New Voyager, your aggravation with me is misplaced. I did read your posts and will quote what you said on this thread that bothered me: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But the other thing that I have noticed, although you down play it, is that although BS sometime acknowledge their role in the breakdown of the marriage, it seems only to be a small role and not a significant contributing force. The manner in which the query is posed: how could you do this to me, seems to deflect any personal responsiblity for the breakdown on the marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Unless I am missing something, the sentiment being expressed here is one of resentment that 'BS' in GENERAL, not specifically your situation, are not admitting their personal responsibility. Perhaps you could reword it to point to your specific situation and then it won't be so general as to bother me.<P>BTW, you may assume that because the words "Junior Member" appear beneath my name that I am a newcomer here. I am not. I have my own reasons for posting under a different name than I usually do, and there are many here who will probably recognize who I am from the name and from my writing style, but I have been here for quite some time (much longer than 4 months) and have read more tales of woe than you can possibly imagine.<P>Bottom line: No matter WHAT your spouse has done to you during your marriage, an affair is never justified. If you are unhappy, you leave, get a divorce, and then you can take up with anyone you wish. "How could you do this to me?" is a cry from the soul which says "The person that I swore a vow of fidelity with has broken that vow and it feels as if someone cut off my arm." There is NOTHING in that question that shirks responsibility for the problems in the marriage. Your remarks above very clearly state that you believe that the betrayed are downplaying their contribution instead of owning up to it. My last post stands as written - I read it again and feel it to be justified based on the words you yourself wrote. Perhaps I didn't know how much you read and I don't know your story - but I can read what you've written here, and it is pretty plain.<P>As for my anger - I am not angry. I am simply speaking my mind. And, as I don't know you, you equally do not know me - and therefore cannot know anything about my marriage and how I have dealt with it.<P>I am surprised that after four months of reading before posting that you don't understand that part of what we do here is release our hurt so that we don't bring it back into our marriages.<P>And that is all *I* am going to say about the matter. <P>sb

Dear New Voyager, I sense a great deal of anger and resentment in your posts...alot like my WS. As I mentioned earlier, I am not blameless and I think I speak for most BS's. Quite contrarily, I've told him many times how very sorry I am. I, as a BS, feel great pain for not having been able to nurture my marriage adequately enough to prevent the A. However, as a normal human being, the pain of betrayal is also just as real and severe. I emphasize that both are equally significant and difficult to endure.

I think everyone should back off of New Voyager. I'm glad she is here. I think that a careful reading of the MB material will support my position that her suggestions of what not to say to a Wayward are very valid and that her analysis of a breakdown of a marriage is true. Darn hard to hear, but true.<P>At no point in time does she say that an affair is a Betrayed's fault. She says only that the the Betrayed is partly responsible for the <B>breakdown of the marriage</B>.<P>I would suggest, New Voyager, that this particular thread might not have been the best place for your observations. This thread is more of a venting thread...<P>...and I'd like to add the things I didn't like hearing:<P>This is a lot like a combination of GraceLeigh's and ZZZ's. Came from my mom: <P>"Remember when your boss dropped by after the baby was born and you introduced [OW]? He thought there was something odd, too, I could tell, but I didn't want to say anything." <P>OW had been "my friend" as well. Right after the baby was born she had just dropped by to take the dog for a walk since I couldn't yet ("Oh, [H] is here? Well, we can both go...") when my boss dropped by with an office gift... <sigh> I felt like I was the laughing stock of all my friends, coworkers, and family...<P>*sigh*<P>Thanks for letting me speak.<BR>--HBC

"We can't take sides"<BR>excuse me sometimes we need to take sides, da, if it was there daughter they would take sides!

Wow. Well, I have to say that although she didn't say that the fault was with the betrayed, she did say the betrayed "downplay their responsibility." I think that might be the point of contention here. None of us have ever downplayed our responsibility when we have some. Check out Nyneve's "out of the blue" thread. I think you'll see lots of people kicking themselves.<P>And, I think the other point being made is that the topic of this thread is not "what not to say to the WS" - so the post was a bit like rubbing salt into an open wound, I would imagine, for many here.<P>JMNSHO.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Oh, and I forgot my contribution:<P>From our so-called 'friends' who had known about the affair for the year before I found out about it.<P>"Well, you gotta admit, you two have been in a pissing contest for the last five years. It shouldn't surprise you."<P>"He never ever said anything about actually LEAVING you."<P>"I'll bet you wish you had done more things with him back when you could have made a difference, huh?"<P>AAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!<P>With friends like those, I need ENEMIES?<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Most of the painful comments have come from my family, including:<P>"Well, stop selling yourself short. You could find someone so much better."<P>"Why do you always do what HE wants you to?" (as if I don't already feel stupid enough...)<P>"You know, there's this guy who works at my office I always wanted to introduce to you anyway..."<P>"Remember, men like their women to be attractive, so try to lose some weight after you have the baby or he'll keep straying."

The best I got was from a "friend" ie former firend who had invited H and OW to dinner - I asked her why? Her answer - "He is very unhappy and needs to know he still has friends" . Now, we are trying to get in to recovery - and she has asked H to dinner again - H asked could he bring me. Answer was "no". Guess H doesnt need friends right now. Even stranger - H could not understand why I (a) thought he should refuse the invitation (b) cwould not goto dinner with her anyway. <P>?????????????<P><BR>R