Hello All,<P>The first couple weeks after my wife kicked me out felt great. Yes, there was still emotional turmoil, and anger, and guilt, but not having the burden of lying all the time, of going back and forth, not being able to make up my mind what to do, that was a great relief. And it's still a relief, though in the meantime a kind of depression is slowly settling. Tomorrow I pick up our two children (2 1/2 and 9 months) to have them for the weekend, and I know it'll be harder than it's been to face them, knowing that having a affair ripped up their family. <P>But it's still not all guilt. I am plenty angry with my wife, and with myself for not realizing through some other means how unhappy I had been in our marriage. Unlike much of what's written in these pages, I am not sure that I really married out of love: a kind of love, certainly, but in my case it also had something to do with fear of losing her, a fear that has followed me through life with women but that isn't based in much more than childhood expierences and anxiety--self-centered things, not love. I wasn't sure I wanted marriage, and I know now that I was already unhappy, getting well under the level of affection that I need, and feeling besieged for various inadequacies I thought she was attributing to me. Being in the middle of a dissertation that I felt badly about didn't help, and that went on for several more years.<P>She gave me a date and an ultimatum--though she didn't say our relationship would end or we would marry, only that she then wanted to have some other kind of ceremony, something among friends. But I knew, absolutely knew, that once the window is passed eventually the relationship falls apart. I had experienced it before, where my girlfriend left afterwards through an affair (which has lasted, but then we weren't married). So I asked her to marry me, doing my best not to think at all, much less admit to my feelings of having been cornered.<P>So there's been this ambivalence in me since the start. And even when we first started dating, ten years ago, I had tremendous reservations about the woman I would marry. I never felt like we connected emotionally or intellectually, and the sex--I wanted ethereal, she'd been used to hard-core: it took me aback and kind of repulsed me, but in time I got addicted to it, to the whole pornographic imagery of it, until, through a genuinely tender, non-sexual affair I realized how repulsed I had become by it all, how badly I had deceived myself and her, and betrayed the person I at least perceived myself to have been. Too late for that person now, because as all of this testimony demonstrates, even the best affairs are ugly at least in equal measure to their sweetness.<P>So I'm out of the house, hate myself because of the kids, and yes, miss my wife, who over the years has really gotten to be my indispensible companion, however much I have hated the sex (and really, I only have about two good memories from ten years of being together). I've hurt her beyond measure, don't think I'll ever forgive myself, never knew I was capable of such thoughtlessness and cruelty, and at the same time I love the woman I had the affair with, and continue to communicate with her, help her in her work, etc.--though she lives a thousand miles away with three countries in-between (we live in Europe). My own work takes me to her country for about six weeks a year, for at least the next year, and no, there is absolutely no way I can quit my job, none whatsoever. Academics cannot jump around like people in other professions, and I just started here and need to stay in the position for at least three years in order to even be qualified to go to another university.<P>So ..... having said all that--too much, I apologize, but it seems SOOO important to me--does anyone have any good advice? Esp., what have you all figured out about compatibility. I have just no faith at all that I could ever feel love for my wife during sex--if that had been true just during the course of the last year's affair, that would be another thing, but it's been true all along. And affection, well, she once said she could work on it. And she's acknowledged the quasi-pronographic nature of her sexual identity .... but that does not seem relevant to me: the intuitive, basic tie that defines romantic love just isn't there and hasn't been, but for some rare, rare moments. (For a week once we managed playful sex, and that was great.) So am I kidding myself, and torturing everyone more by not just saying we must divorce and on the spot (my father's advice), or should I ask that this separation be a trial separation (my mother's advice), and see where the next few months lead? Right now she won't speak with me and is very nasty--not that I can blame, her--and it taking various well-crafted forms of revenge, including undermining me with colleagues. Well, anyway ....<P>Thanks

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wantotry?:<BR><B><BR>So ..... having said all that--too much, I apologize, but it seems SOOO important to me--does anyone have any good advice? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yup. Lose the contact with the OW, so you'll start getting de-fogged, instead of blaming your W for your misery. Trust me, the fog is a wonderful thing to lose...<P>AGG

What do you mean, "fog"? You mean the feeling of being in love?

Hi <B>wantotry?</B>,<P>Welcome to Marriage Builders! <P>Please read these two links before you do anything else --><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi10_tour.html" TARGET=_blank>Tour of Marriage Builders</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome</A><P>Then, look through these links:<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counsel Link</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>What Are Plan A and Plan B</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>POJA</A><P>You have some work ahead of you! <P>Right now, you feel some anger toward your wife for making you feel like you had no choice but to find someone else to meet your needs.<P>Your affair is YOURS, not hers. She is responsible for her part in making the marriage less than wonderful, but has <B>NO PART</B> in the infidelity. <B>NONE</B>. That's yours alone!<P>Yes, you need to quit your job. I cheated and worked with the OM, at a college, like you. I thought we could find a way to work together -- we COULD NOT!!! I know all the reasons... but they don't count here. Would you wife rather suffer financially together, or have things better financially while you continue to work with the OW. Every time you go to work, you rub salt in her wound. It's like you're cheating daily. I know you aren't, not really, but to the betrayed spouse, it seems like it.<P>Why do I know? I was also betrayed by my ex-H, five times.<P>Listen to us. It may not "feel good" but we know what we're talking about!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wantotry?:<BR><B>What do you mean, "fog"? You mean the feeling of being in love?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The feeling that your OW can walk on water, the feeling of euphoria and butterflies whenever you see her or think of her. The feeling that comes only because you and she are on your best behaviors, watering each other's lawn to ensure that it is greener than the one in your own yard, with your Givers fully in control, without having to deal with any realities of life because your unsuspecting spouses (OW is married too, right?) are taking care of the house, watching the kids, paying the bills, and have the audacity to be cranky when you come home late, even though you were late because you needed a short rendezvous with the OW. You know, the FOG!<P>AGG<BR>

Wanttotry?<P>I always suggest counseling with the Harley's, via phone---call the office (888-639-1639) or <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>visit this link</A> and email them.<P>If you're not willing to try that, I'd strongly urge you to read "Surviving an Affair", which is available at the bookstore here. By "defogged", we mean that you're currently wrapped up in the addictive nature of an affair. You won't be able to make rational decisions about your marriage until you end the affair and go through a typical "withdrawal" period. You are "in love" right now with the OW. But there's little chance that it will turn into a lasting relationship. There's no reason that you can't get the "in love" feelings that you want in your marriage, even if they didn't exist previously. You simply (both) have to work at it. <P>I would suggest that you get clean. End the affair. See if your wife is willing to work through the MarriageBuilder's principles to rebuild the marriage. Even if she isn't, you should be attempting to Plan A her (a bit reversed---but that's the advice for whoever shows up here).

Thanks Sheryl. I don't work with the woman I had the affair with, however. She's a thousand miles north, I just have my research in her country, so I would have the opportunity to see her then. <P>Oh, yes, THAT fog. But that was over quite a while ago. I mean, that's the same as anyone falling in love, it can't last, and it's stressful, and a relief when it ends. I start to feel fogged when I consider trying intimacy with my wife, and completely crazy when I contemplate the consequences of divorce for my kids. But I have no illusions that the affair could turn into another marriage, or that even at an emotional level it would be desirable. <P>Like I said in the original message, as genuine as it has been, I see the affair as a wake up call to the realities of my marriage, my own self-deceptions, and the deceptions practiced on my spouse prior to the affair. The question I had was about compatibility. Of course the affair is mine, my wife had nothing to do with it, please, I don't need patronizing, or cookie cutter advice.

Sorry, I must have misread that part about working together... hmmm... sometimes that happens in the fervor to offer advice quickly...<P>K brings up something that I found difficult when I came here. Usually, it is the BS (betrayed spouse, your wife) who would Plan A YOU. But since YOU came here, as I did as the WS (the infidel), it is YOU that will have to begin Plan A. I faught against it because it WASN'T FAIR... dammit, my ex was suppose to fight for ME! But he didn't. <P>You <B>CAN</B> bring love into the marriage, even if there wasn't love to begin with. There is something to the concepts here, if you work them. You know, like the 12 Step programs -- work them. Did you get a chance to read through Plan A? Do it, and let me know what you think, okay??<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Dear Fellow Adulterer,<P>I congratulate you on your honesty. The fact is, affairs are fun. Miserable, lead to unhappiness sometimes, but great fun, and can nourish the soul. What a lot of people here don't want to admit is that affairs are not meant to replace marriages but complement them. In your case, you had a difficult marriage to begin with but didn't have the insight and fortitude to admit it. This was your weakness, and a little self-contempt on that score can't hurt. You should not have married your wife until you were absolutely sure you wanted to and that it was a free choice. Now you are stuck with the consequences of being weak at the time. Okay. The question is, where do you go from here. With kids in the mix, you are right that you ought to give things a shot. Sounds like your wife is a good lady--whatever misgivings you have, and they do sound serious and not to be underestimated or dismissed (really, folks, just look at what he wrote). Yet, you don't know what the possibilities are until you try.<P>Go to it!

Wanttotry?,<P>You appear to have pretty poor marital skills. And your wife does too. Unfortunately, in most cultures marriage "skills" aren't really taught with any seriousness.<P>The Marriagebuilder's approach is centered around rebuilding romantic love through the use of appropriate marital behaviors. It's pretty simple, straightforward, "cookie-cutter" advice. But I've never seen it fail for anyone who's used the advice correctly (although not all marriages have been saved).<P>You have two children. They're lives will be significantly impacted for the worse should the two of you divorce. I suggest that you put aside your needs for a short while and try to center yourself on the marriage. It's the most important thing you'll ever do. I see you quoting your job as an issue---you can't leave it because academics is "different". That's simply an excuse. If you're good enough, you'll be able to get a university position pretty much anywhere. If you're not good enough, then perhaps a change of career will do you good.<P>Get focused on the things that are important. Your children. Your wife. Your marriage.

Sorry to be patronizing...<P>You know, if you want to divorce your W, I won't try to stop you. I just don't like it when people have an affair FIRST, and THEN decide that their marriage sucks. Sorry, my W did this to me, and that was before she told me that there was ANYTHING wrong with our marriage, and I "failed" to read her mind. <P>If you're sure your marriage is hopeless (which it may be, I dunno), then work on it or end it, but don't involve third parties... BTW, IS the OW married?<P>Regarding the whole issue of compatibility and comparison shopping, have a look at some posts by Sad_n_Lonely, aka ConfusedinMI. He too had/has and affair, and then started convincing us that his marriage is hopeless, and since he found a better deal, it is "against nature" to not act on it. Whatever. <P>Sorry for the cookie-cutter responses, but actually the reason Harley stuff works so well is that all affairs ARE in fact cookie-cutter, and thus so are the steps to recover from them. Provided, of course, that the first step is "no contact" with the OP.<P>AGG<p>[This message has been edited by AGoodGuy (edited May 17, 2001).]

Hi Sheryl,<P>Well, it sounds like we're more in Plan B already. I mean, I'm out of the house. Only it's on very cold, distant, warlike terms, on her part that is. Like I said, before someone wants to throttle me, I don't blame her. I haven't described the twists and turns of the blade in this affair, but she's suffered enough to justify a lot of what she's done, baring perhaps the physical attacks, but even that's understandable. I caused it, I'm CLEAR about that.<P>But on plans, well, we're in neither then. I can look past her vindictiveness, so I don't think I need to be trained to see her authentically--and I think a lot of the discussion around this site does seem to imply that this is all about training, which I simply cannot accept. <P>But OK, I think I can almost manufacture some belief that some of these techniques could work. Then I need to figure out where to start: she's drawn up a draft separation agreement, won't talk to me, is as unpleasant as she can be when we must cross each other as when trading the children, and has absolutely no motivation to listen to any more long talk from me about what I want, what I'm doing, how I love her, and so on. <P>

Wanttotry?<P>Engage her in a conversation as to what SHE wants---what requirements you would need to meet to move home. Let her know that you're sorry (have you apologized), that you're willing to take the appropriate measures to regain her trust, and that you want to make the marriage and your family a priority.<P>If you can demonstrate to her that you have HER best interests at heart, she'll be willing to listen to your issues. Without that, you're not going anywhere.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wantotry?:<BR><B>she's drawn up a draft separation agreement, won't talk to me, is as unpleasant as she can be when we must cross each other as when trading the children, and has absolutely no motivation to listen to any more long talk from me about what I want, what I'm doing, how I love her, and so on. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let's see, you are still in contact with the OW, right? So why are you surprized that your W is unpleasant to you?<P>This may sound cookie-cutter again, but I think you need to stop (at least temporarily) thinking about yourself and put yourself in your W's shoes for a minute. Would you like what you see then?? Look at how many "I" statement you make above... What about HER? It's not all about you!<P>AGG

Well, <B>Wantotry?</B>,<P>I guess my first question would then be: Do you want to save your marriage - and I think you do, because you're here! <P>So, let's assume that you do. What to do next? Here's my advice:<P>Begin a solid Plan A. Yes, it's more difficult away from the house, but it can be done. You may not realize this, but Plan A is as much for you as it is for her, or even the marriage.<P>What is it, exactly? It is a specific plan to take care of yourself, your psyche, and make your marriage a safe place to come back to - for both of you really. She's not making it easy for you by doing things like drawing up a sep agreement, but still, it can be done. If you honestly do want to begin this route, I would suggest you get professional support, like the counseling available here on this site. Why? Because the Harley's work on restoring the marriage FIRST. You could, of course, use a counselor you find where you live, but so often they work on you alone, and by the time you've figured out a few things the marriage is over and you never got the chance to work on it. I know this, I lived it!! <P>You sound like an intelligent, thoughtful guy with a lot to save. You have children - did you say how old they are? I don't remember - but if they are younger children, they REALLY need their parents together. <P>As you can tell, my marriage did not survive. I attribute that to several things, but mostly to the fact that neither one of us was strong enough to fight for the marriage alone. There came a point where I personally "hit the wall"... if you are there - and I don't think you are yet - then I would say "leave the marriage knowing you did the best you could to save it". But you aren't there yet, are you?<P>Best wishes as you begin this rocky road... it's painful, it's difficult, but soooooo worth it when you get to the end, whether your marriage survives, or not. But of course, we hope it DOES!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phil Graham:<BR><B>Dear Fellow Adulterer,<P>I congratulate you on your honesty. The fact is, affairs are fun. Miserable, lead to unhappiness sometimes, but great fun, and can nourish the soul. What a lot of people here don't want to admit is that affairs are not meant to replace marriages but complement them. In your case, you had a difficult marriage to begin with but didn't have the insight and fortitude to admit it. This was your weakness, and a little self-contempt on that score can't hurt. You should not have married your wife until you were absolutely sure you wanted to and that it was a free choice. Now you are stuck with the consequences of being weak at the time. Okay. The question is, where do you go from here. With kids in the mix, you are right that you ought to give things a shot. Sounds like your wife is a good lady--whatever misgivings you have, and they do sound serious and not to be underestimated or dismissed (really, folks, just look at what he wrote). Yet, you don't know what the possibilities are until you try.<P>Go to it!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are you serious? Lord, it was the worst time of my life!! Yeah, I thought I'd found my "soul mate" but really he was just a co-worker who saw an opportunity to draw me in at the most vulnerable time of my life. Was it fun hiding and telling lies and touching someone who wasn't my H of 19 years? No, it was different and somewhat exciting at the time, but so is trying to beat a train or sky diving without a parachute or taking drugs, right? <P>Pa-leeze!<P>

I agree that ending a marriage with an affair is particularly poor behavior. That's how my mother did it, though she too was clear that the affair was a means to an end. And paranthetically, she and my father have been great friends almost ever since and we now regularly meet together in various places. So divorce can work out, after many trials.<P>In terms of the previous conditions, well, I do have my journals and memories, so I'm not in any particular quandary about what the truth about the past was. And I haven't said it was all terrible. In fact, much was good, and the genuine caring is deep and mutual. The question is, what is a marriage made of? I am quite certain I would have used the affair to supercede my ambivalence (hence inability to act against the marriage prior to the affair) had it not been for the fact that we have two children, and at the time that the affair started my wife was pregnant. Had we been childless, I would surely have left her--in fact, SHE left within a month, jumped a few countries away, and only careful coaxing and lying brought her back. A few months later she fled to the States with the kids, and I followed and spent three months trying to get her back to Europe, which she finally did, and in the meantime she's tried throwing me out once prior to succeeding. She's a leaver, I'm a clinger (an odd type of clinger, I admit). <P>Sure, the affair would have ended--and no, the other woman is not married, and yes, she is prepared to pursue a relationship and has made it particularly easy by accepting the kids and establishing a good relationship with the older one. <P>But I agree, it would not over the long haul work out, and I know several very clear reasons for this, though that does not affect my affections, and why should it.<P>So I'm jsut not quite sure where to being. I've tried all the b******t, and that landed me in my own apartment, and now it's the boy who cried wolf situation: you remember, he gets eaten in the end: it's human nature, you only fall for the same tricks so often. Usually that's when you know you've lost your instinct to tell a lie from the truth, a condition I managed to inflict on my usually very perceptive wife. <P>Aside from convincing her, the other problem is convincing myself. Some of you say that having no contact with the other woman is the first step, which is fine, and not so hard to achieve--she and I have already had this conversation and she's fully prepared to accept my decision to go for my marriage, especially for the sake of the children. As she is prepared to fly into my arms--but as a Scandinavian she's got enough self control to back off easily, it's normal, and I would only have to ask once. And I don't feel like I can't live without her.<P>But then WHAT? Doing that is hardly a magic bullet.

Thanks, Sheryl, I really appreciate your sincerity. Not sure what hitting the wall means, but if it implies loosing all control, then, no we're not there. And we have plenty to save. The kids are 2 1/2 and 9 months. What I was trying to say in previous messages was that TELLING my wife that I am committed to her, to saving the marriage etc. isn't going to cut it. I've done that, too often, she sees I have divided affections and heads out. So I've got to figure out how to reach her some other way. OK, I may try the phone therapy. <P>Thanks again.

Just a quick reply: hitting the wall, to me, means that you have done all that you can to save your marriage and you, for whatever reason (whether you are the BS or WS) you simply cannot continue in the marriage.<P>In my case, I hit the wall. My ex hadn't really been working too hard at it anyway (he had his 5th OW, beginning 8 months before I filed for divorce).<P>Some here have been working for YEARS at restoring love... and at times it has been with a spouse who is already living with the OP. Check out posts by <B>Lostva</B>, <B>Lor(Lor)</B>, <B>Sheba</B> and <B>K</B>'s story too... all of them have differing stories, yet successful in their own ways.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wantotry?:<BR><B>What I was trying to say in previous messages was that TELLING my wife that I am committed to her, to saving the marriage etc. isn't going to cut it. I've done that, too often, she sees I have divided affections and heads out.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>...Which is EXACTLY why I said in my very first post to you to DO something to show your W that you are committed to her. Losing the OW would be a very clear sign, as a start.<P>I am confused, to be perfectly honest... Are you, or are you not, committed to your W and to saving the marriage? First you said the marriage is hopeless, now you say that you are committed? Now do you see why the presence of a third party (and the fog) is so disruptive to your efforts?<P>I'm glad you're thinking of trying counseling. I'm glad you are investing the time in saving your marriage. These steps will be greatly enhanced by not having an OW in the picture, who, no doubt, "only wants you to be happy".<P>AGG