I struggle with this daily. I ask myself if I hung in there when H was involved with the XOW just because I wanted to "win." Or because I felt obligated, because it was a marriage and I loved him deeply at one time. Did I stay because I was afraid? Because my self-esteem was so shot I didn't think that after H's EMR that I had a chance with someone else?<P>Does anyone else wonder about these things?<P>belld

I'm still 'hanging' in there, but I've had those same thoughts. I think (?) I've come to the realization that I do not NEED my H, but that I WANT him. <P>It's been just over 3 months now, since our separation began, and my emotions have been through hell and back, and back and forth, again and again, and thensome. grin.<P>I'll admit, part of me wanting him back is to 'win'. It's somewhat of a power trip should it happen (and the signs are good again... so long as I keep away from that LBing!!).<P>I've not really felt like I couldn't get anyone else, even though my self-esteem has been so incredibly low at times. I even know I could do better by being with someone else (and unfortunately, I get reminded of that by far too many people regularly), but the point is, I want to do better with H.<P>In your situation, were you really afraid? If I remember correctly, you were separated from your H for 6 months, right? Didn't that prove to you that you 'could' do it on your own? (even if only from a financial standpoint.. but it's something, right? grin). Just a thought.<P><BR>Karen<BR>

Karen,<P>I was horribly depressed those six months, and I struggled a lot financially. He left me with the mortgage payment and all of the bills, including my own. Which I could not make on my own. It would have been different had I been renting an apartment or condo, and since my parents helped out, I was in no danger of being thrown out onto the streets. But I remember during H's EMR when several men came up to me and told me that if it didn't work out, please keep them in mind. It was crazy. My feelings were of 100 percent sheer fear and mistrust. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't know, and all of that.<P>But I did feel better in other areas of my self-esteem - while I might have felt like I'd been dealt a low-blow to my womanhood, my personhood thrived. With H not around to call me names or tell me what a bad person I was, I actually began to see things more clearly. Now that we're back in the marriage, I'm starting to have those all-around feelings of low worth. H has been to anger management classes, but since he never fully acknowledged that he has problems being verbally abusive, the effects are not as great as they would have been had he gone into therapy long-term.<P>I'm still very confused about the clarity of things. It feels as though I've woken up from a seven-year dream, and all of my misperceptions of myself (e.g., that I was a bad, nasty, evil person) seem foolish. I don't want to go down that road before. But w/ H and me ... I just see it as something that's inevitable.<P>belld

belldandy,<BR>I read you post because I'm very afraid of winding up where you are. It's been 4 months since d day and my husband hasn't been living with me since then. But, he's living at his mother's (dissatisfactory arrangement for him) about a mile down the road, and he's here alot. My resolve to be rid of him disolves, as has always been the case in our relationship...I give in after a while. I''m very afraid of staying in a marriage just because I wasn't tough enough and he was too uncomfortable at his mother's. I know I can make it on my own and so does he. I think a big part of his strategy is not to give me a chance to enjoy being on my own. Keep me in turmoil and push, push, push for what he wants. <BR>But, he doesn't want to do anything I've told him I need him to do as far as removing himself from the presence of the OW. He's just sitting it out, waiting til what I put in motion forces him to be seperated from her. I'm just suppose to accept that "there's nothing going on anymore" "she's back with her husband and it's over". My response..."WASN'T SHE WITH HER HUSBAND WHEN YA'LL WERE SCRE@&*% AROUND BEFORE?!?" <BR>Your post obviously hit a nerve with me...Maybe I need to start a new thread to try and get some feedback from others further down the road with this.<BR>G.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by belldandy:<BR><B><BR>Does anyone else wonder about these things?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yep, everyday I wonder if I should keep waiting for the fog to lift. I think I should always be considering the alternative. <P>However, In the meantime I've grown, become a better Dad, and am better prepared for the rest of my life. I am proud that I have stuck it out this long and my support group respects me more each day. They wouldn't if I was not progressing as a person and instead wallowing in self pity.<P>Simply put, I am "leaving" my wife well behind. If she decides to work on our marriage, she'll have a lot of catching up to do, but I'll be the stronger one to support her. If she decides to end it, I'll be that much further along with my life that most of my recovery will already be accomplished. Plan A has been an outstanding success for me - either way.<P>WAT<P>

HI Bell,<BR>I think your questions are very normal and we all have asked ourselves similar ones. The answers are sometimes quite elusive.<BR>For me it boils down to 'i still love him'. That is pretty simple. Where is gets complicated is "WHY"? <BR>Lots of soul searching for the past couple years, and sometimes I still dont know! I keep working on self and discover new things constantly. The experiences have made me grow personally-believe me I would have chosen any other way than this one if given the opportunity! <BR>Keep working on self and you will discover wonderful things.<BR>(((((hugs))))) cl

I think about this...being separated 14 out of 21 months, did leave me some free time.<P>Deciding to open myself to reconciliation the last--successful!--time was a real struggle. I had talked myself into believing the divorce was ok. I believed the girls and I would be ok. I was still fearful of being single again, but much less so than I had been 1-2 years before.<P>At the point where Guard & I were last year, we spoke that we didn't want to get back together for financial reasons, or just for the kids. <P>Love is a big factor...but a bit like CL says, why would I still love him? What did that love consist of? Part of it was that we have had a happy marriage at times, we've had wonderful times together, we have 2 wonderful children, at this date we have over 20 years of knowing each other and the bonds that in itself creates. Add to that we have similar upbringings, values, desires, goals. We like eating out, trying new things, movies, hiking, camping, skiiing. We're attracted to each other, both have a slightly whacked sense of humor...when I was thinking of moving on, I sometimes would look at my H and think if I didn't know him and he showed interest in me, I would definitely go out with him. Then given that with each other we don't have to explain the way our families are, and that we don't have ex-spouse, step-parent or visitation issues, the balance tipped very strongly in his favor, once he was out of withdrawal, the fog, and thinking and planning clearly.<P>And since, last year I made the unwise choice of seeing an OM, I also know that my trust issues aren't just stuck to Guard, they are mine and likely to apply to anyone I would see...until time and healing have done their job.<P>When my 2 teenage daughters are lying on our bed watching TV with us...I know that if Guard was an OM, it would not be as comfortable for me or them, and I doubt they would be there if I was an OW either. So, even though we didn't get back together "for the children", being back together is a benefit for us as a family. I couldn't rule that factor out, because my family is important to me.<P>If my marriage fell apart tomorrow (and being Mother's Day, there is that chance oops, not revisiting ugly Mother'sDay memories!) I would never regret this past year of being together. I wish it would have gone more smoothly, I was pretty rough on Guard at times, almost testing his resolve to stay with me. He ever walks out again, I really don't know what I would do. I can't see doing this all again...but yet, I don't regret giving this effort. I look at Guard, and I love him. I'm "in love" with him. And he says the same.<P>This is turning long, but I know we BOTH made the choice to come back to our marriage. I didn't hand the marriage to Guard when he had his turnaround (although I had tried that during previous reconciliations), he worked at it, because I had already given everything I had, and had given up. And, even though my lovebank was empty...the bank was still there with his name on it , as was his with my name.<P>Faith also played a big part. I prayed for my marriage constantly. Quite honestly, after I thought it was too late and my prayers for my marriage and husband started coming true, I was a little irritated with God. I learned a great deal about faith.<P>So, I know why I'm in my marriage, this was a good reminder to think it through...and to remember how important it is not to let things slide.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Dear All,<P>Thank you for your wonderful, heartfelt replies. When I read this board, it never fails to amaze me at the diversity of our situations and the many ways that we have chosen to deal with infidelity and how it affects our marriage. <P>For me, H's involvement with the XOW was normal and expected. I'm not naive. I don't expect my H to be perfect. It's unrealistic to assume that simply because we have a piece of paper between us that this would protect us from the mechanisms of other people outside of the marital bond. As I've discovered, there is a small world of people who do not respect marriage and think nothing of inserting themselves as a third party. I'm not exempt because I'm special, nor is my H.<P>The problems I confront are the feelings I have when I think about how he dealt with the aftermath and how strongly his actions correlate to who he was before the EMR occurred. He never was the comforting type - maybe every now and then. But there were and still are too many times when there is no one to dry my tears. No one to tell me that he understands why I feel the way I do. No one to validate the pain that I'm feeling. I wonder how a man who claims to love his W could stand to see her in pain. I could never do this to my H. No matter what he's done to me in the past or what I have done to him, I could not stand to see him suffer. <P>He can stand to see me suffer. I notice things now, like how he never really asked me about my feelings or never really asked what he could do to help me get better. I see such self-centeredness. I see a man who is only interested in how my feelings make *him* feel. So I can't get mad. Can't be sad. Cannot cry or mourn. Because if I did, it would make *him* feel bad, and he would get angry with me. It seems to have always been about him.<P>Sometimes I think that it would have been best to just leave he and the XOW alone. I doubt they'd be together today, because she was too demanding on him, whereas, I've always let him slide. His involvement with her could have been my chance to let go of a bad situation. Instead, I fought. But now I wonder, what did I fight for? <P>belld

(((((((((((((( belled ))))))))))))))))<P>It sounds to me like you've missed out in some of the importance in all of this... to work on YOU. What makes YOU happy, what makes YOU a better person.<P>Have you truly discovered within yourself why you were fighting so hard for your marriage to begin with? I know that's what you are trying to figure out... any clues yet?<P>Karen<BR>

I've asked myself this question several times.<P>Here I am faced with the fact that my wife might be a homosexual. She is definitely involved in a gay relationship even though she has stated to me several times that she is not. She keeps telling me that she would have left me even if it wasn't for the OP, trying to land a blow to my self esteem that worked for quite a while.<P>But then I think of how she still tries to hide the relationship. How, even after I have told our kids and her parents, she still insists that she and this OP are just best friends and the real problem is how badly I treated her over the years. How pathetic she really is because no one, not even her own kids, believes her. She gets herself in deeper and deeper by continually lying and covering things up. When will this all catch up with her? If this was really something that was meant to be, why can't she just admit it?<P>I really believe it boils down to the fact that I truly love her and want to protect her. Even if she doesn't want me to.

Karen,<P>I don't know if fighting is the right word. With respect to the marriage, I'm just existing.<P>MelissaM

Dear Bell,<P>You know, OW accused me of staying only to keep them apart along with trying to get back at OW because I was jealous of OW. My reasons at this time (his return has been just at 2 weeks) is to give our marriage one more and final chance. H does know this. I have told him that the needs of his family needs to be met. <P>Oh, he and OW talked about the Captian Kirk logic: "he needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few." That is not why either. OW has to reach down real deep to make up her reasons because she is too dumb to know the real reason or maybe to stubborn to admit it. The real reason is simple, to give our marriage one more chance. That is all. <P>Our family have the task of welcoming H back to the family. H has the job of working to get our love back. He needs to fulfill our needs. Not be selfish. <P>Then we as a family, need to work on doing what is right for the entire family. Not like OW keeps saying, how important it is for H only to please himself. <P>Oh, psyco babble goes on and on about wanting to help H remove his guilt to telling H that he should go back only for the kind of love they have and not responsibility, obligation or family love. She knows good and well that the kind of love between OW & H is not a growing family love. Why she told H NOT to see his son!!! Then she modified it to 'allowing him to see his son ONLY on the weekends'. Then she modified it again and said, ok you can see your son, but not your wife or your relatives, ever. Hm..... Then she said the A they had was like they were married or better than being married. Hm..... Do you sense a disfunctional relationship? <P>In the long run, if the decision is made by both parties to stay, then that is who is obligated to keep their word. Both parties. For me, while I intend to keep my word (hopefully, H will also), I will live each day with a bit of doubt. I am not back to that point of complete trust and don't know if I ever will be. I would like to be, but cant say I see that any time soon. <P>Sorry for the ramble. For me at this time, the reason is mine and the reason is right. <P>Take Care,<P>L.<P>PS By the way, I do enjoy your posts. Thanks for the encouragement.

orchid,<P>Thanks for the compliment. I try not to get too self-involved. I realize that there are people on MB whose problems make mine pale by comparison. I have no children, I'm financially stable, I have a job and the means to make a decision other than staying in the marriage. I'm sure that if I have children, I'd think much harder.<P>My feelings at this point lean toward divorce at this point. My H is not going to counseling. He will not see anyone about his temper. Last night, he sat on my back to the point where I heard it crack. I could barely move today. He tells me that it never happened, that I'm making it all up. Plus, he staggered in at three in the morning after having been out at a strip joint with a friend. He claimed that he really didn't want to go.<P>B.S. The man never does anything that he doesn't want to do. I've known him far too long and too well.<P>I woke up, and he was sticking his clothes in the washer - at three a.m. the Sunday morning of mother's day. He said that it was because one of the strippers doused him with perfume. And I thought, "This is it. I''ve had it. I cannot take it anymore. He will never change."<P>I can beat my head against the wall. I can go to counseling, read Harley, read all of the self-help books, post here (which, BTW, he's incensed about, he thinks that this board is one of the causes of our problems).<P>His solution to the problem? That I lighten up and just be happy.<P>I can't. I'm not happy. I'm married to a man who goes to strip clubs, which repulses me. Who has called those sickening local numbers where people hang on the line and wait for someone to meet them for sex at one of the local dives. I don't want this kind of person in my life. I've played at being happy, but I haven't been happy for six + years. He will not get help to change himself. And so nothing that I do or don't do will ever change the dynamic of the marriage. He will continue to do things that hurt me and kill my spirit. If I stay, I will slowly die. I cannot bear to think of living the rest of my life this way.<P>I'm sorry to give up on all of you. But I need peace in my life. There is no one else, I can't even begin to think about ever dating again. I can't say that I particularly like or trust any men at this point, except the gay guy in my office. I have to get out before I just fade away ...<P>belld

Miss Bell:<P>You sound so sad. . .and I know exactly what you are talking about. I lead a duplicate lifestyle, I just can't express in the words that you do how frustrating and hopeless it seems. I am not as eloquent as you are.<P>I came back to my husband after a year, trusting that after what we had been through, things would have changed. Guilt changes most people that have done wrong--most people. There are some out there that don't feel guilt--they project it instead. What can we do for people like this?<P>You can understand how heartbroken I was, upon returning, to sit down to this computer and find continued correspondences to not only Miss Kitty, but bunches of other nasty women. Women who don't complain and give him trouble, but give him what he wants instead. They tell him what he wants to hear. And show him what he wants to see (I have a pile of stuff for the flea market, his webcam is now sitting on top of it.) When I confronted him, in a desperate yet calm manner, he denied, lied, and erased. All gone. (What are you whining about now? Can't you be happy with anything? If you are so miserable, buy a plane ticket, yada yada.) I thought that things had changed.<P>The description you give of your husband is a description of mine--the temper has dropped a few notches, but the deception--when is it going to end? I feel cheated. But it is my problem that I feel this way, isn't it?<P>Please write to me, Bell. I don't know if you remember my e-mail address, but if you would like to write to me, and if you feel that it would do some good to vent, please do. I will listen.<P>Maybe if we put our heads together, we might figure out what can be done. Patience? Perseverence? Courage to get away?<P>Don't let him hurt you again, Bell, you don't deserve that, no matter how much you love him. And I know that you do, or you did. You should not be hurt and suffer the temper of someone that should love you.<P>I know your story, I know that you have gone to couseling and to court and everything, if that has not done anything to change him, then I don't know what. But you should not be there with him if he is violent towards you--even if you are sure that he will not harm you. Violence is violence.<P>You are a smart, brilliant, delightful lady with a lot of talent. You should not waste your energy on someone who refuses to help themselves--it will only break your heart. You love him, I know that, but he needs to grow up. He seems incapable of directing energy towards anything but his own needs at this time. Perhaps someday, he will change, but maybe adversity is what will change him. <P>You keep going to counseling yourself, to help you decide what you need to do about your marriage. In the meantime, you keep your chin up. I can tell that you are feeling sad and hopeless. And like I said, if you would like to write to me again, I will listen: mary579@hotmail.com. Okley?<P>mary<BR>

Belld,<P>Here's the line that struck me most: <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> I don't want this kind of person in my life. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Belle, you shouldn't. Not every marriage should be saved. It's your <B>life</B> that's worth saving. Get away from this horribly negative situation. You're worth much more than this. And once you're safely away, you'll realize how true that is. Good luck, please keep us posted.<P>Adrian<BR>

YES!!!<BR>I wonder so many times....why I chose to stay....all the reasons...were they good reasons? Did I do the right thing? etc. I feel miserable at times...and wonder if I could be happier seperated or married to another....but then I think of my reasons that I stayed.....my children....my love still for my WS....our dreams...I STILL hope to accomplish together...then the negatives...being terrified of being out there alone...raising my kids alone.....living alone...etc. My self esteem being shot as well.....sigh.....<P>And yes, I am not a quitter either! Didn't want people to think I was...or that I couldn't "handle it"! humph!<P>Is staying...the lesser of the two evils? hummm.......<P>I think of myself often these days since "D-day" as a monster...I HATE the person that I have become since his affair! I want to be the old me! I was so upbeat and happy and full of life and positive! Now I am doom and gloom and a horrible Mother! sigh..... I feel ruined for life! I think...if it doesn't work with WH....then...it wouldn't work with anyone else either! I mean...this has turned me into a jealous distrusting woman....that rarely smiles anymore! I used to smile...actually giggle!...all the time! I MISS me!!!<P>Ok...getting carried away here! Anyway....belldandy...and others....I CAN RELATE!!! whew! <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by belldandy:<BR><B>I struggle with this daily. I ask myself if I hung in there when H was involved with the XOW just because I wanted to "win." Or because I felt obligated, because it was a marriage and I loved him deeply at one time. Did I stay because I was afraid? Because my self-esteem was so shot I didn't think that after H's EMR that I had a chance with someone else?<P>Does anyone else wonder about these things?<P>belld</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Hi everyone,<BR> I haven't posted in a long while but feeling the way I do,,,I just needed somewhere to turn. I'd like to say to Belldandy and Torn2Pieces and many others here that I feel the exact same way. I think Torn reminded me of me "how I felt" haveing a spouse who wants you to feel good so "they" can feel good and you don't interfere with their feelings. I recently told my wife that in the almost 20 years we've been together that not once has she ever asked how "my' day was..or how "I" was feeling.<BR> You have probably never heard of me as I only posted a few times and I was pretty screwed up. To make it brief my W had a long term affair (4 months) with a co-worker. The part I had, and still have difficulty dealing with is her ability to LIE and DENY everything. She wanted "time to think". She went to her moms and about a wk later I found out who the guy was and he was married and everything. I confronted her and of course she denied it....until I threatened to tell his wife. She said if I did that she'd never come back. She finally confessed but it was a platonic relationship (yeah right!!) I found out different from OM himself. Anyway she stayed home saying she loved me and wanted it to work. It lasted about a week...she looked sad and I couldn't stand it so I told her if she wanted to leave she could...and she did...although I wish she wouldn't have told the kids she didn't love daddy. She left again and about a week later whe told me (OM) was a dog and she made a big mistake....she found out what I had tried telling her for over a month..he was cheating on his wife...on my wife and one other girl. So I said I felt bad for her and she cried and wanted to come home....I let her..which to this day I regret.<BR> I felt bad for my children, and marriage to me has always been til death do us part...and she know that.<BR> Anyway the lies didn't stop and to make a long story short she says now she feels really bad about all of it but I don't know. I don't think she is capable of showing or feeling remorse. As long as I don't show that I'm haveing a hard time dealing she is fine.<BR> The affair ended about 8 months ago and I am now wondering if I did the right thing. I'll admit I couldn't stand to see my kids like that. Each time she left us made a part of me die.<BR> I do love my wife but she "justified" her A by making me feel really really bad about myself. I don't think I can ever forget all the things she said. I thought we were in love and best friends until then...dumb huh?<BR> My children are happy once again...what about me? It's not like I had hoped at all.<P>Still hanging in there Tinman.<BR>P.S. Sorry for the long reply.<BR>It's too bad we have to go through the worst pain you can imagine alone. That's why I vent here...hope you can forgive me.

belldandy:<P>The answer is "no". I've never doubted myself that fighting for the marriage was the right thing to do. I made a committment to my wife and God when I married---and that's not something to be taken lightly. I do believe that EVERY marriage should be saved (although abusive marriages fall into a very difficult situation). That's not always possible, but the fact that my wife wasn't always a "good wife" or that I hadn't "been happy" wasn't an excuse to say "maybe the marriage shouldn't be saved".<P>That's not to say that I didn't doubt myself during my Plan A/B times, or that I didn't feel at times like my wife wouldn't be better off "out of the marriage". But my committment to the marriage never really waivered.<P>My opinion is that the marriage should be saved. And made into something much better. That's my story, and I'm sticking with it.

my idea was to save the marriage for my kids. I loved my H, but I was not "in love" with him. I tried, but it took awhile. I was so hurt, and paart of me wanted to "win". I am glad I took the chance, because I do "love" my H and am glad we have a marrriage and a relationship.

Yes, belldandy.<P>I've wondered the same thing over and over.<P>Not the first D-day, or even the second. I was ready to leave on the fourth D-day but couldn't find the keys to the truck. I took it as a sign that I should stay...but I wonder...<P>Since then we have had a major financial "crisis" (actually a revelation of his poor spending habits) and a HUGE fight over "nothing"...it was after that fight that I asked myself whether I was doing the right thing.<P>I can take a lot of foolish behavior on his part, but when he started yelling at me in front of our son for a paltry reason <B>after</B> he had made <B>such</B> a mess of my life in the preceeding year... I have had a very difficult time being loving since that time.<P>I warned him that if he cheated just one more time I was out of there... I know that I have only stayed so far because of my desire to bring up our child in a two-parent home... But I wonder whether my son would learn more about love if he didn't see daddy berate mommy all the time...<P>Like you, I wonder if I'm staying in the marriage because it's the path of least resistance at the moment. Am I staying because I want to be married or because I don't want to be a single mother or because I'm too lazy to get a divorce....<P>It's a tough road, but for now I'm sticking to it... constantly examining it to make sure it is the right one.<P>All the best to you.<BR>--HBC