<B>belld</B>,<P>Oh, I see you were posting right when I was. I didn't peek at the answer first, honest .<P>Good, thought provoking question.<P>Steve

Maybe we should make up business cards with the MB website address, so we could hand them to all in need.<P>you could always say, you know, I have been where you are, & I don't want you to have the pain that I have, go read this site & others, talk to your spouse, good luck.

I've been the one looking for help. I asked a coworker, who I'd grown close to, for advice. But only because I knew (from previous conversations) that he and his wife had endured a lot during the course of their marriage and had come through it with a stronger bond and a better marriage (what we all want, right?).<P>He was kind and listened and gave me good advice and continues to do so. The VERY important thing here is that he freely shared everything with his wife and she has been a pillar of support also. Great team-work on their part, I think. <P>I am female and the BS.<P>Snow

Belld, you never fail to make me 'think'. <BR>I am BS, female. My H has said conversations (afterhours, alone) with OW would begin with business related topics and then progress to family. When told that her H was basically a couch potato, going to another room to watch TV, leaving her alone, he told her that he was the same way. H feels he dodged the insight into her situation and I feel that he made a statement about ours. <BR>I would probably answer this as the majority, B, after A<BR>L

Bell.....I can agree with you up to a point. But of course human beings don't fit that neatly into little boxes. In my case, the friendship developed first, and indeed it was a pure friendship, in fact we thought each was more or less satisfied with their marriage (the masks we all wear...*sigh*). As the friendship grew to a romantic attraction (as it most certainly would have if both single), then we started talking more about our marriages, and what did our developing feelings mean. We discussed this endlessly, thinking we were being responsible, but what we were doing (in hindsight) was becoming emotionally connected on a level equivalent to marriage. And since we are both in seriously emotionally disconnected marriages (withdrawal for decades), eventually we had to deal, with the reality of feeling marital feelings for each other, but married to other people. Which is where we are now, we are ceasing interacting, and will either (one of both of us) repair our marriages, or divorce, so we can look in the mirror again. Is an agonizing place to be, and rises of course from pursuing a "friendship" with a married person. I (and she) thought we could do this, that it was possible, we were wrong. It would be so much easier when one realizes the op is some kind of loser (as you implied), but this is not always the case. It is not always fog, or neediness, of being used, sometimes it is true friendship, and more. Neither of us will do anything like this again, but the experience has been a hard lesson, painful for all, me, her, my wife, and eventually her husband I imagine, who senses but does not know, so is affected anyways. So I guess my situation is not quite how you set-up, but the principal is similar, one should avoid emotional focusing on an opposite gender individual, whether as the listener or the talker. Is a recipe for disaster. In this case not only am I the listener, but also the talker. Am I a bad friend? Sometimes I think so, I don't mean to be. I do want the best for her, not to possess her, I "felt" like she needed me, and that gets mixed up in what is love. Perhaps this happening is for the best, has forced a hard look at our marriages, both by us, and our spouses. There is no way to really know the ultimate outcome. But it would be wrong to continue the secrecy and try to live in 2 worlds, and we are not, so I would like to think we are at least responsible to some extent. From the standpoint of the BS, and what does this all mean, only this, that one should never take marriage for granted...that emotional honesty should be the "need" at the top of everyone's needs list, both as the taker and the giver. I had an idea, but no real conception of how vulnerable, and how lonely I was, my wife should have known that (and she did sort of, but ignored it mostly), as well as I, and we should have dealt with it.

S&N,<P>To be fair, I can understand your logic. I think the reason why it's called the "Fog" is because at some point the WS doesn't really acknowledge the point at which a so-called "friendship" becomes a mutual deceit-fest against the BS. Sometimes gossip, complaints, slander, not keeping one's own counsel, or whatever the BS might call it becomes the "glue" that holds the WS and the OP together. Not healthy at all. How can this possibly be called a friendship, when the sole focus is the betrayal of the WS?<P>There are certain behaviors that are clearly inapropos. I would never think about sharing "female problems" with a male friend. I would no longer even dream of inviting an ex-lover over to dinner with me and my H. These things are obviously outrageous, from a social standpoint, and hurtful to a marriage. So is the sharing of marital information with an opposite-sex friend, in the same capacity. However, because it takes place in such a slow, surreptitious manner, I don't think that many WS fully acknowledge when the line in the sand has been crossed.<P>belld

Belld-<BR>One thing I disagree with is this <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I've read many posts from WS alledging that the OP was a good friend. A loyal friend. Someone who had their best interests at heart. But obviously, then, this cannot be; a true, loyal friend would not even listen to the marital problems of a opposite-sex friend.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Based on your survey you should change the word "would" to "should." The majority of your survey said they would not do this AFTER the A, but might have done it before. <P>

B<P>I'm BS

Belldandy, <P>I read your question yesterday but didn’t answer. I couldn’t figure why the question bothered me so much and why I was having trouble answering so I decided to think about it for awhile. I understand your logic and the point you were trying to make. However, for the sake of playing devil’s advocate let me point out that most said that pre-affair they would have sat and listened to the other person and tried to be a friend. It is only in hindsight that they can see the dangers in doing something like that. You said, “I've read many posts from WS alleging that the OP was a good friend. A loyal friend. Someone who had their best interests at heart. But obviously, then, this cannot be; a true, loyal friend would not even listen to the marital problems of a opposite-sex friend.” My point is just this, we are all human. Part of what makes many people special is the empathy they can show for another person. When you hear someone who is in pain it is human nature to what to try to help them in anyway you can. Even if that means being a listening ear. It’s very hard to stop someone when you hear his or her obvious pain and say, “wait a minute this isn’t appropriate, talk to someone who can really help you.” To say that may make you seem cold and callous. Also sometimes a person is in so much pain that they don’t know who to talk to, all they want is anybody to be a listening ear. It happens. I agree that a person who is having problems should go to marriage builders or a counselor, I’ve even suggested it to others before. However, I don’t think that every person who sits down and listens to a member of the opposite sex who is having problems has designs on stealing the person away from his/her spouse. <P>

I see the poll has ended, I'm still going to answer.<P>I'm female, been both the BS & WS, in recovery about a year now. I'm very accountable with any conversations or encounters with men.<P>Last fall, my H's cousin called me. This couple married the same summer as we did, 2 kids like us, we've camped together, I'd consider him a friend as well as a relative. His wife wanted a separation. I had talked to her earlier in the summer and just had the feeling, though no knowledge that she was either having or about to have an affair. So, he calls me to see what he can do. Certainly, he could have called his own cousin, my H? He didn't want to know what was happening from the separating spouse view, he wanted it from the one who'd been left (me). I did listen, I asked some questions, and gave him the name of our counselor...and told him that my H really would understand some of what the cousin was going through. <P>He asked me to lunch. I said that no offense to him, but I don't have lunch with men without my H. He was a little offended I think. Never called me again, my H or the counselor. And I ran into him last month, he said they are divorcing. I would love to help them, but I'm not the appropriate person to deal with him alone. Sad, true. And, I already spent some hours talking to her...she's not listening...

This is sort of a response to some of the posters who said pre-EMR A, post-EMR B. <P>This whole issue, I feel, depends on how one was taught to interact with members of the opposite sex as a child. I can say, honestly, that my response would have always been B or something like it. Actually, pre-EMR, I would have probably tried to reroute the conversation or made an excuse to leave the lunch because I would have felt uncomfortable with the conversation and the person. I then would have avoided the person after that. My upbringing as a Brethren (one of the three peace churches, Amish, Mennonite, Brethren, to give you some idea) was very clear about what was appropriate behavior. We had our own "culture" in which it was scandalous if a MP approached another MP or SP of the opposite gender and spoke of such personal things. So this never an issue when I was younger. I always expected that "decent" people didn't have such inappropriate conversations.<P>*But.* They do. Thankfully, because of what I was taught as a child with respect to the appropriateness factor of this kind of interaction, I was never sucked into a situation like this. I always instinctively knew that whenever a MM approached me with problem about his marriage that he was out of bounds and being socially inappropriate - it was sort of this nebulous feeling of, "This person is doing something wrong/sinful." Now, post-EMR, I can see it from another context and finally know *why* I was taught to avoid these kinds of situations - because they are so very detrimental to a marriage, which should be respected and kept private between two people. I was taught, "Just don't do it." So I never did. <P>But now I finally realize *why* I was taught this - the motive of the church and my community.<P>A real eye-opener.<P>belld

bell, <P>the answer is b. <P>i have alot to say about this i think you know that, but I am a big supporter of the men and women cant be friends front there is just to much at risk. I am not all that confident that same sex friendships should include this discussion either.<P>i know that in my MIL situation the "Advice" she got from her bitter friends lead her to divorce her husband of 35 years so that they would have yet another running mate. she is very sorry she listened. <P>the optimum conversation about these things is between H and W but as i am sure many have experianced the balance of power in Marriage is out of balance in many cases and the WS often feel powerless in the relationship even when the BS in hindsite says they would have recieved the information, if it were really that easy it would happen.<P>there is a lot of lipservice about the fog that the WS is in during and after the affair, what about the fog the BS is in before??