I like this quote someone here made: "The thing to keep uppermost in your mind is this: Are you meeting your partner's need for attention, affection, admiration and conversation in ways that are important to your partner - so that your partner won't feel unloved, unimportant nor neglected???"<P>Long ago, I wrote my wife a letter, this is what I wrote: (Short Version)<P>"Dear *******,<P>I love you very much. If you don't feel that you love and desire me as I feel about you, I love<BR>you enough to let you go.<P>I just want real love in a marriage produces passion, fun, romantic and kind to each other. I want my marriage to happy with full of romance, affections and have a wonderful passionate affair. I want you to be part of my life and enjoy your time with me.<P>I am very aware that you don't want to make love and I have felt that you feel obligated to have sex with me. I can tell the way you kiss me and I just don't feel that wants and desires in your kisses. You know how many times I know you want to get the intercourse "over with". Its a shame because it makes me feel insecured and unhappy to know that you don't love me romantically and sexually. I just don't feel your passion and aggressiveness sexually. I am sure you remember how many times you don't want to shut off the tv and have a romantic evening together. And how many times you fell asleep on me while I tried to have a romantic evening. Its just that I feel you don't love and desire me anymore. <P>Love, *******"<P>I only live in this life once and it is getting harder for me to enjoy life as long as I live like this. My life is stressful enough. I work 2 jobs and I get involved with my kids activities as much as I can. I do my share of chores when I have time (I do most of the grocery shopping, yard work and do my share of the housework) but it is hard to because I work 60 to 70 hours a week. I need time for "myself" when I have little free time. Many times I am afraid to open up emotionally and sexually with my wife because I am afraid of getting hurt. I know she tries but I just feel that she don't feel the same way as I feel. <P>

Scottishman-<P>That ws a very nice letter! Thank you for sharing. When I read what you wrote I did become aware of something. My H and I did not kiss much any more-still don't actually-and the one thing he did say about his affair was "she did like to kiss". OUCH-it still hurts.<P>The reason I have for not liking to kiss him is that he chews. Now let me state he would never ask for a kiss while he had chew in his mouth but most waking hours that was just it. He had chew in his mouth! It became and has remained so that we kiss very seldom-or not as affectionately as possible-becasue he chews.<P>I am thinking..........................maybe if I start kissing him-really kissing him-he might slow down on the chewing..............................<P>I have to get to work on this Thanks a bunch!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

heartache:<P>You know my wife had an affair. Well, in my marriage I was busting my [censored] trying to meet her needs. All my friends and coworkers knew exactly what a devoted husband I was. And you know what? My wife was doing a pretty crappy job of meeting my needs as well. Not too dissimilar to what you've described, in principle.<P>The problem isn't your effort. But it <I>may be your aim.</I> Now, there are cases of affairs which happen where the betrayed spouse is really being "terrific" (9.8 out of 10), and the wayward spouse has an affair simply because they haven't learned how to protect themselves from that situation. You might fall into that (small) category. But I saw from your post that you clearly weren't up on the "Rule of Quality Time". And if your husband says that he didn't think you loved him---then I'm sure he didn't feel like a priority. So the money that you earn, the beautiful house you keep, the great job you do with the kids---those might not be the important things. Maybe it's an hour or two of wild and enthusiastic sex a week. Maybe it's playing golf with him. Or telling him what a terrific job he's doing at work.<P>In my marriage, my aim was off in regards to my wife's needs. And I was lovebusting about my needs not getting met, which really drove our situation downhill. It didn't justify her affair---but it helped that I was able to assess my situation (with Steve H's help) in a detached and analytical manner.<P>And to give you another illustration (and it hammers home Steve's point in the article). My wife is reasonably fluent in "Harleyspeak". We've done the LB and EN questionnaires millions of times (at least it'll feel like that to her). I have her list of emotional needs memorized, in order (Family, Conversation, Financial, Affection, Honesty). But you what's really her #1 Emotional Need? It's not on the list---it's Admiration. (I bet like your husband). It'd be great if she'd just fill out the damn form, and give it to me on a silver platter. But she didn't. And it's taken me a while to reach this conclusion, with trial and error (and input from Jenn and Steve).<P>That's why I chimed in here. It takes some time, some experiements, and some luck to hit on the right receipe. But I believe it's important not to sit back and wait, but to hit this head-on.

heartACHE (so sorry rushed through that last post)<P><I>NOPE-I didn't cause the affair my husband chose to have-he did!!!!</I><P>your absoultly correct but i wasnt talking about the affair, i am talking about the marriage. you know the one, the one your trying to save??<P>i am going to mangle this concept but one of the ideas that the MB concept present is that as an individual you could be killing yourself giving to your spouse something that they dont even recognize as being "for them" let alone what they need from you.<P>I did this to such a high degree that it all but destroyed me as a human being, and as it turns out was the exact opposite of what she really desired from me so it turned in to this awful cycle of distruction that not only almost ended our marriage but it also robbed me of so much of my self that i envisioned that life for her and the kids would be better if i just didnt exist.<P>so i get that you gave and gave and gave, i also get that people dont always want or need what your giving.

K-<P>I thank you for all you put on paper for me to read! It did leave a lot of room for me to think more openly about things.<P>I plan to never stop working on my marriage!<P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

heartache:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I plan to never stop working on my marriage!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's terrific. I hope that you can figure out how to work <I>effectively</I> and <I>efficiently</I> at your marriage, as well. Your husband probably only has a couple key emotional needs that would really fill his lovebank---and I'm guessing that they're not nearly as taxing as being supermom and scrubbing the kitchen floor daily. The important thing is to identify the ones that really make a big impact, for the effort---and then become an enthusiastic expert in meeting them.<P>And it's something that I still am working on---so it's not always easy. I tend to take the "try them all" approach, and that can lead to burnout and a less than satisfactory job of meeting the important ones. Take your time, and pace your efforts---it's important to be consistant.

chaz-<P>I am reading what you are writing but I sitll feel a little bit lost.<P>According to what my H told me when we first met I am doing and giving the things he wants in life.<P>I thinking my struggle here is this:<P>I have always loved my H-and showed it-maybe not to his exact specs had he been asked but nonetheless I have been there and done that!<P>It is my firm belief that he chose to have an affair to satisfy an urge he had at the time. I seriously doubt that I could have prevented that urge-for most humans do have urges at one time or another-we just don't all act on them.<P>And I think what makes me so angry in this Ann Landers letter is that the OW here is either niave-lol-or totally blind. She will one day regret writing these things-for it will happen to her too. In fact...................in my opinion she is making it much easier for him to want to stray from her.<P>My H is my equal-my partner-my love. I am not his servant nor is he mine. I don't want a relationship where we are having to stress to keep up with each others changing "needs" or "wants".<P>I want comfort, happiness, peace, and msot of all love!<P>Now will you please take back that niave thing you called me? LOL<P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

Hi K,<P> I've read that article many times and have ALWAYS disagreed with it. I do believe that we need to try in the best way possible to meet our spouse's needs, but we are NOT mindreaders.....how can you be "proactive" if you are not given the proper information?or if you are deliberately decieved? <P>I think the Harleys are great but that's one point I don't agree with. I liken it to being blamed for a spouse's alcoholism or a child's drug abuse. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. <P>When I read Steve's article of the man being fired who was caught off guard- sometimes a person IS unfairly fired, is it their fault? Maybe they're downsizing or someone else will cost them less money ....to blame them is to rub salt in their wounds.....LU<p>[This message has been edited by Lu (edited May 18, 2001).]

K-again thanks! For some reason-I think maybe because this has been several hours of emotional up and down stuff-I am almost in tears.<P>I feel like many here are saying-no matter what is being done to you or not ebing done to and for you-you need to bust your butt working on his every want. Now,,,,,,,my H is not like that so that isn't a problem here but it seems so hypocritical.<P>I was a stepping stone for my first H-he destroyed the possibilities of me ever going too far for anyone else.<P>I will gladly meet a person half way. I will not go above and beyond to make someone else happy.<P>Mybe I am wrong here. Just I feel I get hurt pretty badly when I put in the extra effort only to be crapped on.<P>But again-thanks-you write things very wella nd I ahve had a lot to think about.<P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

Lu-<P>Now you write this and I feel just like you do. I think it is time for me to get offline here and do soemthing constructive-maybe scrub the floors? LOL-I don't do that often enough as it is!<P>I get so confused here at MB that I wonder sometimes if it is a good place for me to be.<P>My ex played head games with me like you would never believe! My own mother would say-trying to help (yeah right)-maybe you are doing something to cause him to get so angry. I almost wish I had been-then I would at least understand his anger. But to this day-and we have been divorced now for 12 1/2 years-I do NOT know what his anger was all about.<P>He got mad one day when he got home from work and I asked how his day went. He blamed me for being stuck in a job he hated. Now tell me how I could make him work anywhere! He blamed me for his drinking-I made him mad so he went and drank. I didn't do any of it! He was and is to this day a very angry person. I have never regretted ending our relationship!<P>Anyhow-I am going to log off here for the day and get something accomplished before i get the kids and we head them in to swim lessons.<P>I sure wish I knew exactly what is right and what is wrong. I used to think I did....................now I don't know. I am beginning to wonder if I am trying to fool myself.<P><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

About my letter to my wife that I posted earlier, I just wanted to say that my wife is a wonderful wife. She does everything and do a lot for me and the family as I do for her and the family. However, she neglected my need for admiration and attention. I just don't feel loved and wanted. And I am sure my wife felt the same way. Where's the quality time as best friends and lovers? Forget the husband/wife image. Focus on why two people got married in the first place.<P>What I wanted to say is that sex is emotional to men! It's not just a physical need. It's acceptance, love and reassurance. However as a man, acceptance is more ego related and feeling good physically. Reassurance is also ego related in knowing that my wife still desires me sexually. To FEEL WANTED and DESIRED. Acceptance and reassurance are good to have and nothing wrong with them. To me, its too superficial and not emotional enough. Its true a lot of men do know how to love and we men do love our wives/girlfriends. However, the only missing link most of us men don't know how to love is "emotional intimacy". (I am more emotional than my wife is).<P>Every couple should nurture one another, making each other comfortable, and have fun together. Nurturing means to feed love. To put love into action. Flirt, romance and bring emotional feelings first before sex. Try to find ways to create intimacy during lovemaking. Men are more open emotionally during sex.<BR>

Hi heartache,<P> I'm sorry you are getting confused.....I really DO think the Harley info is very good but I've always disagreed with this one point....I'm sure others disagree with ME!!!I probably have had too many years of Alanon and dealing with my brother's drug abuse.(!)I strongly feel we are all responsible for our own actions.<P>In reality I read SAA and it really helped to save my marriage .....I counseled with Steve H. during recovery and I was surprised to hear him not agree with everything that had been written in the books.....take care and take a break!!! Come back soon, though! LU

Hi Lu:<P>I know that you're a big fan of the MB stuff, so I'll give this a shot... <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I do believe that we need to try in the best way possible to meet our spouse's needs<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's the essence of it. <P>Steve isn't trying to "blame" anyone. That guy WAS unfairly fired. There ARE plenty of examples of marriages in which the spouse didn't really effectively identify their needs (including mine). It's not FAIR. And people SHOULD take responsibility for their actions.<P>But...<P>Life isn't always fair. People don't always take responsibility and do the right thing. However, if your marriage IS the MOST IMPORTANT THING to you, then you should be proactive in your attempt to make it great. Lu---I run a research group (as a hobby, MB is my profession... ). There are plenty of times where I don't get the information I need, and sometimes you get deliberate misinformation. Those are great, valid <B>excuses</B> for why something didn't get done right. But I don't get paid (and promoted) for coming up with perfectly valid reasons that I failed. I get paid for doing things right. It's great (and easy) when everyone working for you does the right thing, and gets the right info to you. But when they don't, you need to be proactive and get it for yourself.<P>And sometimes you will fail. But if you take that attitude, you'll be more successful than not. And if you do this in your marriage, your marriage will be successful.<P>Heartache:<P>You wrote:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I will gladly meet a person half way. I will not go above and beyond to make someone else happy. Mybe I am wrong here. Just I feel I get hurt pretty badly when I put in the extra effort only to be crapped on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd say that the ideal is that you will go 100% to make your spouse happy, and that they'll do the same for you. Plan A is about learning those skills to do the 100%. But if they crap on you, it does hurt---devestatingly so. When that pattern builds, a switch to Plan B is appropriate.<BR>

LOL_OK-I am leaving for awhile-I really am! But not until I write one more reply-LOL<P><BR>K-I lied! I did say I will gladly meet someone half way. That is a lie! I go above and beyond. That is why I am so sensitive. I have been burned more than time or two.<P>But I want to take back that statement if I may...................I will go 110% to amke my H as happy as he can possibly be. I love him. Why I said halfway is beyond me. My mind is swirling with all that has been said here.<P>Thanks for waking me up <P><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

Hi K ,<P> I agree with you and you're right ....Life is not fair. If I fail at my marriage while truly believing that I am doing my BEST to meet my H's needs, well,......so be it. There is only so much one can do and so much power one has over another.<P>I just think in today's society the idea that people won't cheat if they are content and having their needs met is not always true. Some people will just cheat for the thrill, or to counter depression ,or to be one of the guys etc. or for the novelty ..... <P>Being proactive is great but there is truly only so much control one has....(my opinion)..Have a good weekend! LU<P>PS...YOU run a research group? ....what a shock!....just teasing!<p>[This message has been edited by Lu (edited May 18, 2001).]

heartache, <P>i know that up and down emotional rollercoaster, the feeling like your about to cry.<P>ever notice that in nature the cure for the poison is always close? they always grow almost side by side?<P>ive come to know that when i feel the greatest pain, the most discomfort that i am close to finding the source of the pain not just the pain. <P>once you find the source you can affect a cure, but until then you just cover it with ointment or a band-aid and hide it from view.<P>dont let the feelings run you off.<P>k's point about thinking you know what they need, or having a spouse who is incapable of truthfully filling out the form, requires that you be an invesitgator to figure it out. my wife cannot put into words her needs she just cant. she wrote things that she thinks sound right, that her faith would approve of, but then actually shuns them and actively avoids them. she responds favorably to completly different things?? <P>i always use the analogy of being a anti aircraft gunner shooting into the darkness hoping that i can hit a target i cant see, and can barely hear. just know that its up to you to understand what his real needs are and that maybe you like k and i have that extra burden.<P>oh and the meet halfway thing, yea me too only i see half way as her giving 100% and me giving 100% both of us finding that blissful giver mode (still working on that ) <BR>and i am more encouraged today than i have been ever.<P>

Hey Lu,<P>I agree with you. The issue I have is with me---if I wasn't proactive and doing my best, I'd feel bad. But there are people who will cheat regardless.<P>You have a terrific weekend too. I'm gone...<P>

What bothers me about this is that it makes the assumption that ALL affairs are about unmet needs. It seems to be much more complex than that. Everybody has unmet needs at one time or another but not everyone has affairs so there is much more involved. I am thinking of Peggy Vaughan who wrote the book about her husband's many affairs. According to him she was meeting all his needs and then some yet he had numerous affairs. When asked why he said" Well, I thought I was just the luckiest guy in the world. I had this great wife who was doing all these terrific things and I had my affairs too."

pppppppppppppppppppppppssssssssssssstttttttttttttttttttttt chaz-<P>you didn't take back that word you called me-LOL<P>I said please----didn't I?<P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

<I>" Well, I thought I was just the luckiest guy in the world. I had this great wife who was doing all these terrific things and I had my affairs too." <BR></I><P>some people dont deserve the commitment of marriage either. this is where i draw my line in the sand, if deep down you really believe that your spouse is that big of a creep then why would you even consider keeping them??? there has to be that line somewhere, i get completely insane when i see posts from BS who have a long time in recovery and genuinly seem to have owned what ever part they may have played and the Jerks they are choosing to keep just continue to be the same a-holes. <P>for all of you BS's out there that genuinly believe that you are without fault, that you were the one of hundreds that really was meeting the needs of your spouse and they still just couldnt control themselves, you have my permission to quit trying now they dont deserve the chance to hurt you again. <P>I just havent met any yet i am sure they exist, i just havent met them.<P>Heartache: do you feel niave? i sure have over the last few months. <P>if it doesnt fit cast it aside, i meant you no harm by it just sharing my experiance through your predicament.<P><BR>