Hello All,<P>In 2+ years of semi-successful recovery from (recovering alcoholic) H's 7-week PA w/a Bar-Fly.<P>Recovery has been semi-successful. I say semi, because I am still partially resentful, harbor ill-feelings & have unanswered questions as to why my H did this to us. Another problem is that every 9 months to a year, Ms.Bar-Fly initiates e-mail contact with my H to coerce him into resuming their A. He has sent her (2) "No Contact" letters and I sit here, hoping that she finally gets the message.<P>Okay...so that's brief background history.<P>Here's my dillema:<P>My H has been invited to a barbecue tomorrow, where only his co-workers are welcome. Most of these people consist of "single" alcoholic men...whom he used to hang around with, partially causing the demise of our marriage. He thinks that these people are his friends, and they are not. They only call him to "party" with them. Other than that, we never hear from them. Spouses aren't even invited/welcome to this gathering which really pisses me off.<P>While we were in therapy, our counselor even said that my H needs to detach from these friends...since my H is trying to stay away from alcohol and all these so-called friends do is drink drink drink! In addition, I feel that my H should be hanging around with folks who are married & have families...where all of us can attend an event together, as a couple.<P>Right now, it sounds like he will attend his event, whether I like it or not. This is a tremendous LOVEBUST for me and I feel that he is choosing his friends over this family. I told him that if we weren't invited, then he shouldn't be attending alone.<P>He said to trust him. Now everyone who remembers me from the past, knows that I have a difficult time with trust. My trust in him as been broken many times and I feel that his decision to attend this function is risky and unecessary. It can possibly hurt our recovery & is a trigger. We have worked hard to regain what we lost...but I feel that if he makes the decision to attend this...then we are regressing.<P>Any opinions would be appreciated.<P>

I'm just in discovery but have,years ago,quit drugs.He should stay home with you and show you how much he realy cares.The only way I got away from the drugs is by getting away from all the drug userers!DUH!Tell him to stick with the program . GOOD LUCK! NTK

Survivor:<P>Do you have a copy of Give and Take? This is a clear POJA issue, and he shouldn't be going if you haven't come up with a mutually agreeable plan. I'd suggest that you let him know in no uncertain terms that this is a huge deal for you (and it's not solely about trust).<P>Brainstorm. I suggest that you do something together that you'll both have a riot with. A trip to Haiwaii sounds really nice.

Your H definitely needs to stay away from these people as well as they'll only drag him down. Same goes for OW. Both of these things are addictions and need to be avoided at all costs. He also needs to consider your feelings.<P>This is a definite POJA issue. Any chance of discussing with him?<P>

<B>K</B>,<P>Here's my problem with answers like yours:<P>What if the spouse doesn't want/doesn't believe in the POJA?<P><B>Survivor</B>,<P>It's me, Sheryl, aka "new_beginning"... this is my cool new name.<P>You are so smart, and you know the score. If he goes, it will be a huge LB for you, and possibly dangerous for him. You do need to let him know you are WORRIED from the aspect of his recovery process - not the affair thingy.<P>I'd come at it directly from a **I'm worried about how difficult this will be for your recovery** place.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Survivor - your thought process is entirely reasonable to me. Your analysis is correct from your description. Just wanted to validate you on that. But I don't have a solution. Are we supposed to be perfect during recovery? I'm not there yet, but it seems that that's a tall order, other than perfectly being honest and staying away from the OP.<P>I suggest you post this on the Recovery board.<P>Good luck,<BR>WAT

Survivor,<P>Just some thoughts for what they are worth. I'm a recovering alcoholic myself. Have you talked to your husband about why it is important for him to go to this function? I don't know your whole situation, but it does sound to me that he has been doing pretty good lately as far as not contacting other woman or drinking. I know for me, I have attended some work only functions where drinking was part of what was going on. What I found out is that since I have been sober, I have found these events and the people drinking there, to not be very interesting anymore and it has helped me to realize that I don't want to be a part of them anymore. For me, part of recovery is to be able to go into situations where alchol is present and be able to avoid drinking again. It may be that your husband needs to experience this for himself, assuming his sobriety has been good. Does he go to AA meetings, have a sponsor, etc. You can't force your husband not to go and maybe you do need to trust him on this. Definately talk to him about it, share your concerns, but also really try to understand why he wants to go. Remember that ultimately it is up to him what he decides to do. Try not to make his decision to go or not go something that will determine the future of your marriage. If everything else has been good, there's nothing to say his going means he is throwing that all away. I do understand your concerns here and understand the fears you have. Anyway hang in there, things will work out for you.<P><BR>God's strength and much patience to you.<P>Tim

Let him know (without LBing) that this would set you back in recovery too. If he had a very diffuclt time with your feelings, maybe he would take that into consideration.

Hey Survivor,<P><BR>Long time. If it was me I might not even talk about the trust issue at this time. He is an alcholic he has no business with a group of alcholics. He will be tempted to drink. This alone should be the reason he does not go. <P>I would discuss it in this frame of mind. Putting down his friends is not going to help you it will only make him want to go more.<P>As an example. Tony was friends with this one guy who was nothing but bad news. Tony loved to snowmobile with this person. This person has zero brain cells to function from. I almost died because he has no brian. I refused to snowmobile with this group of friends when I got hypothermia from this guys really bad decisions. I did not tell Tony he could not go but I just pointed out that I did not think it was a good idea. Tony went with him several times this season and saw for himself that this guy is not worth the time.<P>Now in your situation I do not think you are afforded the option of letting your H find this out on his own. There is a strong chance that he could start drinking again. Try to explain this to your H and maybe think of some fun options other than the party. Also ask your H if he really thinks being tempted like this is really worth the damage it could cause. <P><BR>But really try not to LB all over the place and make it seem like he has to choose you over his friends. He probably will resent it. Hang in there....sorry you have to worry about this.

I agree with K and Susie, <B>if</B> he is committed to POJA. Even if not, maybe you can POJA anyway.<P>Is there something he's been wanting you to do that you aren't, or something he'd like you not to do that you are doing? Maybe you can negotiate something. Maybe you can throw your own party, with couples only invited.<P>If he's at all open to compromise and hearing your concerns, I'd suggest trying to find something you can both be enthusiastic about in place of this barbeque. You may have to approach it very carefully if he has issues of guilt and feeling controlled.<P>All of this really just restates what K and Susie said with more words , but my point is that even if he has not formally committed to POJA you may be able to still use the process.<P>Steve

Other people have addressed the immediate issue. As far as the xOW, I would suggest a restraining order. Then legal action if contact reoccures. Then moving if it reoccurs again. Have you changed all phone numbers (mobile and home) and made your info unlisted, all e-mail addys (and closed the old accts)?

Sheryl:<P>The deal with the POJA is that this issue is discussed---and that can happen even if the other spouse doesn't "believe" in it. The issues are clearly and respectfully laid out on the table. And if spouse decides to go ahead with the plans, the issue shifts from them doing a "thoughtless" hurtful behavior to an "intentionally" hurtful behavior.<P>That will be all clear before the party. And Survivor can establish boundaries at this point that could range from "I'm really scared and I'll be down no matter what happens" to "your bags will be sitting out in the driveway and my lawyer will contact you on Monday".<P>It's really not much different than the process you laid out---it's just using the MB formalisms.

Thanks K, I really never "got" it before.<P>Clearly, huh?

First of all, thank you thank you for replying and offering your advice/opinions!<P>NTK: My H feels that he has the willpower to abstain from alcohol. I sense that his willpower isn't great enough. He seems to be one that succumbs to "peer pressure." I wish that he would stick with the program.<P>K: I do appreciate that you read my post. I agree that this is a POJA issue, but my H seems determined to go, whether I like it or not. It appears that my feelings in this matter will be disregarded. By the way...we are possibly going away Memorial weekend (as a family)...not as glamarous as Hawaii...but still should be fun anyway!<P>Susie: I've discussed this with him twice. He still gives me the same response, "Trust me. I'll only stay a few hours...play volleyball, horseshoes...drink soda...and I'll come home early." When he tells me this, a little voice in my head says, "Where have I heard this before??"<P>Nyneve/Sheryl: Cool name. By the way, how did you move to "member status" so quickly with a new name? When I changed my name, it seemed to take awhile before I moved back to "member status." I appreciate your input. I don't understand why my H sees these people as his friends. They are never around. They usually call him when there is some kind of gathering...or if he goes to them. They never call otherwise. They are "party" friends whom he used to drink with or hang out at the bar with, after work. When will my H see that? He keeps asking me to trust him. Ughhh...<P>Worthatry: It sure is hard to keep Plan A'ing when a huge Lovebust is about ready to erupt. As the day for this party is soon arriving, I find myself growing angrier. I definitely am withdrawing. I don't even want to Plan A anymore. I'm just so upset. Recovery, along with its ups & downs is so hard!<P>Tim: I appreciate your input...especially since you have been where my H is (re: alcohol). I wonder if my H is indeed testing himself...to see if he is strong enough to abstain or not?? I really don't understand why this is so important for him to attend this. I realize that I can't force him, one way or another. I just have to hope that he chooses not to go...and if he does attend...then he will observe what is going around him and come to the conclusion that the life-style that his friends have, isn't so appealing to him anymore. That was one of the problems in the past. He wanted to be free...escape responsibilities...be & act just like his single buddies were doing. Shall we say early mid-life crisis here?<P>veryhurt: This will definitely set back recovery. I can already sense it. I find myself withdrawing from him and that isn't good.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Survivor [aka_NoTrust]:<BR><B><BR>Nyneve/Sheryl: Cool name. By the way, how did you move to "member status" so quickly with a new name? When I changed my name, it seemed to take awhile before I moved back to "member status." I appreciate your input. I don't understand why my H sees these people as his friends. They are never around. They usually call him when there is some kind of gathering...or if he goes to them. They never call otherwise. They are "party" friends whom he used to drink with or hang out at the bar with, after work. When will my H see that? He keeps asking me to trust him. Ughhh...<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>About member status: Um, I have no life? Could that be it? I have been going around giving welcome messages - I have a template and everything!! <P>I am sorry you're having to deal with this at all... it's that little problem about not being able to change THEM that's so infuriating!! Why, oh why, can't they see the HARM their choices will cause? I don't know!!<P>I guess what K says is true... you be honest, try to POJA, and then you have to decide what, if anything, you will do if he chooses to go.<P>Ick. Tough call. <P>

POJA is the MB technique for "eliminating selfishness"...<BR>...and tool to gradually move the marriage to "complete self-giving"... to make Plan A the best it can be.<P>If your H is fighting you on this...<BR>...he'll fight his efforts toward Plan A in the future...<BR>...and disregard your Plan A...<P>I go for the "your bags will be sitting out in the driveway and..."...<BR>...maybe some other plan for Memorial Day weekend seems to be in order.<P>You have my prayers.<P> <P>Jim

Pahakissa: Hi! How are you doing lately? Thanks for your example. Sorry that you had to experience that. I wonder if my H will attend this and need to see for himself that these so-called friends of his only care about one thing...and one thing only...themselves & partying! I totally agree with you. My H is an alcoholic and doesn't need to be placing himself in a situation where other alcoholics will be.<P>Stillhers: I told my H that I would like us to go out as a family during the same day that the barbecue is on. His response...well, we can do that on Sunday....or, why do we have to go to that festival on Saturday? I'm so annoyed!<P>Openheart: I'm so tired of this former OW popping up every 9 months or so. How can a restraining order be filed if we don't hear from her for months at a time....and then, she makes contact again at the 9 month/1 year mark? We never know when or if she will try. That's the hard part. We just sit here, hoping that she won't try.<P>Jim: How are you lately? Thanks for reading my post. I'm so tempted to tell him that his bags will be out the door. That is a bit extreme, though...don't you think? Especially if recovery has been okay? You did have a point though....I wonder how many times, in the future, will my H step all over me...just to fill his self-serving needs! Or, do you think that this is selfish of me to not want him to go?? I hate to make demands. It seems that the person will do the opposite, when you demand something from them. Ughhh!

Survivor:<P>I agree that the "bags packed" is a bit extreme too (I was only using it to be colorful...). However<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I hate to make demands.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's against MB policy to make demands. But a demand is "you cannot go to this party". If you clearly state a boundary with results if he is to violate it---that's not a demand. It's a consequence. But it can't be an empty one---you should give clear thought to how badly this will hurt you. That's why I suggest a POJA conversation before coming back with "consequences"---so you can try to figure out where he stands.

Hi K: Thanks for following my post. I spoke to my H a few minutes ago. I asked him why it was so important for him to go to this event, knowing that it would hurt me & our recovery. His answer was, "It isn't. I don't want to talk about it."<P>I told him, "Well, we do need to talk about it."<P>Then, he said, "I haven't made a decision to go yet."<P>So...that's all I got out of him. I don't know what the consequences are if he goes, or I would bring that up. But is telling him that there will be consequences demanding...like a punishment?<P>I have a feeling that I will end up waiting until tomorrow to see what he ends up doing.<P>Thanks for your continued input.

It's me popping my nose in again. I agree with TimJ on this one. Maybe this is a test for your H, that is why he is so adament about going. Just like spouses being in the FOG with OW, they can get that way with their FRIENDS ALSO, so it doesn't really matter how awful you tell him his friends are, he will just not see it until something happens for him to see it on his own. For now, he will keep his friends on a pedestal and think you are just jealous of them. If you have already spoken to him about your concerns about him backsliding with the alcohol then you have done all that you can do. It is now up to him to decide which path to take when he is at the barbeque. While he is gone, go out for the day and do something for youself, go shopping, go see a movie, anything where you are not at home waiting anxiously and scared. I'm sure that H would like to see some support from his wife that YES, HE CAN DO THIS, but if you keep on him he will feel that you have no faith in him and all that he has become lately. And that could really send him backwards. When he leaves, tell him to "Enjoy yourself, but not too much" with a coy wink/laugh and then say "Who knows, maybe i will make us a special desert tonight to enjoy when u get home". It could be choc. covered strawberries or somthing fun like that!