How do you forgive them? I just keeping of all the terrible things that he said to me. Then I think to myself, I must be the biggest fool on this planet. I think he is trying, but I do not want to go through this again. I will never trust him again. What made the OW so special? I just keep thinking that I could find someone wonderful.

=<p>[This message has been edited by GraceLeigh (edited June 01, 2001).]

mon,you asked:<P>"How do you forgive them?" Only with a lot of time. I'm not talking a few weeks or a few months. I'm talking a few years. There are several things that I find myself unable to forgive my H for - specifically the things that he has not yet apologized for. I actually have a list. The things that he has apologized for, I forgave him for instantly. But it's very difficult when there are so many different events and levels of hurt. In your case, you keep thinking about the terrible things that he said to you during the EMR. My H said terrible things to me too when he was involved with the XOW. He has never been as cruel to me as he was when they were together, never. I always felt that he was berating me because I wasn't the XOW, or that he was attempting to villify me far more than necessary to justify his actions so that he wouldn't feel guilty about being with the XOW. <P>You are *not* a fool, mon. Forgiveness does not make you a fool, nor does loving someone who is imperfect. You might never trust your H again, at least not the way you used to. It's very difficult to get that back, especially when the issues are still left unresolved and you still feel as though you need a sincere, truthful apology. But I think that you, like myself and a lot of people posting on MB, will eventually come to trust him as much as you know you can. You will love him "with that little doubt," to quote Melanie Rae Thon. Maybe this is enough - maybe this is the way we should love, with that little doubt.<P>"What made the OW so special?" Mon, there is NOTHING special about the OW aside from the fact that she was WILLING AND AVAILABLE. Yeah, you could probably find some "wonderful" person like that as well. But how "wonderful" is a person who sashays into a faltering marriage without a care and manipulates a spouse's emotions to their will, *knowing* that their presence in the marriage is doing irreperable harm? There is *nothing* special about that, mon - at least not in the good sense of it being special. There are millions of women like your H's OW. If it wasn't going to be her, it would be another OW. One dismal thing about this process is that you (the BS) find out how many people there are out there in the world who are willing and ready to get involved with a married person and tear them away from their spouse with absolutely no regrets. It is indeed sad. But it is NOT special.<P>Hope your day goes better - remember, YOU are the special one. You are not the liar, you are not the wayward spouse, you did not seek comfort outside of the marriage. Hold your head up high!<P>((hugs))<P>belldandy

Dear Mon,<P>Belldandy said it so well. It was uplifting to me as well. <BR>Truth of the matter is, is that it will always be a part of our lives that we remember with regret. How much we let it take over our lives is what we can control. True repentance can not be faked. Time does heal all wounds and time does tell the truth. <P>Dwelling on their coversations and what OP & WS shared together is not healthy. BS often feel it is a need and to a certain degree it may be (especailly at the beginning - there are many opinions on that), but bottom line is that if there is true repentance, then being able to forgive and move on is what not just one but both mates need to do. You got into this marriage together, it takes only one to break a marriage but it does take 2 to repair it. <P>Shame on all those who willingly break up families. Who show no remorse in hurting others. They are all around us. They could be our neighbors, co-workers, people in the store, wherever. They look normal but live a double life. Never do they want you to see them as they really are. But we do. The BS see all to often what the OP really looks like and our WSs also take on those looks. Getting our WS's to clean up their act is like asking them to take a bath after rolling around in the muck of an A. It is hard to get that embedded dirt out. It will take effort, they will need help. Once clean, they will see how bad off they were. In the meantime, we can keep trying to help them get clean by showing them how we are. <P>The OWs are not special, just a product of bad feelings and bad timing. Don't let the OW or WS take away the respect that belongs to you. You are the faithful spouse then you are the special one. <P>L.

We had a very deep conversation this weekend, WS and I. Maybe this will help you.<BR>He still feels that I will never forgive him...and that why do I want him? He sees no progress...Geez, I no longer wake up crying and go to sleep crying..That is progress. He told me of some of the mean things I said to him.I heard him and I cried for hurting him and told him I was sorry and didn't mean it. I would like him to do the same...but he was not in a place where he could...,says he already has...over and over but half the things he doesn't even remember saying.<P>I have been focusing on parts of all of our conversations, trying to find the one true thing.Turns out that each revelation disclosed over the last 9 months is the truth...he had so may thoughts in his head during the A...He loved her,he didn't, he wanted the M, he didn't, he didn't want her,he did...all part of his reality. ALL of it is true...<P>About OW...all it was is that she is not ME. He realized that everything they "had" was worthless because she is not me. And he was so afraid she would tell me and end the M.Special? How can a woman who is in her second affair and sees nothing wrong with it...who was willing to leave her children for him...lied to him about all kinds of stuff and was willing to continue the A after he came home,once he knew where he wanted to be, EVER be special? She was also Available and willing and that's all. It's not about her and being special, it's about him and what he allowed himself to believe.

You guys are great. . .your replies were just what I needed to hear for encouragment.<P>I have just returned to my husband after a year's separation. I have spent weeks feeling like a dummy--he is really not remorseful about having an affair. He blames it on me. That was not quite the scenario I had in mind.<P>All of my old friends and aquaintances--they should be saying "Welcome back, I missed you!" Instead, they say "WHY did you come back to him?"<P>I stutter over this--why did I come back? I don't have a ready reply. I am having a horrible time trying to forgive--everything is a trigger, and I spend 90% of my time biting my tongue. The rest of the time I slip and comment on the affair and his behavior. Plan A is so hard for me. Why can't I just forgive and forget? How long is it going to take?<P>I feel like I always have: This relationship depends on my behavior alone, I am the only one responsible for what happens. I am accountable for what I do, he is not accountable for what he does. I had better never be mad at him and he has every right to be mad at me. If I do something wrong, I had better fess up and pay up--but I must forgive him unconditionally and let him be.<P>Kinda like living with a giant 2 year old sometimes.<P>Well, anyways, your replies gave me a lot of encouragement.<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited May 07, 2001).]

Bernzini, How long have you been back together?<P>For the first couple of months,it was all my fault,,,only therapy helped.He blamed me for his having an A. Wrongly,of course. And he was angry...and dishonest,which he now deeply regrets. But he was somewhat remorseful from day one and as the real issues became clear, he became more so. If he hadn't been truly remorseful we would not be together today.<BR>He pushed us all away and then became lonely. And she made him"happy". What really happened is it made him nuts...and confused and questioning our 27 yr M! <P>Will he go to counseling of any kind? My H went separately for awhile and it did help him. I wish I had known about Plan A earlier on...it would have helped me and us. You keep going as best you can. Some days you'll want to hit him in the head...when you do, go over and give him a kiss.Even if you want to kill him, do it with love instead. I promise, it WILL eventually come naturally. Let's just hope he shows SOME remorse...I know they say you have to forgive but don't put too much pressure on yourself...It will take as long as it takes...I hope he will help you to forgive him...It will shorten the time. If he truly wants to be forgiven, he ought to help you do it! <BR>Is that against all the MB principles? If so, I am sorry...you just do the best you can. I feel for you and understand your feelings COMPLETELY!!<BR>PS I think they are all big babies sometimes...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bernzini:<BR><B><BR>I have just returned to my husband after a year's separation. I have spent weeks feeling like a dummy--he is really not remorseful about having an affair. He blames it on me. That was not quite the scenario I had in mind.<P>...Kinda like living with a giant 2 year old sometimes.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Here's another quote:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>It's very common for the spouse having the affair to feel unremorseful. And it's common for the victimized spouse to feel that it wasn't his or her fault, either. So when an affair has ended, and a couple is ready to rebuild their relationship, neither wants to take responsibility. They both look at each other as having been very selfish, and they look at themselves as having gone the extra mile, with nothing to show for it. Why apologize for something that was the other person's fault? <P>...S.C.'s wife is not sorry she had an affair. In fact she feels that it did her some good. She "finally did something for herself." That sure sounds like her Taker, doesn't it ...<P>Taker's don't ever apologize. But they demand it of others.<P><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>The quote above was extracted from Dr. Harley's <I>Coping with Infidelity: Part 3</I>. I have no great wisdom for you, but I wanted to let you know that what you are experiencing is very much like some of the things I've read from Dr. Harley. No doubt you know this, since I think you're a long-time MBer.<P>I don't mean to imply that any of this was your fault. I don't ever blame the BS for an affair, although I think most of us bore some responsibility for the state of the marriage before the A. But you'd think a WS at least would acknowledge some guilt. According to Dr. Harley this is often not the case.<P>Anyway my point is that just because your H is not very in touch with reality does not mean you can't have a successful recovery. He's just reading from the regular WS (or former WS) script.<P>I'm sorry it's that way, though. Hang in there!<P>Steve<p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited May 07, 2001).]

mon, Thanks for starting this thread, there's lots of good food for thought here. My H has only been home about 6 weeks after a 4 month A, which isn't very long from listening to people here. In fact, contact may be continuing since he still disappears almost every evening for a couple of hours or more and doesn't answer his pager or his cell phone. I guess it's too soon for me to get discouraged. <P>Bernzini, I understand completely the feeling of living with a giant 2 year old.<P>Steve, I'm going to remember your words that just because my H is not very in touch with reality doesn't mean we can't have a successful recovery. Is that really true??

We have been back together for about 2 months now--he left a month ago for a deployment--he's in the Marine Corps.<P>It has not been easy. I know darn well that I should keep my mouth shut about what happened, but the injustice of it all stands glaring.<P>I can't really go into all of the details of what our lives because of the nature of his job--he needs to remain as anonymous as possible. But what caused the turning point in our lives, the "reason" for his affair, was that I was in the military, too, and decided to continue my career when he told me that he was done with the military and wanted to get out. I re-enlisted and went to a new duty station, assuming that he wanted to come along. I mean, heck, we were husband and wife, right? Family? Generally, it works out like that, doesn't it? At the last minute, he too, decided to continue his career and proceeded to a military school to prepare for it. He didn't discuss this with me before it happened in any rational way. But, I thought, "Fine, we'll just be stationed together when he's done with school." The time came for us to get permanent orders together, and he turned down the option to be stationed with me after I begged him (he was seeing his girlfriend at this point.) He says that he was thinking: "Well, my wife is through with me." That's what he says NOW. He says that I ran off and abandoned him and took the kid with me. That's what he says now. (I think it's all just an excuse to justify what he did.)<P>Sorry, folks, I just don't buy that. All we had to do was talk. And throughout this whole time, I DID talk. I talked and talked and talked. And he blew me off. He ignored me. He got angry with me for "pressuring" him.<P>I did love him so much, more than life itself. He was everything to me. It's just that he would never believe it when I said it to him. He thought that I just wanted something out of him. That's what makes this so unjust. He turned to someone else to love him because he thought that I didn't, when in fact, I worked so hard to prove that I did.<P>I asked him, after the fact, what it is that I didn't do for him in the marriage. You know, what emotional needs of his that I didn't meet. Wasn't I pretty enough? Didn't I keep myself slim? Didn't I keep the house well enough? Wasn't I a good mother? Didn't I work hard enough? Didn't I tell him that I loved him enough? Didn't I give him gifts, affection, praise? He assured me that I did all of these things. I worked overtime to please him, but when I screwed up, a minor infraction caused his wrath.<P>He told me "We just don't get along. We're incompatible." <P>That's funny. I always felt that I got along with him. Obviously, he didn't get along with me.<P>This is why I don't take too much of the blame for what happened. I know that I expressed how much I loved him, wanted to be with him. I also expressed that I was irritated with him for his lack of communication and confused by his behavior, so that was a love buster, huh? To most people who are secure and mature, it would not have been. Sorry for trying to hold my insecure husband to societal norms of communication. I had no idea that he would cheat on me, ever. <P>I am forced to take the blame for all this, but what I am sure of, what in reality happened was that he had the opportunity for sex while alone in another part of the country, she wanted out of her marriage, and they "helped each other out." <P>I know what happened, but I am still trying to figure out what I "did" to cause him to have an affair.<P>And now, in order to keep my marriage to this man, I must forgive him for what "I" did. It doesn't make sense, but I have to go along with it.<P>Yeah, we have been back together for two months, and I am really trying to figure out if I did the right thing in coming back here to Japan.<P>The selfish part of me (yes, I admit that I have a selfish part of me) wonders if I will ever have to stop being the "giver," when nothing I do is ackowledged. I would like to be loved unconditionally, and I wonder when it's ever going to happen. I keep that thought to myself, or I try to.<P>All my friends complain when their husbands don't pick up their own dry cleaning, leave their socks on the floor, grumble about watching the kids for a few minutes, or don't take them out as often as they could. I say "Honey, don't fuss. You don't know how good you have it."<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LetSTry:<BR><B><BR>In fact, contact may be continuing since he still disappears almost every evening for a couple of hours or more and doesn't answer his pager or his cell phone. I guess it's too soon for me to get discouraged. <P>...Steve, I'm going to remember your words that just because my H is not very in touch with reality doesn't mean we can't have a successful recovery. Is that really true??</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, continued contact will make recovery very difficult, but you can still set the stage for it with your Plan A.<P>Some seem to get in touch with reality as recovery occurs, others seem very reluctant to embrace reality as it requires admitting how wrong they were. Then once their love bank balance is sufficiently recovered they have the pain of realizing how much they hurt someone they deeply care about. Many, if not most, would rather not think about it, or accept their own responsibility. <P>When we see the pain in our relationship, and feel the devastation of betrayal, it is easy to think all is lost. Knowing that painful and selfish behavior by the WS is common early in recovery even among those who eventually do recover helps us know that our situation is not so unusual as to be unsalvageable.<P>Do you have SAA? In one of the stories in it Sue was a WS and Jon was her H. She carried out a blatant affair including an episode where Jon found her in bed with Greg, the lover. She still claimed they were just friends! She moved out, moved back, moved out again to be with Greg. Then she got a court order forcing Jon to move out and pay her $3,000/month child support while she lived in their home!<P>Eventually, Greg found someone else. Having lost Greg, Sue was then willing to reconcile with Jon and try to work on the marriage. I'm going to quote a paragraph from SAA (bottom of page 83 in my copy):<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>After all that Sue had put Jon through, you'd think she would have returned to him humbled and deeply remorseful. Sometimes a wayward spouse does ask for forgiveness for the incredible thoughtlessness of his or her affair, but Sue didn't. In fact the way she talked to Jon about getting back together sounded as if he was the one who had had the affair. She made it seem as if he was lucky to have another chance to win her back.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>I think you'll agree that she was well out of touch with reality here! However, they had a successful recovery.<P>As I recall, Sue did eventually express gratitude to Jon, but it wasn't that way at first.<P>Hope this helps.<P>Steve<P><p>[This message has been edited by StillHers (edited May 08, 2001).]

Steve,<P>Thanks for bringing the story of Jon and Sue to this thread. I thought that I had to be married to a monster with no feelings until I read SAA and found out that my H acted out in a similar way. I particularly relate to the following:<P>"In fact the way she talked to Jon about getting back together sounded as if he was the one who had had the affair. She made it seem as if he was lucky to have another chance to win her back."<P>I perceived a lot of arrogance on my H's part when he moved back home after living with/being involved with the XOW. This was both the first and second time. The further away we get from his direct involvement with her, the more his attitude seems to have changed. My thoughts were this: up until the point where he moved back home the first time, I still held myself accountable for at least 50 percent of the problems in our marriage. Once he moved back home and I was willing to do *anything* (read: bend over backwards to get our marriage back to the point where it was before) and he still continued to see the XOW, that's when it was 100 percent his fault, to my mind. I could only sit back and get hit by the emotional shrapnel.<P>But I get the feeling that he still perceives the 100 percent that he gave toward killing our marriage (after he moved back home and we were allegedly reconciling) as something he did "because" of me - in other words, I feel that he thinks that I was responsible for his actions. I recently told him that I would take responsibility for his actions if he did everything I told him to do, right down to the letter.<P>I noticed a very brief but pause in the conversation at that point. If you knew my H, you'd realize how poignant a pause in the conversation can be. It's very difficult to get a word in edgewise with him.<P>belld <BR>