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SKM:<P>Thanks for your honest and lengthy reply to my post on “Questions for WS (women only).<P>Here’s my situation and maybe you can offer some insight. I seem to be especially troubled today regarding what my W (WS) says about her emotional state and her feelings.<P>For me it has been a little over 12 weeks since EA d-day and 6 weeks since PA d-day. My W has been out of the house for a little more than 8 weeks. She says (and I tend to believe her) that there has been no contact since just after PA d-day (6 weeks).<P>In the days following EA and PA d-days I was crushed. We had a fantastic marriage (I thought) as best friends, lovers and companions. I went through a severe depression and we both went into counseling (separately). In those most immediate days I went through the whole victim deal. How could you do this to us? To me? A lot of sadness and tears but, surprisingly, only a little anger. <P>Following PA d-day she went through depression, too. Couldn’t eat, sleep etc. cried a lot--in her terms a “basket case.”<P>In the following weeks we have been struggling. I have moved away from the victim scenario and tried to Plan A as best I can. She still lives at her own apartment. We see each other often during the week. Occasional dinners, visits, talks etc., we talk on the phone and e-mail regularly. <P>Here is what she tells me: <BR>She says she knows what she did was wrong. She says she is sorry for hurting me. She says she loves me and loves what we had. <BR>(I tell her I love her, too and truly mean it. I have answered the question of whether i woul dbe bette off with her than without her and i know I am better off with her.)<P>She does not want to counsel together, though, until she is 100% committed to the marriage. She says she is not there yet. In fact, she has consistently said she is not where I am. She says she is trying to get there. Last night she said that our marriage needs to be the most important thing in her life before she comes back home and that it isn’t right now. She says she knows it is selfish but that she is trying to work on herself right now. She tells me I am a wonderful person etc. but she just doesn’t want to come home and feel like she is “giving in.”<P>At times she says she doesn’t know what is holding her back from coming home, but something is. She has said she needs to “get over” this other thing, which means OM. She says she knows she hurt me and knows this is painful. But she s says she meeds to understand “why I did what I did and I have to make sure I understand so it won't happen again.”<P>She has been saying the same thing for weeks now. It is hard and very painful to try to understand and try to be patient and wait for her to be ready to come back…but I know I can’t push her to make that decision. It is something she needs to do herself. <P>Any insight you can provide would be greatly appreciated.<P>Thanks.<P>Elad. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Elad (edited May 14, 2001).]
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Hi, Elad.<P>As you can probably tell from my first post, I can be a little long-winded. Several things came to mind when I read your post, and I do have some things I'd like to share with you. Unfortunately, I'm getting ready to leave work, so it might have to wait until a little later tonight or tomorrow morning. I hate to make you wait for a response, but there are a lot of similarities between your wife and I, and I want to make sure I can give you a complete response. So, I'll write more when I get a chance (hopefully tonight). But I did read this, and wanted to let you know that I'm not ignoring you. I've just been pretty busy lately.
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SKM<P>Thanks I would appreciate any insight and don't worry about being long-winded. I also norticed in your post some similarities in what you said and what my W has said--nece the post.<P>The one thing different is that you seemed to make a commitment right after the PA...my wife seemed to the day after PA d-day but then pulled away quickly and now we live in this limbo-land. <P>BTW--she confessed initally to the EA (although made it clear she was continuing to contact) but didn't confess to the PA until she was caught sort of. That's whenI let the OMW know what was going on and things cooled off quickly.<P>Anyway---thanks for any help you can provide...<P>E.<BR>
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Good Morning. Sorry I didn't get a chance to post last night, but it's been pretty hectic where I am.<P>I've been posting here and in the recovery forum for over a year now - so if you ever want to read my whole sordid tale, you might want to do a search on my username either here or in the recovery forum. I've written so much this past year, it's kind of mind boggling.<P>As background, friendship with the OM turned to an EA and then to a PA. All told the A lasted about 5-6 months. Immediately, when the EA went to a PA I confessed everything to my husband. Unfortunately for me (for us, really), I was a pretty pathetic person for a while - maintained contact with the OM, and the whole vicious cycle started up again - even though I was totally remorseful when I originally confessed to my H. So, again, the "friendship" turned into an EA and went to a PA for the second time - now I view the whole thing as one big affair, but I think it's kind of important that I had to confess twice.<P>Confessing to my H that I had an affair was probably the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life. And having the affair, well, it is by far the worst mistake, worst thing, I have ever done in my life. At first, I didn't even know how it happened, it just did. Now, after a year in recovery, I have accepted full responsibility for what happened. And, now, I really understand why it happened - but for a long time, I couldn't figure it out. For me, it took a lot of soul searching and introspection - but, I never moved out (probably the one thing right that I did through this whole mess, but I'll get to that). For me, I felt a lot like your wife probably feels now. And, I imagine, you probably feel a lot like my H did. <P>My H and I were married only 3 years before the A happened. Before I got married, well, I was kind of a wild child. I was very successful in school, sports, work, etc. . .but when I was in college a lot of things happened that I didn't really "handle" very well at the time. I'm not going to go into all of that, but this past year, I learned more about myself, and really about the time when things really started going "wrong" for me was when I was in college. I didn't really know it at the time, but I really was a mess, and all the decisions I made really, well, they weren't the best decisions in the world. And, I kind of just kept making one wrong move after the other. It's really a long story, but on the outside, no one would have known that I went through something really horrible, no one would have known that I was in this horrible downward spiral as far as my self-esteem was concerned.<P>For me, somehow I had developed very low self-esteem. I guess, deep down, I just wanted to be loved and "desired" for who I was. Anyway, inside I was spiritually and emotional lost, but on the outside I was achieving all these really good things. <P>I don't want to ramble on all that stuff right now. For me, I finally figured things out, and it's only by the grace of God that I'm still here. When I got married, I loved my H, loved the thought of getting married, everything. I loved coming home and sharing my day with someone. My H and I went everywhere together, did everything together. We were (and still are) best friends. We had a great time when we went out, we had a great time at home. At the time, I didn't think there was anything wrong with me or wrong with my marriage. Everything seemed fine.<P>Looking back on things in hindsight, well, I think I was depressed, and never really "handled" it very well. There was absolutely nothing that my H did wrong, but I became frustrated. I had a long commute to work, I had a very stressful job, we wanted children but I was the primary breadwinner in our family, we tried to have children an couldn't, I was frustrated that my H had to do paperwork at night instead of going out, I was frustrated with the post-marriage weight I had put on - not a lot, but more than I wanted, I was frustrated about getting older, and it always felt like I was "missing" something. I was always wondering what life was all about - was this it?<P>If you can have a mid-life crisis at 32, I think that's what really happened. In my life, I think I became very overwhelmed, and really didn't handle it at all well. My H knew I was frustrated, stressed out, etc, and he was ALWAYS there to support me. He told me I was attractive all the time, told me he loved me all the time, took me out, held my hand, all the time. There never seemed to be anything missing.<P>So, when the affair happened, I was kind of - I know this sounds very, very strange, but it was like the whole situation took me by surprise. I was probably at the lowest point I have ever been spiritually, emotionally, and physically. When the OM told me I was gorgeous, when he hit on me, I was flattered but very, very scared, too. The OM knew I was married, but he pursued me anyway. I'm not going to lie and say that I didn't do things later on that probably encouraged him, but at the beginning, if he wouldn't have pursued me - I don't think I would have had an affair - at least not with him. Who knows if that would have changed anything later on, and I'm not blaming the OM, but inside of me, I was constantly fighting this battle of what was right and what made me feel good.<P>I knew from the very beginning that what I was doing was completely and absolutely wrong. Prior to the affair, I always thought that I would NEVER be the "kind of person" to have an affair. In fact, if things got so bad with my marriage, I always told my H that we should first talk to each other before things got out of hand. And, we did that to a certain degree.<P>Basically, for me, I was at a very vulnerable position in my life. I didn't feel particularly good about myself or about my life. My relationship with God - well, I grew up Catholic, went to 12 years of Catholic school, went to church every Sunday, you name it. But, my relationship with God really was at it worse.<P>I guess I kind of lost sight of the long term and only focused on the immediate. I always rationalized that life is short so find happiness now, find love now. And, when the OM hit on me, well, it made me feel attractive, it made me feel confident, sexy, it made me feel like I was still worth something to someone, that someone wanted me. Since I had low self-esteem, I always measured my worht by how people responded to me. If people liked me, than I must be okay. So I was constantly trying to please people. I was like this cameleon who could change shapes and personalities depending on the people I was around and the situation. At work, I was your stereotypical, high achieving, fast-tracked employee. Always taking on extra work, always serious, dedicated, hard-working. At home, we would go out with our friends, and I would be the life of the party, making jokes, I loved to make people laugh, I wanted people to like me, so I didn't take myself seriously, I just went along.<P>So, I guess the point of this very long-winded ramble was that I was looking for happiness from the outside. IT's a very contrite statement, but it is so true, happines comes from the inside - and most of the time it comes from doing the right thing. I never understood that prior to the A. For me, I was never content with my life. I was always looking for the next promotion, the next good deal, the next car, the next house, the next party, the next thing to make me feel good.<P>This is all stuff that I understand now, but at the time, I had no clue what was going on. And, my H didn't either. Now, I have come to understand, that sometimes bad things happen to you, and sometimes you do bad things that hurt other people. It's not so much what happened, or when, or how, but how you deal with those situations that matter. And, for me, I didn't handle a lot of things very well. I kept relying on myself to fix my problems, instead of relying on God.<P>Anyway, the whole time during the affair, I knew it was wrong. And, when I think about it now, it really makes me feel physically ill. I would go out with the OM, make out with him, and then go home to my H and pretend that nothing was wrong. I couldn't even look him in the eye. I was a good liar, I guess, because he never knew what was going on. And, when I confessed, that made him feel horrible - like he should have known, he should have known that something was wrong. My H is completely and totally awesome. He even said at the time that I confessed, that there must have been something he did or didn't do to push me away, psuh me into having an a. At the time, I didn't know how to respond. Now, I know, that yes, maybe we could have communicated better, but really, the affair was totally, completely my fault. It was, I think, primarily due to my low self-esteem - someone thought I was pretty when I didn't feel particularly good about myself. I probably would have never said at the time that I had low self-esteem because "well, that's for losers." I never considered myself a loser, a low-life any of that - and I'm sure my friends didn't feel that way about me either.<P>So, when the affair went, well, all the way, I felt like a total sleaze bag. I felt like I was worse than a prostitute, I felt like a whore really. But I couldn't stop it. I would always have these little debates in my head. . .I loved my H, but didn't know if I was still "in-love" with him (classic WS line, I know). I knew that what I was doing would hurt my H, I knew that it was wrong. I hated the lying, the deception. I hated coming up with alibies and covering my tracks. It was absolutely horrible. So, why did it continue? I guess you could say I was hooked. I didn't have enough self-control to say no in the beginning, and I didn't think I had enough self-control to end it.<P>Again, my H never knew anything was wrong, but inside I didn't know who I was, what I wanted. I was a mess. The thing that basically forced me to confess was that I could not take the lying anymore. And after the PA part, I KNEW it was an A, I KNEW that I couldn't be with my H and the OM, I KNEW I had to either end my marriage or end the affair. I was so confused at that time. I thought I was falling in love with the OM (but looking back on it, trust me, it wasn't love, nor would it have ever worked out). I thought I was falling out of love with my H. I thought fate had brought this OM into my life, and fate meant for us to be together. If it weren't fate, then the OM would have never pursued me - knowing that I was married. I was a mess, you can see.<P>So, for me, I told my H about the A right after the PA (the serious PA). In fact, I couldn't even tell him face to face, I wrote a letter and asked him to read it while I was in the room. I was crying hysterically, my H didn't know what was happening - until he started to read the letter. In the letter, I told him basically what had happened (I really don't remember everything I wrote, it's almost like I didn't even write it, strange when I think about it now), but I also told him that I loved him, that I didn't know how this could have happened, but that I needed his help to help me figure it out. I told him that I wanted us to be together, that I was sorry, and that if he could find it in his heart to forgive me, that I'd like to try and work out our problems. (At the time, I didn't know what they were).<P>My H, teared up, and I'm sure he was upset underneath, but he immediately forgave me, hug me, we even went outside to our grill and burned the letter I had written together. I cried for probably two months straight after that first confession. I felt miserable about what I had done, about the hurt I had caused my H. But at the same time, I missed the OM, I wanted to talk to him. It was very very strange.<P>For me, it was kind of like someone who knows that drugs or alcohol is ruining their life, but they still want/need that fix. For me, I wasn't hooked on drugs or alcohol, I was hooked on the A, the relationship. It was never that the OM was this great and wonderful person, it was how the relationship made me feel. It made me feel good about myself (oosh, let me restate that) - it made me feel attractive, good-looking, confident - outwardly things. I felt someone wanted me, that someone thought I was special. It was completely insane, because my H felt that way about me the whole time, but I never really believed him. The affair also made me doubt everything that I had with my H, it made me doubt why I even married him. It made me doubt that I could ever love him again.<P>So, when the affair finally ended, I had a lot of doubts. I went through a whole rainbow of emotions. I despised myself for giving in to temptation, for becoming the "type of person" to have an affair, for compromising my values, for doing something that went against God's "TOP TEN" no-nos. At the same time, I doubted whether or not I loved my H, I doubted whether my H could truly forgive me, I doubted that everything COULD work out and that we could put this mess behind us, I doubted that thigns could get better between us sexually, emotionally, everything. I doubted our compatibility, I doubted our choice to live where we lived. I had doubts about everything. I knew that I had hurt my H, so I felt miserably sorry for that. The hardest part in all of this, for me anyway, was that I felt like I had no control over my own thoughts, that I had no control over my emotions. One day, I feel lucky to have my H on my side, the next day I wonder why I even married him. One day, I feel totally and completely miserable about what I did to my H and to myself, the next day I'm wondering if the OM really loved me. That's why I say I was a basket-case. Because I was. For all intents and purposes, someone should have locked me up and given me some medication.<P>But, somewhere amidst all this confusion, I had enough sense to know that I could never get through this myself. So, while I thought about moving out to try and figure out what happened, why it happened, what I was going to do - I decided to tough it out. I probably felt exactly the same way your wife feels now - only, I told myself to give it a year, see if it's any better, and then you can move out. I went as far as to check into apartments, etc. . .<P>And, for me, one of the reasons I stayed - at least for that first year - was that I was afraid of what my family might think. Strict Catholics, no divorces. I mean how would it look to them if I moved out? They would aks me why, and I'd have to tell them that their little girl is not this little angel that thought she was. Basically, I guess, the only reason I didn't move out was because I was a coward - afraid of what others would think. And I know that hurts my H to say that, but it was the only thing, really, that kept me at home.<P>To your wife, to another WS, to anyone else, it may seem like a pitiful excuse to stay home, but for me, it was a blessing from God. Had I moved out, I don't know if my H and I would have made it through this mess. And I'm not saying that your situation won't work out, or that once a WS moves out - that's it. For me, though, I was a basket case. I think if I would have moved out - I would have either gotten deeper involved with the OM - which would have been a horrible mistake. Or, even worse, I probably would have been consumed by my own self-hatred. I literally despised myself. <P>And, I guess I should mention, that in recovery, I tried to kill myself twice. Just a little bad history, nothing to worry about now, believe me. It was just a part of that "old life" that I had lived. At that time, even though I did something right (ended the A, told my H), I still felt like this horrible loser. That no matter what I did, even if I wanted to make it up to my H, I don't think I ever could. At the beginning, I didn't even know if I wanted it to work out. And at times, I thought even if it did, I would never be able to forgive myself.<P>A lot of the times, it felt like it would have been easier to leave - to move out, to think. But I stayed. There were times in "recovery" when I was completely desperate, even though I went to confession, knew that I was forgiven by God, I had a very hard time forgiving myself. I always went to church, but I was ashamed to set foot in my parish. I felt ashamed, I felt like there was no way God could forgive me for this, that I'm doomed. And, that's when I really began to despair, And that's when I did - or tried to do - the most desperated thing you could ever do - but I was so tried of feeling like I was out of control, I was so tired of feeling like I couldn't stop thinking bout this, or about the OM. If someone could have given me a pill to stop the thoughts, I would have taken it.<P>For me, I will be quite honest and open here, I am a Christian, and the only reason - the only reason - that I am here, able to write this message - is because finally, at my lowest point, the day after I tried to kill myself (the second time) I was a mess, I was crying, didn't know what to do, I still thought about the OM, I still thought about all the horrible things I had done, all the lies, all the deception - I kept replaying them in my mind. I couldn't even get out of bed that next day. And, I just laid there and just told got that I was so tired, so very tired, that I was a weak person, that I didn't know what to do to make things better, I told him that this battle was too tough for me and could he fight this one for me.<P>No lie, my life changed from that day forward. I know a lot of people talk about this kind of stuff - about how God came in and took over, how they were "saved," and I never thought I'd be "that kind of person either." But let me tell, you, the way I tried to kill myself - had my H not been there I would have been dead. Now, God did not call me to sin, he didn't tempt me to have an affair, but I think part of his plan for my life is that I be married to my H. He put my H there, at that moment to show me that I WAS meant to be with my H.<P>And since that time, my H has been there on a number of occasions - maybe not quite as serious. But had I gone through this desperation with the OM - I can almost garantee that he would have left faster than a speeding bullet.<P>It's taken a lot of time for me to get to where I am now. At the beginning, I told myself I would "give it a year" to see if things would get better. For me, personally, things got a lot worse before they got better, but I am a 100% better than I was a year ago. I have grown tremendously as a person both emotionally and spiritually. And, my marriage? It's not perfect, but I love my H more today than I did yesterday. And I know that I will love him even more tomorrow. For someone who never thought that she "was in love with her H" again - truly this is nothing short of a miracle. And I do believe in miracles.<P>Elad, I was a complete mess. And, I don't think your wife is probably as messed up as I was. But the thing is, I to, thought that I needed to first figure things out - why IT happened, and then I could recommit to my marriage. But the thing that worked for me was giving my marriage "at least a year." If nothing else, I had already broken my marriage vows, I could wait at least a year to try and work things out with my H - and then move on. And, truly, I thought, after a year that I would be "moving on" but that didn't happen.<P>I'm sure my H is probably a lot like you - and has a lot of "staying power." He put up with (excuse my language)a lot of crap from me. Here I ws the one who messed up, but yet I was the same one who was very irritable, cranky, just a blob of terminal PMS. But somehow, he endured. I often ask him how he put up with me, and he just says that "It was hard sometimes, but I just tried to focus on the big picture. I wanted to grow old with you, I wanted you to be my wife." And I would typically respond "Even after everything I did?" And he would say, just very simply "yes."<P>I don't know if this big ol' post helped or not. There are so many things I went through over the past year, but now with a year behind us, I can honestly say that things are better. I can't say they're perfect, because theoretically, if things were perfect we wouldn't be here, we'd be in heaven. So, marriage, I think I've finally figured out, it a work in progress. It's constantly faced with changes in the external environment, thigns that you have to face, things that you have to "deal with." Before, I didn't deal with those things very well, but now I know that my H and I will face those things together.<P>It's really, really odd, but you read in books and might even get counseling where someone will tell you - not to worry, eventually this will just seem like a bad dream or something. At the time when I felt like a basket-case, I would have laughed at or never believed that I could EVER get past this. And, I know I will never forget what happened, but right now, today, it does seem like a bad dream, a nightmare, that happened to someone else. And really it did. I was a different person back then, my H was probably a little different (though I can't speak for him and how this has changed him personally), and I know that we were a different couple back then. On the outside, I doubt that any of our friends would know what we went through this past year (only me, my H and the OM know about the A). But my H and I have re-connected on a much higher plane than we were on before.<P>For me, I think my H appreciates me for who I am. I think he has to be proud of himself for having the courage to go through what he did, and I think out of that, I think he discovered, I hope, how much he really does love me.<P>For me, I know that I respect and admire my H more than I can even put into words. He was my rock here on earth. He was the beacon that led me home. I know that sound really corny, but when I was floundering, drifting in no particular direction, he was always stable, reliable, consistent. At the time, looking back on it, it was the only thing I could count on. I feel really bad that I had to rely on him for so much, but I am so grateful that he had the patience, the compassion, the love inside him.<P>So, for you and your wife, I don't know how much "pull" you have with her right now, but if there's any way to convince her to come home, to give it a year, I think that would help. For me, I thought I had to have everything figured out before I could commit to my marriage - so I just committed to "try" for a year. But during that year, I really had to try. For a long time, too, I thought, magically once I decided to recommit, that everything would fall into place. My H was meeting my needs, he was doing everything right - but yet, I still did not feel like I was "in love" with him. Some of that had to do with getting distance from the OM (no contact), but some of it had to do with actually seeing that my H had needs, and then try to meet those needs.<P>AT first, I didn't want to try, I didn't want to give my H any false hopes, I didn't want him to think that everything was a-okay. I was being selfish, but it was almost like I wanted him to prove to me that things would be better. But even then, I doubted that these changes that were being made would last beyond this "critical" stage.<P>So, it's hard to get past the mindset, really, that while things may have changed for the worst, they can change for the better. I was a fatalist, and never thought that things could reverse themselves in a postive direction - but they did. I never thought that I would be "in-love" with my H - but I am. IT doesn't happen magically overnight. We did a lot of praying, and we did a lot of talking and trying to understand. It's not easy, and I'm not going to claim that everything is just as I would like it, but if I can come this far in one year - I can only imagine how good things will be next year. I think my H and I are on a roll that won't stop unless we let it.<P>And right now, I don't see that happening. So, if you can get your wife home, keep trying. If it would help, I can talk to her - sometimes, people won't go for counseling because they're afraid that - well that they'll look like the bad person. And sometimes you don't want to hear about how important no contact is from someone who hasn't had to go through it. And you don't want to have people telling you that things will get better when they have no idea waht you're going through.<P>Every situation is different,a nd there are no garantees, but my only goal - because I appreciate it so much - is that when I post, that I really describe what's going on, what I've been through - so that other WS can see what IS POSSIBLE. Nothing is ever garanteed, but if it can work for a loser, low-life like me (and I say that kind of tongue in cheek now), than it CAN work for others if you just give it a chance.<P>For me, I didn't want to have any regrets, so I tried. I read everything I could on infidelity, I found and came to this site, posted to BS and WS alike, got some really good advice. My H and I never went for counseling - I think it could have helped. But for us, even though I had my doubts, I genuinely committed myself to the principles on this site, and it worked for me. No contact was rough, but it worked. Complete honesty with each other was hard and sometimes downright painful, but it helped us to learn more about each other. Open communication - it sounds so simple, but really that's the main ingredient that helped us.<P>Anyway, now that you have spent all day reading this, I just wanted to say, that if there is anything I can do, please let me know. I have set up an email account just for my MB buddies - skm@hotmail.com. I know it would be pretty odd for me to email your wife if she doesn't want that, but if you can encourage her to come here, read, post. Truly, it was one of the things that saved me from self-destructing. See if she'll read books on infidelity. The very first book I read on the subject - long before I found this site - was book called "Infidelity: Your Complete Survivor's Guide" by E. Gough. It's a very short, easy to read book. And as a WS, it does not do any kind of finger-pointing, and it helps you to understand - alot - about how things could have gone so wrong - maybe not personally for me - but for my marriage.<P>Another good book my H and I read was "His Needs, Her Needs" by Harley. Again, so of the material applied to us, some didn't, but it did kind of make sense - about how things can get off track, but also how you might be able to get back on track.<P>You and your wife are "newbies" to this mess, so you'll hear people recommend - a lot of times - that things will get better, just hang in there and give it some time. And really, once I ended the affair and did the no contact thing, it really was just a matter of time and things did get better.<P>Anyway, sorry this was sooooooo long! ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif) Now you know why I said I needed time to respond to you!!! Take care, you and your wife are in my thoughts and prayers.<BR>
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skm ;<P>thank you for your honesty.<P>i am thinking of printing this and giving it to WS H. he is already out of house but it might get him to think. i don't know if i want him back and i don't want your post giving the false impression , ijust want him to truly understand that he is not the only one in the world who is a WS and perhaps he can "see himself ' in your post. <P>What do you think?<P>hopelessmom<BR>
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hopelessmom -<P>I think it wouldn't hurt. For me, a lot of my problems came from thinking that I was different, my situation was unique, I should have known better. I had a lot of remorse, and there were some really bad times in which I thought I was the only loser in the world to have ever done such a thing.<P>A lot of things helped me in knowing that others have been where I am now. First, I thought my situation was unique, it wasn't. Therefore, I no longer felt like I was the "Exception to the Rule" - that fate had brought me to this OM, that fate wanted me to be with this OM or I would have never met him, that I was different, I wasn't looking for an affair - so it was "meant to be." <P>The other thing it did - knowing about other situations - was that it helped me, once I kind of came to my senses - to realize that I wasn't the only loser to have ever committed adultery. While I hate that other people have gone through this - really, I don't think I could have survived if I didn't know that others have been where I was and where I am now.<P>So, I guess it couldn't hurt, is my point. (I'll keep it short ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif) ).<p>[This message has been edited by SKM (edited May 15, 2001).]
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SKM:<P>Thanks for this post. Much of what you are saying is nearly word for word what my W has been saying to me.<P>I need to digest what you have written. I may have my W read it. She has read soem of the MB stuff but hasn't participated in the discussion forum here yet--I'm not sure she is aware of it.<P>Thanks for your offer to talk/e-mail her. I will take that into consideration too.<P>Best of luck to you and your H as you continue in recovery.<P>Thank you again for your honesty.
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Dear SKM,<P>I am thankful for your lonhg post. I am going to have it translated into Chinese and have my wife read it. I believe that her situation and feelings were very similar to yours. Now she has no one to talk to about this. Her English is not that good and she does not want to confide in Chinese friends or family. So your letter I think will really help.<P>Rodger.<BR>
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Dear SKM,<P>I am thankful for your long post. I am going to have it translated into Chinese and have my wife read it. I believe that her situation and feelings were very similar to yours. Now she has no one to talk to about this. Her English is not that good and she does not want to confide in Chinese friends or family. So your letter I think will really help.<P>Rodger.<BR>
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Dear SKM, Your post was amazing...it will keep me hanging on to every last thread of hope. Thanks so much for helping.
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SKM<P>I am at work and it is terribly hrd not to cry having read your post. Thank you for posting this..<P>I have read a lot of what you have shared and kept an eye out for you because..well, you sound so much like me - it is crazy. <P>Thank you, because I feel as if I am able to understand myself better through your understanding of yourself.<P>-dawnn<P>
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Dear SKM, Just wondering, during your year of "deciding", did you try to discourage your H's efforts of change? For example, one of my H's complaints was that I would never phone him during the work day to touch base. I can't say that the "never" thing is really true but for the sake of Plan A, I'll leave it alone. Now that I do, he's basically rejecting those efforts although I pretty well ignore him and continue. Since he's stopped his daily contact with the OW, he says that he's missing her etc. What do you think? Should I continue to phone anyway?
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Wow, I can't believe more than one person actually read through that long ramble. I'll try to organize my thoughts a little better before I start typing next time ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif) .<P>Elad - No problem. I think the ironic thing is that I felt like I was different, that my situation was different, and by coming here, I realized that I used some of the same lines as other WS, that I felt the same way as other WS, that I was just as confused as other WS. I have heard of other WS moving out and then moving home again - but I never went through all of that. But, honestly, I can understand your wife wanting some time to figure things out, but for me, it took a while to figure things out. And every day, it seems like I figure out something new about myself or the situation, and have a different perspective. If you go back and read through some of my earlier posts (starting in June 2000), you'll see that back then I was probably mimicking your wife word for word. But, I am a different person now, so I can hardly remember how truly bad I really felt and how confused I really was. Parts of it I will never forget - about contemplating moving out, and some other things, but really there were a lot of things I did have to work through on my own. But I couldn't have really done that without this site - it forced me to look for answers to some really tough questions, it forced me to see the hurt and pain that the BS go through, it forced me to realize that while what I had done was horribly wrong - that there are people willing and able to forgive the worst of deceptions. So, just hang in there, read everything you can on Plan A.<P>I think in one of your other posts, you mentioned something about what the WS are missing out on - those who haven't turned things around and seen the love that their spouses have for them, and I too, admire their (and your) strength, courage, and committment. Even if your wife never says it, you and all the other BS on this site kept me on the right track. It does help to post and respond to posts such as yours - it helped me to think things through. And, it helped to know that I wasn't let to my own resources to figure this stuff out - there is help out there - you just have to reach out and grab it.<P>Rodger - Wow, now I've gone international. I think its wonderful that you come on to this site and share information with your wife - that you take the time to translate it for her. Not only does it show compassion, it shows a lot of love - and I hope in time she will truly appreciate all that you were willing to do for her. To be able to put your own emotions on the back burner and to print off things that may help your wife, well, you're a very empathetic person - and I think that will take you a long way.<P>WAT - President. . .I'm thinking with Rodger having my stuff translated to Chinese that I'll at least think about an ambassadorship or something ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/wink.gif) ! But keep hope alive, SKM in 2005! <P>Dawnn - I have learned so much about myself, and the best part - even though there are things I still don't like about myself, I am content with my life, and I'm content with myself. It's ridiculous to think that what I did didn't have an impact on me, my H or my marriage, but the best part is that we did not let the worst thing that could happen in a marriage destroy our marriage. Like I told Elad, I am the same person I was before, but yet so much different. I think I have learned a lot through this process - not only about myself, but about the power of my H's love for me.<P>Terrified - ooosh, what's your H doing? He sounds like his doing some of the same stuff I did. For me, I didn't meet the OM on the Internet or anything like that, but one of the main ways we communicated was at work through email (he wasn't a co-worker either) and through phone calls. The OM was forever calling here. And emails. . .When I ended the affair, that's the thing, I guess I missed most - not being able to joke around, flirt with him via email. So, I told my H that I was having problems, kept thinking about the OM even though I didn't want to, and one of my major complaints was that my H did not "check" in with me during the day either. Looking back now, I was scrapping for reasons - not to justify the affair, because that was not possible - but to justify why I felt bad, or why I felt like he didn't love me. The OM calls me all the time at work, you never call me just to say hi, or just to chat. Then when my H started calling, I found that I never really had anything to say. I don't think I discouraged him, but I probably wasn't as receptive to his calls as I guess he thought I would be.<P>I think your H is probably going through withdrawl - where he's not contacting the OW - so there is this void, and I do think you need to fill that void. So, if I were you, I would keep calling him - nothing major, just once a day is good. You don't have to talk long or anything like that, but for me it did help at the beginning to fill the void. And, instead of emailing the OM I would go onto the MB site and either just read or post - and that's how I filled that void.<P>It's horrible to think that I had to have my H "fill a void" that the OM had left - it's pitiful actually, since it should have never happened, but at first, it will probably seem like you're bending over backwards to do little things to make sure he knows that you are meeting his needs. And it will probably be frustrating for a while - for as much as my moods changed (which was constantly) so did what I think were my most immediate needs. The bottom line is that I wanted my H to do things for me without asking - to let me know that in some way I was important to him, that he didn't want to lose me. I know it's very selfish, it was the most selfish time in my life (excluding the A), but do things you'd think he'd like without asking, too. I know you can't be a mind reader, but the biggest thing my H did - that I will never forget - that I probably appreciated the most - was for me, I'm a neat-nick. I hate leaving the house a mess in the morning, but never have time to make the bed after I leave for work. At the time, my H was out of work, and it was hard to think about me going to work while he stayed at home, I could have been very resentful I guess - though it wasn't his fault that he lost his job, but I wasn't because of one little thing he did - he made the bed everyday until he found a job. And at that time, when I felt like the world was crashing around me, that one little thing made me feel great. And, I think it was because my H did it without me having to ask - like he knew I would appreciate that so he did it.<P>For your H, I doubt it will be the same (I'm kind of goofy when it comes to needs). But, even though your H may not be exactly pleasant, I would keep calling - even if you have to make up an excuse to say hi - it meant a lot to me when I was going through withdrawl, but I only learned to appreciate it now. Do things, I guess without expecting anything, do things because you want to do them. I never wanted to increase the burden on my H, but I just needed to feel like he wanted to do those things for me. Hope that helps.
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Okay, did I say that you are amazing? One more question...it sounds as if you were on and off with the OM for awhile before deciding. How long was that "while"?
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Id like to nominate this thread and skm's incredible post for the noteable posts section. <P>Also skm, has your H ever read this forum and your posts?<BR>does he know how helpful you have been to so many folks here<BR>has he ever posted his feelings?
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Terrified -<P>Basically, my situation went like this. . .<P>Friendship with OM (actually, acquaintanceship, I didn't really know him that well), turned into an EA. For about three months, I knew that this relationship was inappropriate. Even though I say it was an EA - it was probably a little more like a PA - even then. We never had sex at that point, but we kissed, etc. . . And, it's strange, I knew it was wrong to be kissing another man, but I couldn't stop. I know it sounds really lame when I put it taht way, but. . in order to make myself feel better, I kind of said "Well, it's not REALLY an affair if I didn't have sex with him." So, I guess in my mind I still kind of consider it an EA - when really it was probably a PA from the very beginning. <P>But anyway, the whole time the "EA" was going on, I would go out with the OM for only an hour or so, meet for drinks, talk, and inevitably I would rush out - knowing that it was wrong. But the next day the OM would email me or call me, and we'd get to talking and joking around, and for a while there, I kind of told the OM that we could be friends but nothing more. What a joke, anyway, he would call to see when we could go out again, and we'd go out, he would try to kiss me and I would say something like "friends don't kiss each other on the lips" and would leave. This went on for three months. There were times, I would try to keep it as friends only, and times, when I was very very stupid and would give in at some point.<P>So, I really was trying to do the right thing, but I just kept making one bad move after another, and I kept falling into the trap that was set. Yes, it was an affair at that point, I can't lie, but it all started out with a little joking and a little flirting - and then it just seemed to snowball out of control in no time flat. Basically, I had no self-control, could not say no (and I think that's where my "history" kind of got me into that pattern). I had lost the ability to say no - no to that last drink, no to the extra project at work, no to the OM.<P>Anyway, one night while the EA was going on, my H and I went out. I was a mess, all I could think about was the OM, I couldn't wait to talk to him the next day. Now, I hate my job, but I would make it in to work everyday, just so I could talk to the OM - I was hooked. But, I was always looking for someone to tell me what to do. I couldn't think straight. I wanted to confide in a friend but couldn't. I just wanted someone to say "don't do it" cause I couldn't. And, I'm not using that as an excuse, but somehow, I had gotten in so deep that I rendered myself powerless - really to do anything to stop it. <P>But, anyway, we were out at dinner one night and I asked my H "What would you do if I had an affair?" I was fishing for his reaction. And if I had any sense, I would have used that time to open up to him - before the EA went any further, but my H's response kind of surprised me. Of course I took it totally out of context - because that's how I was thinking back then - but he said "If that's what it took to keep you, go ahead." He was joking, but I saw that as the green light I needed to go ahead and sleep with the OM.<P>It's weird, it was like I was looking for my H to be my moral compass, I was serious, but he didn't know it - he had no way of knowing it. But, in a way, I wanted him to say "Affair, no way, I'd leave you so fast your head would spin." I wanted him to be appalled by the thought of me having an affair, and I guess what I got - or what I interpreted was that he really didn't care what I did, and that must have meant that he really didn't care about me. It's warped, I know.<P>So within about three months, the EA went to a PA. I had decided to take off work to think about things. My H knew I was under a lot of stress - but he thought it was about work, so he encouraged me to take the day off - no questions asked or anything. The OM took off work, too. And when it got to be the day before our scheduled meeting -well, I totally got cold feet, called the OM and told him I couldn't meet him. He asked why, etc. . .he knew I debated about this whole thing, but yet, he kept pursuing. He said that he understood, but he seemed mad. So, I thought some more and called him back the next day and said okay let's meet.<P>You can see how sad it really is. There were so many opportunities for me to do the right thing - to get out of this - to stop it, but I didn't and I don't know why. I gave in.<P>After that day, I really felt sleazy, felt dirty. What I had done was eating away at me - I really thought about all the lies, all the deception, and I just cried. I couldn't work the next day - I went in, but at work, I typed up a letter to my H confessing everything. I couldn't take it anymore, I couldn't take the lies and I just felt so cheap and dirty. So, I confessed, H forgave me, I went to confession, God forgave me, but, this all happened before I found this site, and really knew anything about how to end an affair, etc. . .<P>I ended up telling the OM that I told my H what had happened. And I think he (OM) was kind of shocked, and I think he thought my H was going to come after him that very day. But I never told my H who the OM was - and I told the OM that - another stupid mistake. So, OM thinks he still had a shot, and while I wanted it to end, again I was stupid. Even though I felt miserable over what I had done -crossed that line, everything - somehow the OM ad I keep our friendship going. He didn't call for a week, I guess to let the dust settle, but then he called and friendship, turned into another EA and led, ultimately, to another PA encounter. This was absolutely the worst.<P>Here I had gone and beared my soul to my H, I was sincerely and totally remorseful, I felt horrible, cried all the time. And I thought confessing the first time was hard - the second time, well, I thought my marriage was really over. But, my H, God love him, gave me a second (well, really third, I guess) chance. And I don't know what happened to me, but something changed after that second confession. I really wanted to figure out how I could have made the worst possible mistake of my life - not once, but twice. So, I immediately went to the bookstore and found every book that I could. I went on the Internet and did a search on infidelity, and by the grace of God found this site.<P>So, from day one since the EA started, I was waffling. Had I been a stronger person, I would have stopped the EA from ever starting - but I also had a number of opportunities to stop the affair mid-stream, but didn't. I don't have any good excuses. I don't have any reasons, I just wasn't good enough of a person at that time. It really didn't have a whole lot to do with my H - or what he did or didn't do - it was all about me - the reasons for the a, the cause, everything.<P>I guess the hardest part for me was that I knew it was wrong, went against my moral beliefs - and it was hard trying to reconcile that. I came up with all kinds of reasons to rationalize that I wasn't having an affair, but for me, when it went "all the way" that's when I knew I was in trouble and knew I had to do something, to make a decision.<P>After I confessed to my H the second time, I really did make a committment to myself to give it a year to see if I got any better. Thank God for this site, though, because the OM - even after I sent a HArley-like no contact letter -kept trying to contact me - after two months of no contact, six months, etc. . . There were times after that confession, the time at which I mark as entering recovery, that I had little setbacks. One time when the OM contacted me, he wanted to know if we could just talk occasionally, see how things were going with each other - in effect be friends. About three months into recovery, I made the mistake of thinking - yea, maybe this Harley stuff is good for some people, but not for me, I'm different, I can handle just keeping this a "friendship." So, I had contact with the OM for about two weeks - and I always told my H about the contact, but when it went on for two weeks - I had a hard time telling him, and didn't tell him until one time the OM jokingly asked me to come see his hotel room. Right then and there, something snapped within me, and I knew I could no longer be friends with this person. Harley was right, if I kept up contact, it would lead to the third most horrible mistake of my life - friendship, to EA to PA. My H gave me a second chance, even a third chance, and I just couldn't bear confessing one more time. I couldn't hurt him like that - especially after all the kindness and support he had shwon me. And it was then that I had to break the cycle.<P>And, I was a real whimp. I couldn't call the OM or send another no contact letter, so I just ignored him. He would send emails, I wouldn;t respond. I didn't answer my phone at work - only answered messages (OM never left messages). And that planned avoidance went on for about 4 months. I thought the OM had gotten the hint, but alas, he called me out of the blue one day, and it made me so uncomfortable that I told my H immediately. By this time, there was enough of a separation between me and the OM to give me some perspective. I didn't know if my marriage would survive or not, but I knew that I didn't want to be with the OM either. And, my H and I were really try to work things out, and it had gotten better between us - a lot better. So,that's when I sent another no contact letter. And that was six months ago, and I really doubt that I will ever hear form the OM again. Very, very good thing for a number of reasons I won't get into.<P>So, the whole on-off thing lasted from the day the EA started (I classify that as the first time I kissed him, because prior to that, really, he was just an acquaintance, and I NEVER gave him a second thought) and lasted for 5 months. And yes, alcohol did play a role in that first kiss, but I could have ended it before then - if I had had self-control. <P>Long answer to a short question, but did you expect anything less? ![[Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]](http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/wink.gif) <P>Alsohurt - My H knows that I post here. At the very beginning, I would show him my first few posts and the responses I got, and we would both start crying - because people were so kind and compassionate, and gave such good advice. At those early stages, (he doesn't like to type) I posted a response to someone early on from him. But after that, I just kind of did my own thing. But we would often talk about some of the posts, and it would help us in our own recovery.<P>When we reached one year in recovery (one year since that second confession), we had talked about doing a joint post to update everyone on how we BOTH were doing, but that hasn't panned out yet - we've just been so busy. <P>I know he would post an update if I asked him and I'll let you know when we get our act together for that one. We do a lot of talking at home, but he really doesn't feel the need to post like I do.<P>As for helping other people, everyone has been very kind to me, and accepting of me, and he knows that. One time, I got a little depressed - probably about 6 months into recovery, just the general I'm not good enough kind of thing you see from the WS every once in a while, and a lot of people responded to me - not only with advice, but in ways that I have helped them to see what I was going though - and how that helped them. I cried the whole way through that post - because, it really did make me feel like I wasn't this monster, this horrible person who had no redeeming qualities. I let my H read that thread, so I think he knows that I try to help people see things from this side, and I think he knows that it's kind of therapuetic for me - and keeps me going in the right direction. And, that makes him happy.
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