Chazbutler<P>So you believe that affairs are always about unmet needs? What about substance abuse, depression, personality disorders, other mental illness, mid-life crisis? And then there is the idea that men are somehow entitled to have affairs you know boys will be boys type of thinking? <P>I have read some of your posts over at EN in your situation the unmet needs fits. But it's way too simplistic to think that that all affairs are exclusively caused by unmet needs.

Kalgirl,<P>I agree, which is why I wrote the thread about "out of the blue"...<P>Scary, when you think of all the reasons... and some that you have absolutely NO control over!<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

I see why this letter makes everyone so angry. It assumes that the W is ignoring the H's ENs. I imagine it especially pushes the buttons of the W who puts her H ahead of the dishes, doesn't care about his income, and reinforces that he is desirable...and he STILL has the A.

had to open my big mouth <P>heres the deal, if your married to a real life loser, i dont get why you battle to stay. thats all, i dont think that all WS deserve the chance they get, i am not sure any of us do.<P>i am grateful for the chance i have.<P>i am also confident that its because my wife understands that there was a problem in our marriage and that had we been better as a couple, the liklyhood that i would have been suseptable to the A would have been less.<P>she gets that she has no responsibility for the choice i made, i did that all on my own, but she also knows that there really could have been a way to have avoided all of this.<P>somethings apply somethings dont if it doesnt apply to you dont try it on it will only look bad and piss you off.<BR>

Again, I must say that I agree with chazbutler.<P>I believe that some of my husband's affair<B>s</B> (please note the "s") were ego-gratifications because he has an unrealistic need for attention.<P>However, I also believe that "The Big One" (okay...the Big Two, maybe, if you include the phone sex woman...) were a direct result of him not receiving all of the love units in ye olde love bank that he needed. I'm not saying I am a bad person. I am not saying that I am a horrible failure. I am saying that if I had paid half as much attention to him (and his hobby, which is very important to him) as the PA woman he probably would have been able to avoid the affair with her... <P>As far as the phone sex woman, that's a toughie... Before we were engaged, H and I had a great sex life. Then, just about the same time the diamond ring went on the finger, it stopped and it <B>wasn't me</B>. Suddenly we were once a week...then once a month... And each time got shorter. It is as if there was a switch inside his head that said, "This one will be the mother of my children. One does not have sex with a mother." Sort of a reverse Oedipus complex, only it was WAY before we even thought of having children....(voice trails off...) ...No...you know when it started? When we had been engaged for about a month and my period was late... (pause while reflecting) Yep. That was the time. Anyway. He and phone sex woman met on line around the time we got married (he won't say before or after, so either he honestly doesn't remember or...) and continued right up until he got caught. Three and a half years of phone sex when a VERY willing wife was right there... On the one hand, I think she paid him a lot of attention...on the other hand, I think he had a problem...<P>The others (mostly internet "lovers" but at least two he met in person) were all part of an addiction that I had no control over. I do not think that any wife could have paid him enough attention or filled enough of his other emotional needs for those not to occur. <P>So, yes...there is a part of me with the "if onlys"... But I honestly believe that, even with all of his problems, the long-term physical affair could have been avoided if I had paid more attention to his emotional needs. Furthermore, I believe that the vast majority of affairs are caused by a failure to have emotional needs met.<P>But, boy, do I wish he had told me some other way...<P>I think I've put in far more than my two cents....<P>Blessings.<BR>HBC

Why do we insist on complicating things so much...<P>Ann's article was perfect food for thought! The first half of this thread most everyone missed the boat with their emotional knee jerk reactions...<P>Then we get to the meat of the Ann's point...<P>From what I see here unmet emotional needs are the cause of 90% of infidelity...<P>The Harley's hit a home run with their overly simplistic ideas on recovering a damaged relationship...<P>It is extremely disingenuous of <B>anyone</B> saying they are blameless for the demise of their marriage...I will add this caviate..sex addicts and abuse are a whole other set of issues...If you are a sex addict or being abused, is having an affair the right thing to do?? Obviously not...But those two issues aren't the topic in Ann's article... unmet EN's are...<P>So unmet needs is in fact overly simplistic <B>BUT</B> overly simplistic solutions are in my experience the best kind...<P>Bill

Hey All:<P>I'm just getting back to this topic tonight and it sure has gotten heavy. Now you all know that I am the first to sanction the need to meet ENs in the WS...but ENs are a two way street...we don't go into marriage looking to neglect our partners...it happens...life get messy and involved and complicated...and things get blown out of proportion and misinterpreted. Even Harley says you will have to wait to have your EN need tended to until after the A is over...so that indicates that there is some lacking on the part of the WH as to fulfilling ENs as well. That's basically all I was trying to say...this appeared to be a very WH/OW version of the story...which is usually the version that OW gets to hear. <P>I for one don't need anyone to tell me I failed to meet my WH's ENs...that has always been obvious...but he also failed to meet mine...and I didn't have an affair...never would have (pardon me Harley)...and to have an OW stand up and try to tell me that everything that a WH relates to her is anything but an extrapolation of his view of how he was mistreated in his marriage is ridiculous. He will tell her what she wants to hear...how wrong his wife was...what a ***** she was...how no one understands him but her. She's hardly the person I want to judge me or my marriage or give me advise about same.<P>Yes they had EN that weren't met...out of ignorance...misunderstanding...maybe even selfishness...but nothing justifies what they did...there were always other ways to work through the problems. Mistake again...yes...but a mistake that they knew was going to cause great pain if it was discovered...but they did it anyway. <P>Yes...you can live again after one...but the damage is done...and things have to be corrected on both sides to begin again...and we don't need an "in the fog" OW telling us that it's all our fault again...had enough of that from WH. I'll take what fault is mine...and work on it earnestly...but I won't except fault that is not mine to take or WH's to give...because he is not pure in this mess...he has just as many issues to resolve (probably more) then I do.<P>At least I'm working on mine...he's still lost in the fog.<P>Incidentally, I still love him as much as I did when this all began...but I just see him as a mixed up lost soul who needs to work through some issue for himself.<P>Faye <P> <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited May 19, 2001).]

It seems to me that the "insight" offered by this OW is that an affair is more fun than real life. Well, DUH!!!<P>Truth be told, there are some spouses who are going to wander regardless of how wonderful their wife or husband may be. There are people that have a character defect that prevents them from acting honorably and passing up the opportunity for instant pleasure and gratification.<P>When my hubby was entangled in an affair, he "wanted" to go with the OW to take her car through emissions. Why did he want to? Because he didn't have to!!! I can guarantee you that he would never go with me to the MVD or emissions because he wanted to just spend time with me. It was an excuse to spend time with her that I couldn't really object to without accusing him of being unfaithful. Nevermind that he had been "dating" her earlier (while we were married). I was being a bad wife for not trusting him to do things like that with her, for thinking there might be any hanky panky. I was a bad wife for checking up on him and catching him in lies. And the worst part was that I bought all of it and felt guilty!!!<P>What was the EN being met by this other woman?? The freedom to screw around without the complications of real life. Her car payments weren't his problem. He was her hero for taking her car to emissions -- at home it was part of the deal. She wasn't entitled to anything, so anything he did was a wonderful gift. I expected things from him, so doing the same things for me was a chore. I have always appreciated the things my husband does take care of and always tell him so. <P>I'm sorry, but I resent the implication by Ann Landers (and others) that if the betrayed spouse was doing their job, the wandering spouse wouldn't have wandered. <P>Ok - -off my soapbox.<P>LG

Buffy & LosingGround: Those are my thoughts exactly! It pisses me off when a OW flaunts how she stole another person's H and then tries to lecture/give advice to the betrayed!<P>As I wrote earlier, she needed to practice what she preached. If she is so knowledgeable about how to meet a spouse's emotional needs, why is it that she ended up having an affair with another's H because she met his emotional needs, rather than her H's?

You go, Survivor, et.al.!!!!! I agree!!!!! That's why this made me so mad too!<P>I agree that I had a part in making my ex-marriage an unhappy, uncomfy, unfriendly place for my ex, but HE chose his path, and I chose mine. <P>Whoever HAS the affair is 100% RESPONSIBLE for that choice!!

Noone ever said they WS didn't have 100% in their choice...According to what I have learned it is the BS that has to learn what the did to create an atmosphere where an affair was possible...<P>Bill

WilliamJ-<P>I did not mean for this thread to get so long-or over analyzed.<P>However............................................<BR>I want to clarify a thing or two. I wonder if I will ever get my point across to everyone-myself included.<P>WHEN MY H WAS WITH THE OW I WAS AT HOME OR AT WORK!<P>I always came straight home from anywhere and everywhere-other than getting gas or groceries. <P>It is like Losing Ground says------The EN being met were the freedom to screw around.<P>I may be off my rocker but I think this-above most everything else-is the eason people have affairs. Sure it has to do with needs but many of the needs are out of line. REAL LIFE bogs most people down. There are bills in real life, there are kids in real life, there is work in real life. REAL LIFE IS CHAOS! <P>Many people look at the Jones and think "They ahev a boat and a car and a truck and a big gorgeous house and well behaved kids and so on". All I have are bills for the house and bills for the truck and car and my kids are always whining.<P>So they cop out-and look for happiness in the arms of another person.<P>While I believe in the Harleys and all I do think that there is much much more to making a marriage work than one half of the couple busting their [censored] to do everything their spouse desires while that spouse is only giving a half hearted effort.<P>Life is plain and simply a hard row to hoe. We ALL have to work at it-all of life-to make it what we want it to be!<P>But when the OW gets on Ann Landers and tells us how we screw up and she "wins" our guys over because she does it all right it will make me mad as a hornet every time! She is so far off base-and how I wish I could sit and watch this gal go through life-it is going to be FUNNY when he pulls the plug on her!!<P>Anyhow-I waasn't trying to pick anything apart here-I was venting-one of my EN-LOL<P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

Ok, I'm going to ask a simple question. Hope nobody gets offended, I'm just wondering about something.<P>Why does a woman who wrote to Ann Landers upset everyone so much? There are OW here at MB and instead of being angry at them, we all, myself included, have asked them for advice so that we could learn.<P>I'm not sure that the woman was trying to gloat. Maybe she was feeling guilt and was perhaps trying to give advice to help someone keep their marriage intact.<P>Just a thought.....<P>Mitzi

Hi there,<P> I responded on the recovery thread about personality types and got to thinking about this thread.<P>The Ann Landers thread has provoked two different reactions......<P>1) An analytical reaction with the poster being puzzled about the other's more emotional reactions<P>2) The hurt, emotional and angry response with the poster taking this letter as an personal affront (I'm in this group..)<P>It seems that most of the analyzers are men(K, William J, Chaz) who tend to be more thinking, analytical types (I know there are also some women in this group.... but maybe like Mitzi they are more removed from the situation or just able to analyze more objectively?<P>Most of the others who are angry (myself included) are probably feeling types , sensitive and hate criticism.It rubs salt in my wounds to hear these things.<P>I'm not sure where I'm going with this but what do you think? It just struck me that the opinions were so polarized.......LU<BR>

LU,<P>You make an excellent point and agree about your generalization...One thing this thread has done is gotten us thinking...Even if it is emetional or analytical...We are still thinking...<P>Now not to discredit the emotional reactions...Be cause your feelings are just that, your feelings...But in order to get some semblance of sanity back in our lives and get to recovering from this emotional trauma, one must get to analyzing the core issues...because I know feelings ain't facts....And I have my feelings hurt everyday, I'm very sensitive to things that are said and done to me...But once my knee-jerk reaction is gone I have to really look at what was said or else I'll continue to walk through life wearing blinders and rose colored glasses....<P>Bill

This will be my last post on this thread as I feel we are beginning to go in circles-and I am feeling frustrated by those circles going through my mind.<P>Mitzi-the reason it angers me is this:<P>I didn't read it as she was really trying to help. Simply my perception. I took it as if she were talking directly to me-in my face-telling me why my H had an A. And it really pissed me off!<P>I feel like I am a very rational and honest person. On the other hand I am also very sensitive and impulsive with my moods.<P>I just can't-and here it is 2 years almost-take any blame for my H having an A.<P>Maybe I don't belong at MB.<P>This subject has been beaten to death so many times-course that is the whole reason we are all here-to understand, get help, hash and re-hash affairs.<P>But my trouble is that for 2 years I have been beating myself up trying to figure out why 2 married people that meant the world to me chose to cheat, lie, screw up so many lives for their simple gratifacation. <P>And now they hate each other-because they know what they did was so wrong.<P>As I have said time and again-I loved and still love my H every day. I show it every day. I live it every day.<P>Just because he wanted something and it wasn't available doesn't make me responsible. And I guess I am tired of trying to find the blame in me.<P>I am NOT saying that I am so wonderful-I am just saying i am tired......................tired of having to think of how I must walk on eggshells to make sure I am never betrayed again.<P>Thanks to all who replied to this thread-never did I think it would grow into this.<BR><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

Heartache,<P>No, you're not to blame for your H's affair. No BS is. It just seems that in most cases, something was wrong somewhere in the marriage to make the spouse cheat. His actions are just that, HIS actions. But in order to completely heal and recover, we need to take a long look at what state our marriages were in and correct anything that was wrong. It could be something trivial or something major. <P>Lu,<P>I agree about the 2 different types. Although, I'm usually not too analytical and more emotional. I'm not trying to recover my marriage so I can be outside and see things from a different point of view. If I was still trying to recover, I would probably feel differently. Sometimes it just takes someone who isn't involved so emotionally to see things in a different way and bring it to our attention. Ya know, that little lightbulb! <BR>Mitzi

Hi Heartache,<P> I know that was your last post but please stay at MB ....there are alot of people who feel as you do (I'm one!) ......<P> I don't think this forum was set up so that everyone would completely agree with the Harley's (!)....take care, come back soon.....LU

heartache,<P>dont be running of girl!!<P>heres one from the therapy group "Stay in the pain!" its where the healing happens.<P><B>that is the whole reason we are all here-to understand, get help, hash and re-hash affairs.<BR></B><P>that not why i am here, i am here to build my marriage. hashing and rehashing the affair is what i see as counter productive. hash and rehash the marriage what it is what it was. learn and grow find how to make the marriage you have joyful and you will have joy.<BR>

Hi-I wasn't running off so to speak.<P>I am beaten.<P>I will never understand and sadly never forget what my H did to me.<P>That in itself does not make me a very good person.<P>It isn't that I want to remember-it is just me. I guess I am in to self torture.<P>I choose to live in this crap every day. I am tired of crying, tired of being moody, tired of knowing it happened. Tired of anticipating seeing the OW or her H on the road.<P>Tired-I am so tired I can't begin to say how tired I am.<P>I really wanted to understand this-and while I don't really ever expect my H to have another A-I must say I never expected the one he did have so...................<P>I can't win-it happened and it is too late.<P>I think I need a vacation-or a few strong drinks.<P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."