Do you think affaires hurt the children in very religious families more?<P>In my case our church life for most of the time was the center of our lives, our friends were from church, our social life was from church, we went to services 3 times a week, both my H & taught Bible classes, my OS was very involved in the youth group, had worked in the puppet ministry, was the young man that the younger kids looked up to, was excepted to be the leader of the youth group, my son would pray at night heart felt prayers, his best friend was from church,<P>But my H's A torn at the foundations of my OS's life, I didn't really relaize how much till this weekend, but everything my son was taught was destroyed by his father's adulteress behavior. My son when asked who was the most influence person in your life, even last yr respond our church, he idolized his dad, his dad was hero, I had encouraged him in that belief.<P>Now these very things are destroying him, he is rejecting Christianity, doesn't believe that his father has the right to tell him right from wrong, thinks all Christians are hypocrites, etc.<P>Would his hurt been as great if we had not been so religious? Would it be easier for him to bear if the foundations of his life had not been built on Christians principals?<BR>

Hi sing! I can't answer your question from the perspective of how it is influencing your OS, but am in a similar situation in that we are also very involved in our church. My H was a deacon/treasurer in our church when he started his A. Almost all of our friends are from our church, we went to Bible study groups, and in general were very involved. Because of his A, my H had to resign from the Council, and many people in our small groups, etc were told about the A because we needed the support and chose to tell them. I do not regret that decision, but it does make it hard and uncomfortable to go to church.<P>To answer your question, I don't think the hurt would be any less, but it is much harder when you idolize someone for their beliefs and you find out everything that you thought they stood for was a lie.<BR>

I think that although it is a hard thing for your OS, it is also a teaching moment!<P>A teaching moment of what is right and wrong, but about forgiveness and love. I think a lot of how the kids will learn to deal with this is a result of how YOU deal with it and how you model love and forgiveness.<P>TnT

I think the heart of the matter is that OS has seen people with strong religious convictions assume a sort of moral superiority...a moral "high ground" if you will.<P>While this is harmless in most regards, and helpful in some, it becomes a bane when very religious people make very human mistakes.<P>It is a very long fall from such a high ground! You see, your OS has probably been taught that somehow a serious devotion to Christianity makes one morally superior to "everyone else." There is an in-group morality that pervades almost every religious faith: the notion that "we (and no one else) walk the straight and narrow path to salvation" is often shattered when a respected member of the church community is exposed as less-than-righteous.<P>What you need to explain to OS is that one person giving in to temptation does not invalidate the whole faith. Are there Christians who are hypocrites? You bet! Falwell, Bakker, Roberts, Tilton, etc. are the most visible examples, and there are members of every church who do not follow the lessons they hear every Sunday. Yet the actions of these people have no impact on the validity of Biblical teachings. The Bible contains some of the most poignant essays on morality, faith, and goodness that the world has ever known. The same applies to the teachings contained in the Koran, the Vedas, the teachings of Buddha, and others. <P>Just because one of the faithful falls off the path does not mean that the faith itself is flawed!<P>What your OS has done is mistakenly attribute a quality to Christians that is really just a general human flaw. People make mistakes. Even people that we have been told are "good" people. One of my heroes was Carl Sagan. His gift for conveying the incredible wonder of the universe got me interested in astronomy, which opened my eyes to the true grandeur of the universe. He exposed not only myself, but millions of people to the wonders of science. <P>Yet he left his wife for another woman. He had an affair. Not only that, but he quickly married the OW, and spent the rest of his life with her!<P>I have had to reconcile my feelings for him since my own divorce. I've realized that like my Ex-wife, he was human, and subject to the temptations we all face. That has nothing to do with the simple beauty and power of the words he wrote. The things I learned from him still apply whether I agree with his life choices or not. Your OS needs to separate the lessons from the people who have taught them.<P><BR>

<B>sing - </B> In a word(actually, two), <B>NO WAY</B>. In fact, from what I've observed, those with a strong religious faith, whether Christian or not, tend to deal with adversity better because they have their faith. Religious people many times say "Well, I'll leave it in God's hands" or "I know God has a purpose in this happening to me". Those of us that are not religious(I vary between agnostic, pagan and atheist) are left to deal with adversity on our own. I am often lead to admire the way religious people deal with tragedy in productive and positive ways. Strong faith in either a Creator or just in oneself can produce miraculous results.<P>I think that it is presumptious to presume that non-religious people have weaker moral values, lesser feelings or feel less betrayed. I would stack my moral values and standards against any and every religious person here and come out average or a little above the average. Most of the Ten Commandments are less a Judeo-Christian directive than simply a statement of basic <I>human</I> values and ideals that we are born with.<P>Your OS would probably be rejecting anything that he saw was a foundation of your H's life. If he were a teacher, he would probably have the view that all teachers were hypocrites and that schooling was worthless. Same thing if your H had been a Captain in the Navy. OS would probably project those negative universalities on the military. Bottom line is that OS has had one of his strongest support pillars removed from him. It is natural that, at least for a while, he blames the occupation of the builders of that pillar.<P>I guess I'm just trying to say that affairs hurt <B>all</B> of the victims regardless of race, creed, profession, religious conviction or whatever.<P><BR>[Soapbox mode off]<P>--DeWayne--

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning.<P>WAT

Oh yeah, <B>cjack</B>, just wanted to tell you that Mr. Sagan was one of my true heroes, too. I was fortunate enough to attend a lecture of his in the fall of 1974 at Iowa State University. He was touring the country debunking Erich VonDaniken's "Ancient Astronauts" claims and books. Carl reeled me in hook, line and sinker and I even joined the Planetary Society because of him. I've avidly read every book he published and even some of is scientific papers.<P>You are right, he was simply a human being with all of our flaws and we cannot judge his actions nor can we know the complete circumstances of what happened. But it certainly doesn't change my admiration for what he did for space science and science in general...<P>--DeWayne--

Interesting. . .<P>Not that this has to do with anything, but didn't Stephen Hawking, tho wheelchair bound, leave his wife for his nurse? What is it with brilliant people?<P>I never knew that about Carl Sagan. . . I have to say that I am a little disappointed.<P>Infidelity hurts all families, Christian or no. <P>I have an interesting situation. I am Christian, and will never deny that, ever. I love my religion.<P>My husband is an atheist. He won't deny that, either.<P>I try to understand his beliefs, although he will not discuss them readily. He feels defensive, I guess.<P>It does not bother me TOO much (just a little) that he doesn't share my religion. I can't explain why in any way that would make sense. I am sure that it would upset a lot of people were I to try.<P>I remember watching a documentary on Charles Darwin, someone that I happen to think was a brilliant scientist. Something touched me--it was Darwin lying on his deathbed, attended by his beloved wife, who was also a devout Christian. He was upset because he was was certain that he would never see her again after he died, there being no life after death. Nevertheless, he believed what he believed. And they had lived a life of love.<P>This doesn't have anything to do with anything, either, I guess. I am just thinking that it does not matter what your religion and your belief in a diety, betrayal by someone you love devestates all the same.<p>[This message has been edited by Bernzini (edited May 08, 2001).]

<B>sing</B>,<P>I don't know if the effect on Christian families is more...the potential for destroying not only the family but also children's ideals may be greater, as you describe. However, as Christians we should have a stronger foundation that even our family, although I haven't always lived up to this as well as I'd like. Those without faith don't have much left if their family is destroyed.<P>In keeping with the theme of disillusionment, my wife was busy teaching Sunday school while having her affair . This didn't affect my faith, but certainly made me question hers.<P>As Christians, though, we aren't to place our faith in other people. The paradox is that God views us as valuable enough for Christ to die for despite being so flawed as to require that sacrifice. There are many Biblical stories illustrating good choices which we do well to emulate, but all heroes there are flawed, from David's adultery to Peter's denial.<P>For the Christian, Jesus as God come to earth is the hero and all others require forgiveness. Perfect people can't be Christians since Christians require God's forgiveness. This is not an easy lesson, especially for kids, but it is the New Testament teaching.<P>Anyway, I'm certainly sorry for your pain, and for the effect of all this mess on your son. I hope that in time he will come to have peace replace his disillusionment.<P>Steve<P>

Dear Sing,<P>This hard lesson in your life and that of your children is to learn that our faith with God is an individual one. My father would periodically ask me (while I was growing up), where my faith would be if he and my mother were to leave their faith. That was a hard question, my father started asking me that from the time I was about 9 years old. <P>I resented him asking at first and even cried. Then he gently took me in his arms to let me know that his question was to make me strong. He encouraged me to build my personal relationship with God. As young as I was, my father would teach me. Each year he would ask the same question and each year after that I would answer with greater conviction, that I would base my beliefs on my faith. While my parents controlled how I was raised while I lived at home, they always encouraged me to be able to understand my faith and be able to explain then defend my faith. <P>I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It pains me greatly so see my H break God's law on the sanctity of marriage. My H respects my beliefs but is not a Witness. To this day, I remember my father's words and do understand my faith, explain and defend it as Jesus commanded in the Bible. I do not preach down people's throats as some may think. I respect an individual's right to have their own beliefs. The message I share is just that a message. Each can receive it as they choose. I have chosen to raise my son in the same way. In time, he will make a personal choice how he will believe. <P>So Sing, please encourage your son not to put his faith in men as written in Psalm 146:3, but instead put his trust and faith in God. That is a guaranteed example. Tell your son that maybe one day, his dad can be the example that he should be. We can only hope. <P>L.<BR>

I think it can go both ways.<P>In our case, we were both very involved in church until h. started his affair (which was triggered by his intense depression at the loss of his parents).<P>We both have sung in church since early childhood. During his A., h. started making excuses to miss choir practice because he knew I'd be there for a couple of hours which he could spend with OW either on the phone or in person.<P>This has certainly affected my Christian life...I was furious with God for allowing this to happen while I was (I thought) serving him by being at church. <P>I also am a soloist and was a member of the worship ensemble. Now I feel I cannot participate until and unless he does, because I don't want him to be resentful again of my church life or have the opportunity to create another life apart from our family, like he did before. <P>He attends church with us regularly, but believes now that if God is there, He isn't big enough to forgive. H is overwhelmed with guilt for all the betrayal of his professed beliefs and the way he betrayed me while I innocently went off to church functions without him.<P>OTOH, when we completed 12 months of affair recovery therapy, I asked our counselor why she thought our marriage was now doing so well. She had two reasons, 1) 17 happy pre-affair years and 2) my deep Christian faith that the kids and I would be ok with or without h.<P>lizzie's nickel's worth for the day<P>still his POGP (pearl of great price)

A dangerous mindset if you ask me...<P>Do you think you hurt more than I do?<P>Probably not when I put it in those very personal terms. But when you suggest that Christians hurt more than others you suggest that you hurt more than I do.<P>There are many factors influencing the amount of pain each of us feels. And spirituality is one of those factors, but it is impossible to say, for example, that Christians have it worst, then Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Pagans...<P>Unfortunately, we are all united in pain here.<P>Blessings.<BR>--HBC

Thanks <B>HBC, </B> you put it better and more succinctly than I did....<P>--DeWayne--

Maybe the christianity and being part of a church is what motivates some to want to do everything possible to try to work things out. Anybody can make a mistake. What if being a part of a religion and having family ingrained into a person is what stops them from throwing in the towel. I don't know just a thought?

Sorry, <B>ImSoSorry</B>, I'm not religious, but I have a very strong sense of family and I didn't end up throwing in the towel, either....<P>--DeWayne--

I think most of ya'll missed what I was asking but I don't all ways express my thoughts very clearly either. I think I headed it wrong also, if some of you had read what I wrote you might have understood what I was trying to ask. <P>I never meant to say Christians vs. non-Christians hurt more, it is/was the disillusionment of children that I was wondering about?<P>I didn't mean to offend any of you, like I would guess you didn't mean to offend me.<P>Only Still Hers seem to get the point, does my son hurt more because it just wasn't his father cheating on him mom, but not living up to the teachings he taught. Yes, everyone sins, my son know this, & that you can be forgiven but I feel my son felt betrayed on more than just one front. <P>One lesson I have learned from this is don't teach your children to look up to anyone. My son was taught to look up to his dad, I didn't believe their was a finer man in the world than him, I told my son to look to the church for his heroes not sports stars.<P>I thought I taught a good lesson on this back when the Rockets won their 1st NBA championship. You have to be a Houstonian to understand the impact that series, championship had on the city. Like every other little boy in the Houston area the Rockets were the thing, while I wouldn't take my son to the victory parade, a few days latter Hakem was appearing at the Galleria Dillard’s, for free autographs (I don't believe in paying athletes for the autograph, nor will I let my son harass them in public places, &he has had the chance or asking people who have access to them for autographs). I let my son talk me into taking him, got a babysitter for YS & we left at like 8 for the store opening at 10, by the time we drove parked it was 9, the line was unbelievable long, shortly after we got in line with my son clutching his SI copy of the rockets winning the championship, security comes along & tells everyone where we were to leave as we never get in the store. My son was naturally very disappointed, but we ended having a nice morning by going to the at that time new Butterfly Center & we had this wonderful talk about heroes, I pointed out that Hakem had a child out of wedlock, that while he was now a devout Muslim, that his lifestyle wasn't what I wanted for my son, of course at that time Vernon Maxwell was still with the team & you could always use him as how not to look up at sports figures, but I told my son that the heroes were men like his dad, & then several others from our church who donate their time for things.<P>This was what I meant by do affaires hurt the children from very religious homes more. My H didn't just cheat on me, he torn the foundation out of son's world.<P>But like I said I didn't mean to offend anyone, I worded the heading wrong, & didn't express myself well. Sorry.<BR>

Thank you for the explanation, sing. I'm sorry I responded to the wrong question.<P>The question you were really asking is an interesting one.<P>I'm betting that children who are genuinely being taught morals by their parents (as opposed to the unfortunate many who seem to get their information only from school or a religious school of which their parents are not a part) may have a more difficult time than others, regardless of whether the context in which they are being taught is ostensibly religious. An example of a non-religious context might be scouting.<P>Why? Because their father or mother is involved with their peer group and is an acknowleged teacher of many. To have anyone, let alone a parent, put forth a "do what I say, not what I do" attitude must be devastating to a young mind.<P>Again, I apologize for answering the wrong question, sing. Hang in there. We're all going to do okay.<P>Blessings.<BR>--HBC

<B>sing</B>,<P>You do make a good point about the sports heros. I certainly remember the Rockets championships, although my older son was too young to be that into it and I'm not sure my younger one was born yet.<P>We tend to be more Astros fans, and although guys like Biggio and Bagwell seem to be pretty good guys like Hakeem, I'm sure that they too have feet of clay. "Mad Max" OTOH is <B>entirely</B> made of clay .<P>Maybe for the Christian a better option is teaching lessons of how peoples' good and bad choices affected their lives in Biblical stories. Sad though to not be able to point to their dad or mom as an example .<P>Maybe in time they can be an example of repentance and restoration, though.<P>Again, I'm sorry for the painful personal context this has for you, but I'm glad that you raised a very thought provoking question.<P>Steve

Steve,<P>Thanks for your kind words.<P>Hey I like the Astros, especially Biggio and Bagwell. I keep up with them daily, they were even on tv here last wk & will be agin next MOn, oh joy in Singapore for me!<P>Thanks for understanding what I was trying to say, I feel like I was writing in Singish & no one could understand me, sort how my southern/Tennessee accent is understood here, oh the stories I could tell.<P>I think you are right about teaching about good & bad choices, my OS is learning that now. I am learning that they are his choices & I can't keep tearing myself apart for the choices he makes. <P>Thanks again Steve.

Sing, Just want to relay my experience to you, although I am not far enough along (just found out). This weekend was a mess, because I found a lot of clues while my husband was out of town. I feel apart. Although I made it to women's prayer Saturday morning, I was unable to go to church Sunday. Thank God he led me to this site, because the supportive people here are the best. Now, I do not have hard proof yet that my husband has been unfaithful, but I do have alot of evidence. I spoke to my sister about my fears, and she suggested that I let him have it when he got home, just attack him with my suspicions. I knew in my heart that I couldn't do that, that it would be wrong. Finally, after some foolish behavior Sunday night, I prayed to God and repented of my behavior and thoughts. I have remained in prayer since.<P>When my husband returned Tuesday evening, I welcomed him with open arms and tremendous love. When we got home, I got on my knees and asked him to forgive me for being a selfish person and a thoughtless wife (trust me, I was lousy!). He acted surprised, but very happy. For the first time in our lives together, I have put his needs above mine as a submissive wife should. We have a long road ahead of us, because I know that any details of infidelity must come out before we can truly be healed, but my pastor has advised me to remain quiet about my suspicions, and love this man with all my heart.<P>We are both in leadership at our church, and my husband is a doctor. His job places him in a position of authority over men and women, and I know that power is very attractive to some of the women he works with. Because of my neglect, he was left vulerable to any positive response he could get, and I am certain that this is where any infidelity has started from. I suspect that it is mainly a sexual release, because I know that he loves and adores me. Now the hard work. I pray to God every morning to make me aware of my actions and to bless me with even more love for this man. I pray that God will give my husband clarity and confidence at work, and I rebuke any evil force that would try to detroy our relationship in the name of Jesus Christ. I feel that I have taken power of this situation, and that is what truly gets me through the day.<P>You are in my thoughts and prayers.