Hi,<BR>Just fishing for ideas. No, I am the BS. I was just wondering in all your experiences what have you seen or heard the OP tell your WS to either try to keep them or control them?<P>I'll start:<P>1. On a voicemail just last week after H broke up and came home: <P>OW: "We are family, remember that. You & I are family."<P>OW: "I was the one who encouraged you to take that 2nd job.<BR>You really owe me that money, not your wife."<P>2. In an e-mail earlier this year.<P>OW: "To start a life with me WS, you must disconnect<BR>from 'your wife & son'. It has not been successful<BR>with you being exposed to them and then coming to me<BR>with your emotional disabilities. Eighty percent of<BR>our problems stems from 'your wife & son's' immaturity<BR>about your wishes. I'm sorry, but that's the truth<P>If you cannot do this, but still want to pursue me, <BR>then your option is to have 'W' write a formal apology <BR>to me for "deliberately" trying to hurt me. She must also <BR>promise that she will not contact you or I in the future, <BR>unless it is a bonified emergency. She must promise to <BR>make it a clean communication, not one manipulated with <BR>hidden headgames/twisted words, or with 'Son' calling <BR>you on your cell, turning her words into his own, as she <BR>has done in the past. She must also vow to not use other <BR>people to get to you or I. These must be specifically <BR>worded as such." <P>Oh, I could go on. You get the idea. Anyone game?<P>L.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited May 10, 2001).]

Oh, Orchid. (Sigh.)<P>Where to begin? Well, there was an email to my H where she told him something to the effect of (and I'm paraphrasing here, okay?),"I hope you get away from ________ and find someone who will treat you right." That floored me. All I ever did throughout our entire marriage was try to treat my H right. No, I wasn't perfect; who is? Hmmm, what else? She lied to him. He thought she was in college, getting her degree. But the P.I. I hired found out that she was just a clerk in the division that she claimed to be studying in and that she was definitely not enrolled. So I'm sure that she lied about a lot of other things too. The biggest manipulation was her sending me anonymous emails (I just know it was her - I set up a special email account) and then sending me a letter and every single scandalous detail. I'm sure she hoped that I would toss my H out. You know, I wanted to. But I was not going to give her the pleasure. No way. No way. No way.<P>The rest of it was very insidious - doing the, "Oh, you poor thing" compassionate act that she had going was the most manipulative of all. She didn't stop him from talking about me to her - she let him divulge every juicy detail and apparently critiqued our marriage, as though she had any freaking idea what was *really* going on. She said she was going to back out, then she came bopping right back in, rarin' to go. It was almost like a game, now that I think about it. "Okay ... I'll go away ... oh, what, you need me? Okay, I'm here again. No, I better go and let you and your W work things out. What, you want me? OKAY!" Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. <P>Funny, but I was completely out of control of my own life and I had no control over where my marriage was going; I don't feel that my H didn't have control over where his life was going or our marriage. The only person who *did* have control was the XOW. <P>And she controlled him - she controlled *us* - very, very, *very* well. He has no idea how much she controlled the dynamic of our marriage, he was too mixed up. But then again, he allowed it. I'm not just blaming her. He could have - and *should* have - told her to sod off, that our marriage was none of her business.<P>belld

Orchid,<P>Oh does the OW ever control my H.<P>1.Last summer before he left to come here, he wrote a beautiful moving letter of repentance to be read aloud at our former church, I know he would have never written that if he wasn't convinced it was over with her, but she did something that pulled him back in (think she told she was pregnant, he has mentioned once that they were afraid she might be, but it was something else)<P><BR>2.money, she needs it so, she is broke because of him, she left her H, now can't afford to live, I don't know why she get so little from him, now my H is torn between households neither one can survive without his input<P>3. Their love is so complete <P>4. He has sacrificed so much for those boys, it is time to think of himself, that is what parents do <P>5. She needs him. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by sing (edited May 09, 2001).]

sing, re:<P>"2.money, she needs it so, she is broke because of him, she left her H, now can't afford to live, I don't know why she get so little from him, now my H is torn between households neither one can survive without his input"<P>Poor thing. I mean that, of course, with all due sarcasm.<P>belld

belld,<P>you mean you don't pity the poor sweet young thing, that had to live with her parents for awhile, that even though she divoced her XH 2 yrs ago when A began, my H is still married (hey maybe not for long but we still are married)& her XH is either remarried already or has a very serious SO, & is fighting with them over money for her D.<P>Now how can you not feel sorry for such a person, NOT!<P>[This message has been edited by sing (edited May 09, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by sing (edited May 09, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by sing (edited May 09, 2001).]

The OW in my case was good at this too:<P>#1: I lost everything for you (she was married and the one that got caught)<P>#2: You promised you would never leave me<P>#3: If you go home nothing will change there, you could not have been happy there or we wouldn't have found each other.<P>#4: I have no place to go, no money, no friends or family here.<P>#5: You told me you loved me<P>Blah Blah Blah<P>However she was just keeping him on a string while she talked her husband into letting her move back home, insurance that she would not be alone I guess.<P>Now that the fog has lifted, he recognizes all her messages were about her and what would happen to her. He doesn't remember too much concern about him or his family.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by mrsaxxeman (edited May 09, 2001).]

This is sort of OT, but while my H was engaged with the XOW and living with her, there was a man who was trying very, very valiantly to get *me* involved with him. I didn't realize it at first, of course. I thought he was just trying to help me out.<P>I have to admit, these people (OP) are very good with the "hook." It starts off subtle - you know, the "I'll be your friend, you can tell me anything" thing. Buddy-buddy. They "listen" (probably while contemplating last night's episode of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' or whatever, can't be too interesting to hear a MP go on about their woes), and then they move in for the kill very stealthily. They say somber things like, "You're such a good person, you don't deserve that kind of treatment ..." Yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah, doorstop, turnip truck, parsnip, etc.<P>Then they start subtly insulting the spouse. If you insult the spouse, they agree. They are very good at goading you into insulting the spouse, even when you don't really want to talk about it. Then they grow bolder and just *outright* insult the spouse. It doesn't have to be anything blatant, like name-calling; in fact, the snarkier the better. If they go too far, they know that the distressed married person they're trying to seduce might actually do something like, oh, *defend* the spouse (like I did my H). It was like a blast in the face with a power hose.<P>As soon as I heard this nonsense, I knew what was going on. But for someone who is less astute, I can see how they could be very easily manipulated into "going there." A miserable married person is apparently quite easy to control.<P>belld

OW told H when he said he didn't feel right about day trips with her, that it was ridiculous to feel that way. I see that as manipulation.<P>H says she 'resented' me, told our C that he is 80% sure she felt that way about me. <P>That really brings questions to my mind. If this was just a business friendship, why would she resent me? H says it was my lifestyle, not having to work unless I wanted to, having time for hobbies and art. H says everyone has people they just don't like, This one is still a topic of discussion and H's assignment for our next session: C wants him to know how she got that perception. L

apparently, She tells him what I do not do. She dose not call you. She dose not do this or that. He told me once because of her he will still in the marriage. Bull scape! She helps us with our marriage. Bull scrap!.

1. I dont know what I will do with out you.<P>2. I am here all alone.<P>3. You have done so much for me ... how can I make it with out you?<P>4. I have waited for you.<P>5. You never really loved me <P>6. What was it the sex<P>7. You lied to me......<P>8. I am sorry for calling you a name .... I know its your wife that makes you this way<P>Big time manipulator. And I feel bad about calling her a itch every 15 - 20 minutes of my day. Go Figure

Well OM has told my W the following things that I know of:<P>1. Left on her cell phone voice mail - "Hello beautiful. I love you sooo much. I am so hurt that I can't talk to you right now, because I miss you and love you so so much" (someone help keep me from putting my finger down my throat)<P>2. "If you need any money, I'll will support you"<P>3. "If he (me) does anything to hurt you, I will come down there (over 800 miles) and take care of it" (I have NEVER touched my wife in an agressive manner - EVER)<P>4. "My first wife left me because she didn't want to have kids - after she had already had two"<P>5. "I'm leaving my second wife because she is mean to my kids"<P>6. "I'm trying to get relocated to your city and state"<P>7. And the one that started the whole A back in October 2000 - "You are the only person I have ever truly loved in my life" (He was a Senior in HS and she was a Freshman over 20 years ago).<P>S&C

I just re-read Orchid's post, and I'm still reeling. Does anyone want to pitch into a fund to send her H's OW to Humanity 101 classes?<P>Unbelievable. (Shaking head ...)<P>belld

Ok, it gets better. I will put the paragraph in that post that preceeds it so you get a better picture. <P>Give me a few minutes. <P>done...<P>L.<p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited May 10, 2001).]

how about ,"even if we can not stay together in this world, we will be together for eternity. or better yet, I can be a better mother to your children than your wife. Or how about the classic, you were married too young, you should have never married your wife, you and I were meant to be togetherr, aren't you glad our destiny is happenig? I HATE that PSYCHO WHORE!

1. The wind keeps throwing us together.<P>2. You are my best friend and always will be. You can't take that away from me.<P>3. She (me) will never forgive you and will throw this (A) in your face the rest of your life.<P>4. to me in an email: Tell your husband that I am pregnant and if he doesn't cooperate with me I will use it against him. (she wasn't, of course)<P>5. I just want respect. When I call him at work and he hangs up it's disrespectful. I want respect and if you don't respect me I will never stop calling. (huh????)<P>6. Showed up at my house and tried to tell me how maybe we could all be friends!!! After I explained that this didn't just involve the 2 of them. There are step children involved and other family members to consider. When she suggested we all be friends I said: "Maybe we can get together at holidays and have a family reunion every summer!"<P>7. Nobody knows you like I do.<P>8. You're just being manipulated by other people like your wife and counselor and you just can't see it.<P><BR>I could write a book...... they go on forever!!! I don't think she will ever go away and once in awhile she pushes just the right button and gets her "foot" in the door and we start ALL over!!!!<P><BR>ARGGGHHHHH

I was (am still?) referred to as the 'terror woman' by the OW to my H. She would never use my real name, only that phrase. And she would constantly tell him that "your W doesn't know what she's missing. She was stupid to throw a man like you out. I would never do something like that. You're a real man.".<P>One thing that I noticed in their emails to each other, was that our children were NEVER brought up. She's obviously smart enough to realize that they are a driving point for him to want to work things out with me, so if she doesn't mention them, then he can't have time to think about them, and the family life he's missing out on.<P>What a manipulative wench she is! AUGH!

How about... "a man with such a tender heart needs a woman who understands" BLECH!! Or, "don't try to hide it from me, I know you are unhappy (with your wife). I can see it in your eyes" DOUBLE BLECH!!! Then, "when are you going to tell your wife about us?" obviously certain I'd kick his butt out.

How did all of you find this stuff out? Did the WS spouse tell you? I only found out *some* of the things they discussed with respect to our marriage because the XOW sent me buckets of their emails. I'm sure that she left out the ones where she came across as being particularly malevolent. What I read was painful enough. I'm sure it was much worse. Sometimes I'm glad I don't know ... but I know that there will always be questions until I do know.<P>belld

Well, if H is corresponding on your home computer, you can load in software that records everything. Previous threads make recommendations. Some e-mails (like hotmail) are stored on your C drive temp internet files. <P>Do you really want to know? That is an individual decision. How to know are where suggestions can be made. Just be aware of the consquences!!!!<P>L.

Ok here is the latest to add to this growing list. <P>Just heard 2 messages from OW that she left for H. <P>1st message from OW this evening: Thanks for spending all day for 3 days this past week with OW. Need to let W know. <P>2nd message from OW about 30 minutes later: If your W is listening to these messages maybe she would like to hear your voice in the taped messages Ow has. <P>Arrrgh...... H says he was never with her, says he was at work. H can prove that with job orders. Guess she has been saving his voicemail messages. Hm.... Can we say blackmail?!?!?!? <P>Now the bad part. I deleted those messages. H knows I am not lying. Couldn't make up something like this if I tried. Yet proof is gone. Gonna let it go for now. <P>Ok, needed to get that out. Whew feels better. Where is that LB Fairie??? Hot job!!! Calling LB...<P>Boy, am I sure glad this place is here to vent!!!<P>Hope you all had a nice evening..<BR>L.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited May 10, 2001).]