Hello To All,<P> Havn't even logged on to this site in so long. I am in need of some opinions. Oldtimers esp. that were helpfull in the past (Kam618, NSR, Catnip, Little Murph, SKM, OhMyMarie, LostVa and many hosts of others please, please give your thoughts...and of course anyone else)<BR> O.K... quick synopsis: D-Day was April 19, 2000. Husband came and left 4-5 times in between then and August 23 when he said he wanted a separation. August 24 I gave him a Plan B letter. I had been in Plan A from April to Aug. but was very painful for me, husband was lying like crazy etc. Stuck to Plan B, filed for divorce in Nov. and the 20 year old girl (he had sex with 2 times if you can believe him) gave birth to my husband's child (He's 44) on Dec.26. Have had no contact. My 4 ADOPTED children have been in trauma and since finding out about the baby. The oldest 2 had nothing to do with him for quite a while. Oldest 3 are in therapy.<BR> Now, I have been getting on with my life. Not happy about it but what can you do? Having no contact is a mixed blessing. It lets you imagine only the worst. Anyway I go to the counselor (male) that my youngest son is seeing (and I know my husband likes) and ask him if he can set up a meeting for both of us to see if there is any hope (in my mind it's my final attempt) We met last Fri. evening and .......hmmmmm.... I don't know... could the fog be lifting? It is very complicated with a baby in the mix (and of course she named the baby after my husband) and I'm not really sure if I want to reconsile at this point (a lot would have to happen on both our parts) but my husband said "I don't want to get your hopes up but lately I have been bouncing around about things. I was so messed up before that I couldn't even think. A few months ago I wouldn't even have agreed to this but now we'll just see." And he agreed to meet again next Friday. Now this time I was so proud of myself because I said, I wasn't sure what I wanted either but was willing to see how things went(instead of crying and begging as previously done).<BR> Well, now I feel so much better. It's like I finally have input into if we stay together or not - not him just walking out on me. And who knows? I may decide that I can't handle the OC in my life with all it's complications and tendencies to result in mistrust etc. (on the otherhand we were married 23 years, adopted 4 children together and really enjoyed each other till this happened.<BR> Also - for anyone's interest, the counselor said to me, "Don't you understand that your husband's affair had nothing to do with you? It is a problem he has with himself?" That's news to me but I'll go along for now. He also wants us to read the "Passionate Marriage". Is anyone familiar with it?<BR> Anyway, I'd love to hear any opinions regarding this. Thanks in advance for you help<P> Kris <BR>

hi Kris,<BR>I remember you and your H is close to mine in timetables. He left Sept00, and asked to come back a month ago. The rose colored glasses must start clearing about this time.<P>I dont have any advice about the child issue, maybe post on the board about other children to get some insight there.<P>But I can tell you that since my H ended it with OW in his own time, and because he was disillusioned with her and ready for it to end, it has been easier for me then for some. He is remorseful and committed to working on things, loving and supportive. Maybe you could have one session with the Harleys to get their opinion on what you should do. Know what you want from him... ending it with OW, No contact with her, what arrangements for OC, to see OC or not, counseling, honasty, whatever you need.<P>Good luck. Its good to feel that you have some chioces again isnt it? <BR>Lora

Lora,<BR> <BR> Thank you - I remember you also and your good advice. I'm curious - when your husband asked to return did you work out your difficulties prior to getting back together? My husband swears he is not with this girl (they do work together) and is not at the remorseful stage yet but still feels like the injured party who was driven to this!!!! He is still in the same mental place he was a year ago(very angry for past unsaid grievances). In fact he sounded so much like he did exactly at D-Day - the difference now is that he MIGHT be ready to listen(my guess)or at least work on things. <BR> What is interesting about this counselor is that he seems to follow the philosophy that you have to fix yourself as an idividual and will not let us really argue old issues - he stops that cold. I'm willing to try anything for no. And as I said I'm truly not sure if I want him back. I have no idea where this is going. Does it usually take about a year for the fog to lift? And YES it is nice to feel like I have some control back in my life. Thanks<BR> Kris

Ok Kris... now that I am caught up on things I will try a reply.<P>Sounds like you have a shot here, and a good counselor... which is critical. He is correct... you have to "fix" the individuals and then work on marriage. Your H needs to see you working on your own issues, then he might start working on his. I remember you mentioning things like him thinking you took childrens side, etc. Those are the things that need to be cleared up, then you can work together.<P>As for "Passionate Marriage"... I haven't read it. One I did start (and haven't fininshed) is "Getting the Love you Want: A Guide for Couples" by Harville Hendrix. It is just astounding. It starts off with some real basic stuff on why you end up with the mate you have & how your OWN personal stories & backgrounds fit into that. Boy, I really saw a lot of my own stuff & how it played into why my H and I where together and then how that led to relationship breakdown. I do recommend it. <P>If I were you, I think I would continnue in Plan B until you work out a counseling plan. Work on individual issues as a tangental line to marrital. Of course, OW and OC will come in to play at some point. But that will be second to whether the two of you WANT to try and be together. Does that make sense? <P>Let me know what you think. Carolyn

Kris,<P>I remember you from the preg/OC board. You were there when I first arrived. It sounds like all your hard work doing plan B might be paying off. Especially is he is seeming more receptive to counseling, etc!! Stick with plan B, and it sounds like you handled him wonderfully. He probably expected you to be crying and begging him by then, but you stayed calm and strong! Good going. Now he might be thinking he might lose YOU, if he doesn't straighten up. <P>I don't have too much more to say. Just that I remember you, and am glad you are doing good, moving on with your life while doing plan B. Like Takingcare said, work on you and your marriage issues first. Dealing with OW/OC will come later, and you can decide then how to handle that. Prayers for you.<P>happy_girl

Hi Kris,<P>I've missed you posts...<BR>...but glad to see your back again.<P>About the book "Passionate Marriage"...<BR>...check out <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/001763.html" TARGET=_blank>To Karenna or Others – Mid-Term Exam on Passionate Marriage</A>.<P>Love and Peace to you.<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

Hi Kris,<P>When H asked to come back, I just said there were certain things I needed in order for that to happen. He agreed to them. We had been seeing each other for about 2 months, going on dates once a week or so.<P>But he was at the point where he said he had broken up with OW and wanted her out of his life, so he finally admitted to having something with her. I figured I would get him back home and then work on getting him to open up more ,and go to counseling. But I think in your situation where there are other serious issues and he does not seem totolly committed,and you are not sure, it would be good to go through some counseling first. <BR>Lora

I Knew I Could Count On All Of YOU!!<P> I first want to apologize for not having posted in such a long time but I was trying to move on and felt that I had to distance myself for a while.<BR> Carolyn - I'm so glad you responded. You were always so helpful and your advice usually right on target. I was hoping you would respond but could only remember the Carolyn part not "TakingCare". The counselor described us as being very reactive to each other we are so reactive to each other. I now understand what my husband meant when this first happened and he said to me a few times that he couldn't give anything to me because he had to fix himself first. In my hurt, anger and disbelief I only wanted to fix things. And again according to my timetable. Plan B gave us the distance we needed I guess. I am going to stay in Plan B and remain cool. It's funny, but this is the most relaxed about it I've felt since this whole nightmare began. <BR> NSR - How do you do it? You know how to put us in contact with the right info. in a heartbeat. Thank you. Hope you are doing O.K.<BR> HappyGirl - I remember you also. Thank you for responding. I am not sure where we are going at this point but will try it for now. I hope everything is going well for you. Where do you stand with the OC situation? <BR> Lora - I think you are right: I have a complicated situation here - even if you just factor in the OC and my children's adoptions (they're afraid their father ditched them for a biological child)<BR> Again thank you to all. You saved my sanity many times in the past and again now. <BR> Kris<BR>

QM-Kris:<P>What you seem to be experiencing is the predictable 'time frame' that Harley mentions in his books. <P>The fog is clearing, Kris...it had to! Think about it a moment...what are the chances your husband would not become bored senseless in time with this juvenile delinquent more than half his age? What could they possibly have in common aside from OC? What on earth is there for them to talk about? Where is their "history"?<P>Eventually, after a good Plan A and the implementation of a strict Plan B, often the WS begins to wake up and see things the way they really are...then they may want to come home.<P>My husband's OW was 16 years his junior and about as interesting as watching paint dry. They did not enjoy the same music, have the same interests and while my husband enjoys talking politics and business, his collections and a myriad of other interests, her focus were her friends and which friend was going out with who and what she bought at the mall. Yawn. That is only cute for a while...may as well be conversing with your daughters' friends. The novelty of the sex wears off not to mention the obvious lack of respect from friends and family begin to erode what is left of WS's self esteem. They often realize they have become a laughing stock in their community...remember our fearless former leader, Bill, who everyone looked upon as a bad joke and had no respect for.<P>It takes a lot for these WS's to redeem themselves after all the damage they have done, but if he is truly remorseful, deeply repentant and completely committed to restoring your marriage and assisting you in the healing process, he will have to sever all contact with OW and use an intermediary (third party) for pick up and drop off of OC...<P>Of course it is still too soon to make any demands or set any real boundaries until he tells you he wants to come home and work on the marriage, and you have to be able to determine whether he is sincere. At this point, I would not settle for anything less than profound commitment before I acquiesced to any of his proposals. It sounds as if this could happen.<P>If he is open to a counseling session with the counselor he likes, it shows he is willing to start making steps forward with your marriage and your family. He has to really miss you and the kids by now, and probably remembers with real fondness the many years together...at least I would think so if your Plan B has been successful. To be absolutely sure (or at least as sure as anyone of us can be) I would not push or rush this and let him make the moves and continue with Plan B.<P>When my spouse asked me if he could come home, I gave him a list of expectations. If he complied, we were good to go. If not, he could not come home. My requirements were:<P>1. Never ever see or speak to the OW again under any circumstances<BR>2. Never have any contact with OC<BR>3. Attend Retrouvaille with me<BR>4. Stop drinking and go through treatment<BR>5. Attend AA<BR>6. Make amends to our kids and family<BR>7. Put the house in my name to protect me from OW's greed <P>He agreed and did everything on the list. The first six months he was home, he was moody and withdrawn at times and sometimes downright mean. I Plan A'd my heart out until I just couldn't stand the treatment anymore and made a stand. I told him to pack his bags and move in with OW if he was so unhappy at coming home and relieve me of the abuse because I wasn't going to take it anymore. He knew I meant it and he snapped out of it and we have been in recovery since (two years)<P>Stay strong, keep focused and pray for God's will and let the rest happen. BTW, "Passionate Marriage" by Schnark should be the Bible for all recovering couples...it is truly inspirational.<P>Regardless what happens next, you will be OK, Kris. You may be bloodied and beaten but you aren't dead. Keep your cool and be a bit remote and be open at the same time...that will help protect you from any disappointments and prepare you for any miracles.<P>You're in my prayers.<P>Catnip =^^=

Kris--<P>Hi there! Glad to see you are doing well.<P>Yeah, it sounds like the fog is lifting. The questions now are do you still have/can you find love for him, and can he do the work he needs to do to recover. Ah, and the complication of the OC! Your counselor sounds good, if your H is willing to do counseling for a bit, I would see if you guys can make any progress. If you work together a bit & do at some point decide to try it again, you will need to agree on a "plan" for recovery, agree to what each of you need to do to help/maintain recovery...I think that is crucial.<P>Yes, part of most affairs is about the marriage, but a big part of it is about the individual, so I would agree there with the counselor. Do read "Passionate Marraige" by David Schnarch (sp?)...it is a great book. It is not a sex manual (though it does talk a lot about sex), but really is about how two people must differentiate in marriage, in order top maintain and grow passion & love.<P>Hugs & prayers--<P>Kathi<p>[This message has been edited by kam6318 (edited May 14, 2001).]

Keep in touch Kris. Maybe even post back on "pregnancy/child" on occasion. This whole thing with an OC is so tough & digs up so much more emotion & issues than you can ever imagine. Then of course your situation with adopted children is just another whole layer of potential hurt. But I bet you can make it through it all. The main thing here is "do you love him?". If you can say yes, and he hasn't managed to put out all your love, then there is hope. Plan B is designed to protect you from getting your heart stomped on so much that you can't love anymore.<P>Sounds like your H at least admits he has issues. Some never do and expect everyone else to change & adapt. Encourage him to talk & be a good listener. Don't offer "fixes". Just let him talk & maybe prod him to tell what he thinks is the possible solution. That whole approach is so tough for women, but I bet you can do it. <P>Hang in there! Carolyn

Well, I must say it's been a long time for me in here as well. I say stick with Plan B like you have. It's his turn to come to you. For when he does, it's because he wants to and needs to. The coloring of the glasses eventually wear off. Stay strong and focused and don't get caught up in the moment of what he might say especially if you are vulnerable at that moment. Just causes to much pain. Above all just be you and don't act like a doormat. I wish you the best.

HI Quakermom,<BR>No advice, sending hugs for you and the kids! Nice to see your name and know you are doing well. You are great!!!<P>((((((((hugs))))))))

Thank You All From The Bottom of My Heart!!!<P> I am so deeply moved by the people here. I can't thank you enough for all your support and caring. No one understands these issues like you guys and I appreciate all advice.<P> I agree that I will remain cool and somewhat distant. I also have to honestly say that I am not sure I want to reconsile. I do still love my husband. However he has done some real crummy things over the past year. A lot of work would have to be done for us to get anywhere. There is no remorse that I see but a lot of anger. But he is willing to go to counseling and that is a step. He does want to keep contact with the OC and I don't know what his relationship is with OW is other than I THINK she's been trying to get him to commit to her all along but he has resisted. <BR> Am reading "The Passionate Marriage" and many of the points remind me of us. Well I just wanted to thank all of you. All advice has been excellent. <BR> Kris<BR>