I don't know what OW looks like...my mind is simply filled with visions of them telling each other that they've found their soulmates. My days are filled with thoughts of their pledges of love to one another. I never believed anyone else would ever be his soulmate...how do you get through this in Plan A mode. I blew it last night by simply crying to him in pain...I tried not to LB, just simply asked him in his aloof state if he thought the pain of the truth was enough to punish me for what I didn't do for our marriage. Is this an LB in itself?<P>He seemed to soften for the first time in a long time and I seemed to have hardened.

Hello T,<P>Don't have any good responses for you, just wanted you to know we're out here and listening!<P>It's truly awful that the 24hr cinema in your head just can't be shut out. I've had the same experience. It is a special kind of pain, all its own and one that WS will never get. <P>I don't know if it's LB or not. Someone on another thread said that you know as soon as the words are spoken. No matter -- we all slip up. Must be human occasionally, right? <P>Snow

Terrified,<BR>Stop dwelling on the unknown, or even the partially known. It will drive you crazy. Whatever happened, happened, whatever words were said, actions taken between them are all in the past, you can't change it, your H can't change it.<P>As for soulmate...his soulmate is a woman who would do a married man. No honor in that. No character. Who would knowlingly choose a soulmate without honor or character? Affair "soulmates" are part of the fantasy that this is the flawless person who will make their problems go away. The problem with that is their personal problems don't go away, and even if the affair proceeds through divorce of the existing marriage to their own marriage...then they've got the responsibilities of house, accountability, and an ex-spouse, and usually kids as well. And, as I've pointed out, the OP has at least one flaw--they aren't scrupulous who they get involved with...and since they have invaded the fidelity of one marriage, where is the assurance that they won't do it with their own marriage? (or maybe already did if they were a married OP). <P>Being told your spouse loves someone else and is having sex with them is horrible. But it doesn't mean your marriage is doomed. If you can do Plan A, or, even Plan B, and do some waiting out of the affair, it is quite likely your spouse will start seeing a less glossy, less appealing side of the OP...because the statistical likelihood of the fantasy becoming reality through time is so miniscule.<P>I know what the OW looks like, it really is of no comfort to me that she is younger, taller, more slender, perhaps equally attractive, or moreso, depending on one's tastes. And those that post that the OW is not as attractive aren't happy about that either... <P>Anyway, try to sidetrack your thoughts to something else when she, or their relationship, pops into your mind. Or give yourself 5 minutes to think of everything horrible--even write down and tear it up, then move on. You can't do anything about that, or anything in the past, all you can control are your own currewnt thoughts, behaviors, and actions and plan and hope for the future.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

Terrified,<P><BR>((Hugs)) to you. When it comes to LBs, I have my own personal belief that when the EMR is going strong, all you have to do is look at the WS wrong and it's an LB. Not LB'ing doesn't mean completely holding back honesty or using your pain to "manipulate" your H into feeling guilty. So you felt sad, and in pain; you let your H know about your feelings. Maybe there could have been a better choice of words, maybe not. Anything the BS does that makes the WS feel guilt could be considered a LB, when in reality it is not. <P>As for what the OW looks like - I've been there myself. I've heard from friends that she's not as pretty as me and really nothing to look at. I know that she's taller and that her hair is straighter. But for the longest time, I just wanted to *see* her. To make her real in my mind, because I'd been in partial denial for quite a while. The feeling will subside and eventually pass, I assure you.<P>Hang in there, T,<P>belld<P>

Thanks Snow, BD, and Lor, Hugs to all of you for responding and helping to keep me above water. One quick question, is it an LB to ask to see his latest cell phone bill?

Lor's post was a gem - thankyou Lor! I've also got something to add to that - when I think of all my husbands faults I can't for the life of me see how ANYONE else could ever manage to put up with him the way I have. I can love him through his faults because we have such a history together - I know the reasons behind the faults and I can accept him for what he is. I bet you have the same feelings about your own husband? <P>The OW hasn't discovered all these faults of his, yet - because they are still living in this protective fantasy bubble. They might think they're soulmates, but we all know that's just complete tosh - they're in love with the IDEA of having a soulmate, which is completely different.<BR>Eventually - he will begin to see her faults, and she will begin to see his, the bubble with get more and more fragile and eventually burst - then Real Life with all it's problems will come rushing in. She won't be able to cope with his faults because she doesn't know the history behind them, and she can never be part of that history because he spent it with YOU, not her. <P>We used to have a lovely Great Dane called 'George' who gave us such a lot of fun over the 9 years of his life. The other day my husband was over at our house to pick the kids up, and he mentioned something funny that George had done once - we laughed together at the memory. Sharing memories such as these is just one of the things that he will NEVER be able to do with the OW, because she was never a part of it - and she never will be.<P>Keep strong,<BR>Paint

Terrified -<P>As a WS, there was a time when I thought I was in love with the OM, or that I was falling in love with him. It's odd really, when you compare my H to the OM - my H stood out head and shoulders above the OM. My H is definitely more handsome (when we first me, a mother of our friend who is a talent scout suggessted that he should go into modeling, he has classic, hansome good looks), my H is taller than the OM (a thing I like because I, too, am tall - the OM was an inch shorter than me - and when I was single, I never really dated anyone shorter than me, because it made me feel awkward.) My H is definitely more trustworthy, more mature (H is 37, I am 33, OM is 25), my H has his "act together," when you compare my H to the OM, I'm sure most of the ladies here would have picked my H over the OM - not only for his looks, but for his personality and character as well.<P>So, why was I attracted to the OM? Because of how he made me feel. It wasn't really the OM that I was attracted to, it was the feelings that the relationship gave me. And, I think that's why, at least in my case, a WS can be attracted to just about anyone. It doesn't mean that the OP is better, or prettier, or sexier, or funnier, or anything else than the BS - but the relationship tricked me into thinking that the OM was the best thing since sliced bread. And, now I know he's not. And, now that my H and I are in recovery, I am out of the fog and thinking clearly - the OM was just an average person - and maybe even a little less so because he was willing to pursue a married woman. I'm not going to judge him or anyone else, but for me, as a WS, it wasn't so much that I was attracted to the OM as I was attracted to the relationship and the way that it made me feel.<P>Soulmates. . .Personally, based on my background, I think I could have met and married any number of people. Every guy that I ever went out with, I thought I loved him, that this was the one. . .but something would happen, things would go awry, and I'd be left seraching for another soul mate. Until I met and married my H - that's when I should have stopped, because really, he IS my soulmate - he loves me for who I am and not what I did - that's all I ever really wanted, needed. Because of what we went through, I know how really stupid I was to almost lose the one person who truly loved me for who I am. And, it scares me to think about everything I did, and everything I did to him.<P>So, I guess my point is, at least from my perspective, after having gone through this, that it's not so much the person, but the relationship. I thought the OM was going to be my knight in shining armor, and save me from all of the stress and pressure I was under, and in reality, I guess I kind of thought of him as my soulmate (but I feel like puking when I say that now)- because, when I was with him, I didn't have to think about bills, dirty laundry, mortgages, broken down cars, etc. . .I could just be care free, stress free. But, to me, an affair is an abnormal relationship. It would have never survived the way it was whether I stayed with my H or went with the OM. And, I guess I finally relaized that even if I went with the OM - my soulmate - I would still have the same problems I have now - because most of it was internal. And, the OM, would have been gone at the first sign of trouble, I'm sure of it.<P>So, I know it's hard not to think about the OW, but don't think of it as your H (I know he thinks she's he's soulmate) has finally found "ture love" - true love is what you are doing right now to save your marriage. He doesn't know it now and cannot possible appreciate it, but someday he will know and appreciate it, and appreciate you for who you are and what you tried to do (even if your marriage doesn't survive).<P>The affair won't last forever - one way or another it will end. In fact, as soon as it hits the light of day, it loses most of its "magic" and allure. And the rest, well, it just takes time - at least for me - away for the OM to really learn that he was not my soulmate. It is scary, though to think I felt that way at one time. . .

Dear Fellow Adulterers/Spouses of Adulterers,<P>I came accross this site by accident and am fascinated. As a European, this discussion strikes me as altogether odd, perhaps even false--but I don't know. Why exactly would Terrified find the vision of her husband and his lover so excruciating? I always encourage my wife to have lovers--she is lazy and usually shows little interest. However, the idea of her in bed with another man has either no effect on me or is mildly arousing. I have affairs. Everyone I know has affairs. The girlfriend of Francois Mitterand, the former President of France, was adored by the French people. Why is it that only Americans (and Germans, but nevermind) fail to manage this perfectly human and normal experience. The thought of going through a marriage without affairs is unthinkable! What a torture--it is affairs that make marriage bearable when otherwise it could not be.<P>And that is to say, in response to one of the messages, that of course affairs end when they are "in the light of day". That is exactly correct, which is why affairs should not as a rule reach the light of day, excepting exceptional cases such as the good President's. For most, affairs are timeless gardens in which imagination and poetry and delight culminate in rapture and transcendence. Temporarily of course. One knows this in the beginning, even when the love is unbearable. Only idiots believe that marrying the lover would have dramatically different results than any other marriage, though there are cases. Perhaps that is at the root of the American incompetence: affairs are viewed as both less than what they are (by the spouses, friends, society) and more than what they are (by the adulterers). <P>My great-grandfather, a Greek, was married and then found his love in a Belgian nurse. The nurse came to live with him and his wife, and so, in an enormous house and surgery in Athens, they lived for decades, all having their share of privacy. My father grew up here, his own mother having left my grandfather for another man, with whom she lived in passionate love for over forty years, and who became the only grandfather I knew. The house was happy, full of people, extended family--and of course, much family turmoil, arguments, divisions, reunions: the stuff of life and love. When the nurse died my great-grandmother phoned the relatives to summon them to comfort her grieving husband, whom she deeply respected and admired, however much they could not have a love-based marriage. This is dignity.<P>These messages, and the articles on this site, read as though everyone here could not understand that they are more caught in a cultural trap than a psychological one. There are alternatives ways of being, though it must be unrealistic to expect your culture to adopt them. Even thus, I cannot believe that these methods are correct even for you. There is too much self-inflicted suffering, shallow compassion, no understanding of love (behaviorism reduces love to a seed fed to a bird!). In order to be happy, according to these texts and conversations, a kind of prison must be built around the marriage relationship: and herein lies happiness! What human being can live like this?<P>Terrified: allow your husband to have his affair. Ask him what he can bring from the affair that you would like (perhaps he has more energy, more sexual desire, heat radiating from his body), and ask him to share it. If he will not, let him be, people go through these things like moods, but overall passion is an elixir for the soul. When the affair ends, if you are still upset, tell him what your revenge shall be and like a goddess, extract it! Then finished. Next time you have an affair, if you are inclined. In any case, you will see that affairs, IF LEFT ALONE TO DEVELOP ACCORDING TO THEIR NATURE, will benefit the marriage, not harm it. The harm is caused by too much Sturm und Drang around these things. Remember, compassion is one of the most divine possibilities that we have, it builds dignity and character and spreads goodness in the world. If you understand the affair, based on love as it supposedly is, to be a good thing--and how could it possibly not be good if it is based on love--then you can develop your compassion and patience, forgive Cupid his mischievousness, and focus on some other important tasks in your life for the moment. Far better than this impotent gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair, and the righteous talk about affairs as abnormal, of all things.<P>Be well. <P>------------------<BR>Dissenting

Terrified,<BR>Knowing doesn't help much...In my insecurity, I used to occasionally dream of my husband with someone else (pretty vivid dreams) but she never had a face. I know all too well what H's OW looks like...now the dreams have a face. And, not only that, but because I've recently began having sexual relations again with my H, anything "different" that he does get added to the dreams of him and her together. I understand all to well your "need to know." On another thread I recently brought up that I keep asking questions of H that have very painful responses. It's because he still thinks she's such a wonderful human being. <P>Under the heading that "we often get what we need when we need it," THANK YOU SKM. Your perspective gives me new hope when I needed it greatly! I find myself wondering why make the effort to compete with his "ideal" woman...I can never compete with his fantasy. Maybe I can find the strength to hang on for another day praying that reality will come.<BR>G.

Phil,, where is your compassion for understanding different cultures and understanding that we only have what our current society finds to be acceptable to work with? While I do not understand your culture I would not go to a board where infidelity is condoned to go preach to them about why they should do as I do... to be truly compassionate and understanding is to accept others as they are,,, I do believe that this is what Jesus, Buddah and other prophets have tried to teach us... love and respect your fellow brothers... please try to understand that your viewpoint here might not be very productive and your intolerance coming off as a bit arrogant... <BR>have a nice day!

Dear Terrified,<P>Like a bad nightmare that won't end is how it was at the beginning. I never really saw OW's face. H took me near where they were so that I could see that he broke up with her. Right the 2nd time and it didn't last 1 hour. She called within one hour of the breakup. Hmph...<P>What I did see was my H walking what appeared to be arm in arm with another woman. That was heartwrenching more than the nightmares. <P>Honey, don't stress. Tell yourself whatever you need to make yourself feel better. Whether she is actually pretty or ugly is not the point. The EA is the strong pull and that is where the enemy lies. Physical features even the PA is not the one that pulls the heart strings. PA pulls other strings but they can be CUT!!!! Snip snip!!<P>EA's are the worse. They last longer since they are built and thrive on fantasy. Don't hurt yourself in their fantasy world. You are not welcome there. They will use you and throw you out. That is what OPs and WSs do in the fog. No concern for you or your feelings. <P>Your thoughts are not their concern at the moment so you are actually spitting in the wind. The backlash is yucky..<P>Focus on where it will make a difference. Yourself and your family. The others will catch up later. Don't play in the fog, you will only get hurt. <P>Please take care,<BR>L.<P><BR>

Wow, Phil... for a well-educated man, you show little cross-cultural understanding, regardless of your call to us to 'break out of our cultural biases.' And, you show little sensitivity to the pain of others.<P>This is a "Marriage Builders" website. It attracts, supports and comforts people ALL OVER THE WORLD who are having difficulty in their marriages - this particular forum is the central posting area for those who need the support of others who understand how painful it is when the people who swore vows of fidelity to us betray that vow. <P>Speaking of vows ... Did you, by any chance, take vows of fidelity when you married? And, did you, at any point, actually intend to honor them? It sounds to me that if you DID promise to love, honor and cherish your wife, forsaking ALL others, until death do you part, that you have no concept of what a promise or contract actually is... how sad that your own personal "satisfaction" is more important than making a real family in a global community.<P>Something that you should understand: This is not a place to ease your boredom, it is not a place to afford you amusement, and it is not a place where your views on affairs will ever be welcomed. This is a serious discussion forum and we are all here because we know that infidelity - affairs - are detrimental to marriage and to life itself... condoms do not 100% protect from AIDS, you know - and herpes is forever.<P>Perhaps YOU should break out of YOUR cultural biases and try fidelity. It is something to be proud of, and I'll bet your wife would become a different person if you took the energies you give to others and gave them to her. Affairs such as you describe are for people who are too ego-centric and lazy to put energy into their marriages and make them exciting and new every day.<P>Before you condemn us using the narrow framework of your world, realize that we are all from different worlds and come together here because we all share the same pain... the pain of infidelity.<P>sb<BR>

Hi T,<P>I thought about your post today and wanted to add another reply. In regards to the 'vision' of the OP. <P>Try this. Imagine someone any hair color, nationality, height, etc. you choose. Now imagine them with their face mushed up against a glass window pane. Ok? That's what the OP looks like. Not a pretty sight right? As long as they are in the A, that's what they look like. Regardless of how nice they might look before the A, for now they look like they have mushed their face, personality and life up against a mirror and even Cindy Crawford wouldn't look good. <P>Hope this makes you feel better. It sure helps me. <P>L.