K,<P>I read your response to another poster on the Plan A/Plan B board and it raised two questions in my mind:<P>1. You stated that Plan B probably would not be helpful if the WS was not in love with you at the time. I was wondering what you meant by that.<P>2. You also stated that most therapists don't have a clue when it comes to marriage counseling. At Steve Harley's suggestion ( I have been through about eight or so conseling sessions with him) I enlisted the services of a Chritian counselor in my area for my kids who are having problems with the separation we are going through. Although invited twice, my wife refused to participate. So I had to meet with the counselor alone to give her background on the situation. Naturally, it probably appeared rather one-sided. I was shocked that this counselor, even though Dr. Harley's books were reading material in her waiting room, thought I was wasting my time following the Harley advice. She felt that I needed to prepare myself to move on.<P>I was wondering what experience you may have had that led you to your conclusion about these other therapist.<p>[This message has been edited by Always Hopeful (edited May 03, 2001).]

Regarding question 1. When a spouse has an affair, it's often a symptom of the health of the marriage. There are abberations to this who have "great marriages" and go and fool around anyways (the sex addicts, for example). But by in large, people who go and have an affair are unhappy with their marriage.<P>Now, my opinion is that if they're not too unhappy, and they have a spouse who has been meeting a lot of their primary needs, AND the affair isn't too serious---a threat of separation or a brief Plan B (tough love) can work. However, it can also backfire. I never think of Plan A as having any potential for backfiring---except when a betrayed spouse stays in it too long and goes from an initial, loving Plan A into a bitter divorce mode.<P>Plan A is an opportunity for the betrayed spouse to address deficiencies in their marital skill set---they're going to need to do this at some point in the future, whether the marriage survives or not. I believe that the Harley's find this most effective to do right up front: it takes the wayward spouse by surprise (it's not the typical reaction), and it's done with the intent to negotiate an end to the affair, using new, "polite", loving skills.<P>If you drop into a Plan B immediately---the wayward spouse will be immediately relieved (ususally). It'll also give them an opportunity to be with the OP. Fantasy will abound for a while. (This is true regardless of when you go to Plan B). Usually the affair will burn out. The difference is an effective Plan A makes the wayward spouse think "Hey, I didn't have it so bad in the marriage---maybe I should think about swallowing my pride and come back". No plan A (or a punishing "end of Plan A") will tend to make the wayward spouse say "well, the affair is over---but the marriage was hell too. I'm not going back there..."<P>My advice is to ALWAYS do a Plan A followed by a Plan B, unless the betrayed spouse is incapable of doing a Plan A (because they can't control their anger). Those people who are so angry usually don't have much of a chance for a good marriage anyway. The longer the affair, the more "involved" the affair, and the worse off the marriage was just prior to the affair---all these are indicators that a really solid Plan A is needed.<P>As to my comments about therapists, most therapists are trained to do 1-on-1 counseling. Most therapists goal (other than permanent employment) is to seek a "happiness" quotient using non-directive techniques. Many won't take a moral stand (and hey---it's not effective for any therapist to beat a wayward spouse up on the first session---they won't come back). Many have no idea how to effectively manage marriage dynamics. <P>I did counseling with both Steve Harley (and recently, a bit with Jenn). While I was dealing with my wife's affair, I also did some 1-on-1 therapy with a well-respected local therapist. When I went in to see her, I told her two things: my primary goal was effective management of my behaviors and strategies centered around saving my marriage, and that if she pulled out "co-dependency" theory, I'd smack her upside the head.<P>Well, after a half dozen sessions, she pulled out co-dependency. I told her that she should have been upfront with me, gave her my opinion of the theory and how it doesn't relate to healthy relationships, and never came back. In dealing with some married and divorced people through some of my work, I find that many of them are extremely dissatisfied with the "marriage counseling" they get.<P>Steve will help you "move on". That it one of the benefits of Plan A and Plan B. Plan A will improve your relationship skills. Plan B will give you time to slowly withdraw from your wife. It's my opinion that the concerted application of these plans will give a marriage hit by infidelity the best chance to survive. If it doesn't---you will be more prepared to find a new partner. You will have a skill set grounded in MB principles that will give your marriage a much better chance of survival. And the Plan B has build in the required "healing" period that everyone needs to go through after the breakup of a marriage.

K-<P>Thanks for your reply.<P>Not meaning to sound stupid, but just what is the co-dependency theory?<P>I think your theory of Plan A never "backfiring" is correct. It is also probably why some BS, like myself, have a definite fear of moving into Plan B. Steve wanted me to move into Plan B after about four months of Plan A. I tried and it didn't work. It didn't even last a day. I kept telling myself Plan B would be too detrimental for my kids. But I now believe the real truth is that I felt I hadn't accomplished what I wanted to in Plan A. I believe more can be done. Steve was worried how I was holding out and that is why he felt Plan B was necessary.<P>But if you know my story, you know that my wife is having her affair with another woman. Even though the two of them have separated from their spouses, they still would not admit the truth to anyone. That all changed when my attempt into Plan B included me revealing the truth to our daughters and my in-laws. At least that part of the plan Steve and I set up did succeed. It was like a shot in the arm for me when that occurred and was a boost to my confidence and self esteem. Knowing that I was a part in keeping their horrible secret and bearing that weight was taking its toll on me. Don't get me wrong, I still have my bad days once in a while and miss my wife horribly. But I have a strong feeling that moving into Plan B would be a grave mistake at this time. Curiously, my wife has tried to do damage control since this event, insisting to all those concerned that she and this OP are just best friends. I'm taking that as a positive sign. First, if she really felt this relationship was her future, she would have declared that by now and taken appropriate steps to do so. Instead, her lies and deceptions just keep adding up. That's got to catch up to their relationship sooner or later. Secondly, no one believes her "best friends " explanation. Right now, she doesn't seem to see or care about that. But again, that's got to take its toll someday.<P>For now, I'm going to try to hold out in Plan A as long as possible. I know it goes against what Steve believes, but I also feel that I am the only one that can really gauge how long I can hold out. Like you stated, the longer I can show my willingness to improve meeting her needs, the more effective Plan B can be. Didn't NSR hold out for almost two years?<P>Incidently, my inquiry about therapists stemmed from my visit with a Christian counselor I took my daughters to this week. This was Steve's suggestion. This counselor seemed to be more worried about me wasting my time with the whole Harley theory and that there probably was no hope because my wife was homosexual. All this from about 45 minutes of meeting me for the first time!<P>Thanks again...<p>[This message has been edited by Always Hopeful (edited May 04, 2001).]

Always Hopeful:<P>There's an article about co-dependency theory <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html" TARGET=_blank>here.</A><P>Regarding Plan B...<P>Plan B is the toughest part of this whole thing that I ever did. Discovering about the affair was cake. Doing Plan A wasn't bad---I was doing something for me and my marriage. Even finding out my wife was pregnant wasn't all that big of a surprise (she had pretty much done everything else---why not that?).<P>But Plan B. Tough. You have to make a break, that may not feel right.<P>It's my opinion that if you're doing consistant counseling with Steve (say every other week), he may actually be a better judge than you are as to when you're nearing the breaking point and ready to go to Plan B. He's dealt with many more people going through this---and there are behaviors and feelings that he watches for to let him know that you've just about had enough. That's not to say that you can't extend your time in Plan A---and when a separation exists, it can go much longer. But there is a time and place for Plan B, and I'm very happy with the calls that Steve helped me make concerning timing.<P>Plan B is usually referred to as the "self-protection plan". For you. But it also takes away the wayward spouse's ability to have their cake and eat it too. You withdraw from meeting their needs. It's on the OP now. If you are still meeting your wife's needs, it may enable her to sit on the fence longer. You may need to move to Plan B more for that reason than any other.<P>Finally, Plan B can work with children. You're already separated, which is the major impact plan B has on the kids. They don't have both parents under one roof. Everything else can be mediated through third parties. The reason Plan B was so difficult for me was that I left my kids, along with my wife. It was extremely hard---although I felt that it gave my marriage the best chance for recovery, I felt like I was abandoning them. But I wasn't. I saw them plenty, and in some ways I actually had more quality time with them than I do now ('cause I wasn't doing housework/yardwork, or spending time with the wife).<P>I'd encourage you to keep in touch with Steve, and let him help you evaluate how you're doing in regards to Plan A and B. At this point, I would guess that there's no reason you shouldn't think about moving to Plan B---you've already established a consistant track record of new marital behavior in Plan A, and you're separated.<P><BR>

<B>K</B>...<P>...beautifully stated.<P>A point of clarification on my history...<BR>I did a psuedo Plan A for the first 5 1/2 months of the affair (knew nothing about MB... and had 2 massive LB incidents)...<BR>When I found MB... I did a so-so Plan A (not understanding it fully) for 3 monthsm, and had only minimal & few LBs...<P>After speaking to Steve (and this <B>is</B> key to everyone who can afford any counseling)... I was on the right track of what Plan A was all about!<P>But...<BR>...since my W pressed to issue of divorce...<BR>...and like a frieght train... you really can't stop it...<BR>...I Plan A-ed (the purest kind) the best I could for an additional 13 months... before the immediacy of the divorce meant I had to go to Plan B... (self preservation!)<P>For me... the length of time in Plan A... was just right!<BR>For most... it should be shorter!<P>----------------------------------------<P>Plan B...<BR>...stop worrying about it!<P>Like <B>K</B> said... your separated...<BR>...and that is what is the major impact to the children!<P>Just keep the interactions with your W solely on the kids!!!<BR>...and don't dwell on what she is thinking about!<P>-----------------------------------------<P>My experience with counselors matches most others...<BR>...not good!<BR>The counselor I had before finding MB...<BR>...was, as <B>K</B> said... on which "seek a "happiness" quotient using non-directive techniques."<P>The same old... "get over it" was the message I got!<P>Now...<BR>...mine understood my W... and in a sense was right...<BR>...(that she would not come back to me)...<BR>...but offered <B>NO</B> support of my personal growth...<P><B>Growth... doesn't mean be happy</B>!<P>Growth requires some pain...<BR>...if it is true growth!<P>Plan A... Plan B... both will result in some pain...<BR>...but the better they are done...<BR>...the more permanent the growth... and through that growth... a real happiness!<P> <P>Jim

K & NSR-<P>Thanks to both of you.<P>I do plan on keeping in touch with Steve. The problem is the financial aspect right now. It's tough enough to support one household, let alone two. My kids are a priorty right now and the therapy budget can only support them for the moment. Besides, I really don't have much more changes to report to Steve for now. Any session would probably be more for his support then anything else. Not to say that it isn't needed or wouldn't be appreciated. I am a little perplexed that my sessions with him can't be covered by my medical insurance. I have a pretty liberal program and can go to any marriage counselor I want. The problem is, MB is considered a "Marriage Coaching" service and therefore is not covered. I'm not belittling MB by any means, but for the fees they charge they should look into doing something about that

I hear you on the financial. And while I was in Plan B, I didn't need as much support from Steve either (just his excellent cheerleading services).<P>Have you tried to submit a bill to your insurance for reimbursement?<P>

K-<P>Not yet, but I am going to try. According to the forms I need to fill out, there are certain numbers that I have to obtain from MB in order to be re-imbursed. When I called the MB office to ask, they stated they had no such numbers because they are not considered a psychological service. They are listed as a "Marriage Coaching" service. I'm not sure whether or not this is because Steve doesn't have enough letters after his name or what, but they really should look into what it would take to accomplish this. I, for one, would definitely use them a lot more often.