sincere, he will do what it takes to give your relationship a chance.<P>2 cent: Stay in Plan B. First, it may be the reality of the consequences of his ongoing affair and inability to commit to that marriage that MIGHT be making him realize what he is going to lose. Or, it might be that he just loves the thrill and attention of 2 women wanting him, with no intention to commit to either of you. Either way, Plan B is for YOU - it removes you from all the intensity and confusion. Sounds like you got the peace Plan B can eventually bring, didn't you? <P>If he decides to take ACTION, you guys can have a second chance at saving your marriage. If not, Plan B will help you to eventually lose that last ember you hold in your heart for your H. You still have a little love and hope left, or his words without action would not have stirred the confusion in you. You have every right to do what you want at this point - wait longer in Plan B and not file, or file later, at the end of your time line. You are in control of your life, and you need to decide your course and direction. If your H is sincere, he will finally do what needs to be done. If he doesn't do it, then you will finally know in your heart that he is not sincere about wanting a commited relationship to you at all.<P>Take care. {{{{{{{{{Starpony}}}}}}}}}}<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

MONDO HUG Starpony!!!!!<P>I'm praying for you.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Dear Starpony,<P>I think Lor (Lor) said it the best, - healthy boundaries - and a plan B with co-parenting. Very rational, very reasonable, very respectful, non-judgemental, HONEST, non-assuming, and very comfortable....<P>Hang in there, you sound like the sanest one here! That oughta count for something, dontcha think?<P> <BR>TnT

Hi Starpony,<P>I've been wondering how you were doing.<P>I can completely relate to how you feel. I too felt more peaceful in plan b. While I still had to see him in plan b at our childrens events I kept my distance and only spoke to him in a business like manner. After about six weeks he started coming around the house again and asking me to participate in family events. Unfortunately I did this only to find out that ow is still in the picture. (Long ugly story)<P>In my case h never actually asked to work on marriage but just kind of wormed his way back into our lives. I found out in a terrible way (through my children) that ow was still around. It turns out that their relationship is off and on. He does something she doesn't like and they fight. Then they reconcile. Apparently repeatedly according to her. She knows he is fence sitting and so do I. H says he doesn't know what he wants when I tell him to just go and file. I like you do not want to file. I want a chance to work on our marriage with her out of the picture but he is unable to let go of her. <P>A part of me wants a divorce and for this to all be over but, the timeline that the Harley's describe fits to T. It's been a little over two years since d day and it sounds like thier relationship is very rocky. Reality is setting in and apparently he won't commit either way and she doesn't like it. It's the thought that their relationship may die soon that keeps me hanging on. Even if it does die that doesn't mean our marriage will work. He's done a lot of terrible things to me and I don't know if I will ever truly trust him again but I guess I just want the chance to work on it without her in the picture. <P>Anyway, in our state it takes six months for a divorce to be final and I have been wrestling with the idea of filing for several weeks so that I have a time frame too. After huge blow up two weeks ago I have gone back into plan b trying to find peace again. <P>I'll be thinking of you. Let us know how you are doing or if you want to email me my address is cwalker842@aol.com.<P>LOL<P>Hoping

Starpony, <P>Beleive me I do know! As for me, things just keep getting better and better. Really nice just moving forward all the time.<P>You will too. I know that. No matter what.<P>Lilly

HI starpony,<BR>Just sending some hugs, prayers, and lots of positive energy your way my dear. <BR>My only words of wisdom are that you realize your own needs, and keep them in mind when dealing with this.<BR>(((((hugs))))) cl