Hello Everyone,<BR>Things like this were discussed here before but I think it's a bit different question.<BR>It's been 3 months after D-day. My W is WS and she has pretty low sex drive right now and it was never too great. She admitted that she wanted to have sex with OM every day I don't think it was ever like that with us during our 10 year M. <BR>I am doing plan A and her attitude towards me is becoming much better.<BR>I understand that it will become a bit better for us (hopefully) as she gets closer to me emotionally and I understand that such an increase in a sex drive during the A was partly because of the nature of the affairs.<BR>But it bothers me a lot that it will never become that good with us (or can it ?) . And it bothers me in general that she was so attracted to OM and never that much to me ....<BR>You opinions are greatly appreciated as usual.<BR>Thanks in advance,<BR>Ivan<BR>

Ivan,<BR>I'll tell you it can be much better for you and your W. There are things called love, and intimacy that are never achieved in illicit affairs. Maybe some day your W, my W, and all the WS's will learn this lesson.<P>We BS's have to learn a few things too, and I really feel your pain Ivan. Believe me, I know what it's like to have your W run off to have sex with another man, in my case 4.5 other men. <P>Try to keep your head up Ivan. There is so much more to intimacy than cheap thrills behind some building.

David is absolutely right - sex with other men can be very exciting, but is nothing compared to the true intimacy you share with someone you love. <P>I know of a friends husband who had several affairs in the past. Not because he didn't love his wife, but because he loved her too much - he put her on a pedestal and could not imagine asking her to do the sort of things he fantasised about because he thought it would cheapen her, so he went off and did those things with 'cheap' women that he felt nothing for. It's very sad because she would have been perfectly happy to be a part of his fantasies. I am sure that with your hope and strength and eagerness, you will one day be able to build up the relationship with your wife to such an extent that she will be able to confide in you about her 'darker side' - that 'wild woman' we ALL have inside us, but which is suppressed by the views of society. Encourage her, confide in her yourself so that you take the first step, try new things in new places and note her reactions, suprise her - but be prepared to back off if she obviously doesn't like what you're doing. Be romantic towards her in public - hold hands, kiss her, pick a daisy and give it to her, be 'teenagers' again. I can tell you this for sure - it's what a lot of women absolutely long for. Try it.

Ivan,<P>I thought you might like to hear from a woman on this one. Your wife's sexual attraction to the OM does not mean anything more than that under the right circumstance your wife can be very passionate. A very good thing for you to know... knowledge that can work to your advantage.<P>You probably are right that the elicit nature of her affair was probably, in itself a turn on.<P>As a woman, I know that women cannot resist a man who takes the time and effort to woo them and who knows how to please them. It's really not all that hard. Unfortunately so many men just do not get it. <P>There is a line in Camalot where Aurther is trying to recall "How to love a woman." he recalls that Merlyn said "You love her, simply love her." And it is that simple and that hard.<P>My first marriage fell apart for many reasons. But one of the main ones was my ex's attitude about sex. As long as he was pleased nothing else mattered. Forplay and after play got to be nonexistent. At one point he even told me that my orgasms were not his responsibility. I was so shocked and hurt that I did not tell him "Then in that case neither are yours mine." Wish I had. <P>You have a great advantage here. As Davidb says "There is so much more to intimacy than cheap thrills..." <P>You know women love ROMANCE "Romance is a state of being. It's about taking action on your feelings. It's a recognition that love in the abstract has no real meaning at all! Romance is best defined as "love-in-action". Love is the feeling - romance is the action. Got it?? Romance often starts as a "state of mind," but it must move beyond mere thoughts and intentions, and be communicated to your lvoer - through words, gifts, presents, gestures, touches, looks -- through action." <P>The above is a quote from the book "1001 Ways To Be Romantic" by Gregory J.P. Godek. I'll bet that affection is in your wife's top 5 EN's. This books has some wonderful ways to meet those needs.<P>An then there is meeting a woman's sexual needs. I'd like to suggest another book "Making Love Better Than Ever" by Barbara Keesling, Ph. D. She says that the book was written "to reach and inspire people who want something more than just a sex manual - people who want to make love with their hearts, minds, and souls, not simply their bodies."<P>I hope you don't take offense to my suggestions here. As a woman, these two books relay info that I wish my ex would have paid attention to. My current H is a much more loving man. He and I are now reading and using the info in these books. Oh my, life can be good.<P>If you have read some of my postings you know that my H(WS) and I are trying to put our relationship back together after his affairs. I am on the same emotional rollercoaster most of the BS on site are on. But as each day goes by things get better. The fact that my H will read these books and the Harley books with me and work our issues is helping me recover from the pain. His putting the time and effort mean the world to me.<P>Hope this helps, even if in some small way.<P>So go "Love her, simply love her."<BR>E

You guys are great! Thanks a lot for such prompt replies and new ideas/support.<P>Davidb, Paintbox :<BR> I always try to be optimistic and find solutions in very difficult situations and your thoughts and views help a lot.<BR>The thing that scares me is that she fell in love with him so much that she said that she is leaving and I think the only thing that stopped her was our 3 year old daughter (I know I don't have the worst scenario, at least something has stopped her !). <BR>I think that she is out of the "fog condition" but I am scared that I will never become so emotionally intimate with her as she became with OM (although I understand that it was based on lies etc. and wasn't too real but it felt very real to her).<BR> So the real question is if it's possible to get the same peak of excitement with someone you've been together for 10 years and love (which is not there yet but I am sure will come later) as with someone from "fantasy land". It's just so hard to imagine that she would want to have sex with me every day when it never happened before and it would've probably dissapeared with time if she stayed with OM but now I am really obsessed with this idea that I'de like her to want me more than she wanted him.<BR>Thanks again for all your wonderful ideas,<P>Ivan<BR>

zorweb,<BR>We posted at the same time so I didn't thank you in my last reply.<BR>So here it is my personal thanks to you for your reply. It is truly valuable. I am doing my best to show how much I love her and show it in every action and not just words.<BR>As I mentioned in my previous reply, my confusion is if things become as good as they can get and she falls back in love with me and there is nothing more that can be done to be more romantic (or there is always more ?) , can it still be as exciting to her as it was with OM since it was not completely real with him because I would never be able to simulate affair situation (including state of mind that she was in)? Hopefully I can create something better ....<P>Thanks again,<BR>Ivan.<BR>

Ivan,<P>You said "my confusion is if things become as good as they can get and she falls back in love with me and there is nothing more that can be done to be more romantic (or there is always more ?)" <P>Ivan, there is always more that can be done. Always more that can be explored. It takes a lifetime to truely love a person. Love - a work in progress.<P>I believe that it can be more exciting with you, her real love, then with the OM. Like I said earlier, you have an advantage, your history with her. The richness of a good relationship is much more fulfilling then any affair. <P>Have you read Dr. Harley books? He talks about how romantic love can be rebuilt even when it seems that all is lost. The book "Making Love Better Than Ever" talks about the same thing from a different perspective. Both of these authors give concrete coaching on how to do that. And they give hope.<P>You can create something better... make it a fun, loving endeavor.<P>Just my 2 cents again.<BR>E

Ivan - I'm a woman and I agree entirely with the 'romance' thing suggested, affection and romance are things that can get left behind when your time is being taken up with other things - sometimes it's just taken for granted that your partner knows you love them, so there's no need to show it all the time. I also still stand by my previous comment - as a woman, I also know that passion is also a very important part of an intimate relationship. Sometimes I want to be treated gently, lovingly and tenderly in bed - but certainly not all the while, many, many times I want to be treated with abandoned passion too! The trick is knowing which 'mood' your wife is in - if she is feeling a bit 'wild and wicked', then gentle tenderness can seem a bit boring. If she's feeling very romantic and loving, then 'wild abandon' can feel uncaring and emotionless. It's a real tricky one but by paying attention to her body 'language' and the way she is reacting to you, and being willing to change moods to match hers, you CAN sort this out. Good luck,<BR>Paint

And Paint is right on too.<P><BR>Good luck Ivan.<P>E<BR>

Zorweb, Paintbox:<BR>Thanks a lot, your comments are very valuable. Yes, this is true, I took a lot of things for granted since I thought that everything was perfect with us (I guess a very standard scenario).<BR>Anyways, I was busy with "surviving affairs" type books but after your suggestions, I will get a few "romance" books.<BR>I want to start with one, which one would you recommend, Harleys?<BR>Thanks a lot again.<P>Ivan.

Ivan,<P>Though Dr. Harleys books are very good, I don't think he has one that specifically address romance. My suggestion would be to start out with the one I mentioned above "1001 Ways To Be Romantic" by Gregory J.P. Godek. It is a national best seller so it should be at your local book store. One thing that makes it such a great book is that it's not one you need to read cover to cover. Instead it has great ideas on every page. It is just a fun book. This book will give you great ideas of romantic and affectionate things to do to fill your wife's love bank to over flowing. Above all else, have fun with it.<P>Then after that, I'd suggest the other one I mentioned above... "Making Love Better Then Ever" by Barbara Keesling.<P>E

I learned the very hard way that women use sex to get romance and men are more than happy to oblige them by giving them that romance in exchange for sex. What a sweet deal for everybody! Unless the woman happens to be your signigicant other and the man is some internet hill-billy preacher wanna be whose word of God includes preying on women. <P>Since we started recovery I have this 'guideline' framed above my side of the bed. <P>"Jen's" top five ENs<BR>1. Affection<BR>2. Affection<BR>3. Affection<BR>4. Affection<BR>5. Affection<P>When in doubt go back to #1 immediately.<P>I also gave both my sons copies of HNsHNs and "The five love languages" by Gary Chapman.

Zorweb:<BR>Thanks again. I'll get the books today or tomorrow.<P>NeverAgain:<BR>thanks for 5 tips I am trying my best.<BR>Ivan