I absolutely and totally had no clue whatsoever! 1998 was a fabulous year for us, I turned 40 - hubby threw me the most thoughtful surprize party ever. We sold our acreage (we both hated it) and moved into an apartment while waiting for spring to buy our bungalow in town. Our daugher graduated and moved out. I took hubby on a surprize trip to Vancouver where we stayed in a hotel and had sex for three days.<P>Hubby got promoted at work to the Manager of the computer department ( a goal he had worked long and hard at).<P>Money was coming around - we had savings, GIC and little expenses. <P>Then SHE started at his office in Sept 98 by Oct 98 they were renting weekly hotel rooms together - I really had no clue. I have looked back and double checked and rechecked and there was not one sign ever. <P>He never mentioned her at home, no hang up phone calls (she was also married), no working late (met over lunch hours) no missing money (they shared expenses and hid a little envelope at work where they put small amounts of money until they had enough for a hotel room) - when he told me she had been caught by her husband (they always communicated by voice mail) and was kicked out so he had to leave to be with her - I thought he was lying (I wish he was now).<P>I remember believing that we were hibernating and waiting to emerge in the spring into a new beginning and bang the rug was sucked out

We were very happy. Time as a couple was at premium due to the fact that I had just had two babies 14 months apart and was working full time. Looking back I think he felt left out as I had very little time for him as he wasn't a real hands on Dad. He even asked me at one point if I still loved him. I assured him that I did but that he would need to understand that I was just too exhausted to be really enthusiastic at the end of the day.<P>He got a job that took him overseas and 3 days before they finished that job and were to come home he met OW at a night club. They began a relationship over the phone. That was the beginning of the end. When I discovered the A he broke all contact and stayed with us and now 4.5 years later he is back in contact with her after having at least 4 EA's that he denies (they were just friends that he enjoyed being around) I did not know of these friends until recently. And he quit calling one of his friends that he called daily after he reinitiated contact with OW#1. Just friends, then why stop calling her all of the sudden? He recently told me that he thinks that it was love at first site with OW#1.<P>Maybe the question about my being in love with him was my heads up but I certainly missed it and I think it was pretty subtle. <P>

22 years married. Good yes, perfect, no, nothing is. Out of the blue. YOU BET. No reason at all. A year and a half before maybe, we were fighting a lot. At the time of his A NO WAY we were doing more etc. etc. than ever. A shock? That's not the word. Still trying to work it out, but God there are times I hate.

!Reflective Moment Alert! <P>Let me tell you why I asked this question today...<P>I have been here at Marriage Builders for nearly two years. Last week, I decided to change my "handle" (which was new_beginning) because I realized that I had indeed gotten my "new beginning" --just not with the husband I had been married to for 20 years. <P>So, in my search to find the *perfect* name, I did some research, read through a few old journals, read through old posts here, and had some general reflection about where I'd been, and where I am going. My new name describes my journey to a "t".<P>As I sit here today, new name chosen and new life begun, I am engaged to be married. Yes, it happened quickly, and I have wrestled with this decision (both quietly, and here, on the forum). I am deeply in love with my fiance, as he is with me. But is that enough? Well, we who have travelled this road know the truth, don't we? It isn't. <P>I remember days with my ex, talking about having "nothing" and "everything"... the love would get us through. But it didn't. <P>I was as surprised as any one of you the first time he cheated. I had three very young children, was working a job all day beginning at 6 am, came home, picked up the kids from daycare, and he was already at work until 11 each night. I thought we were **working together** to provide for our babies. I was wrong. <P>When it happened again, I was livid, but I did as many do - I blamed myself. I was fat, tired all the time, and b!tchy.<P>The third time, I just wanted to kill him. I did take a gift he brought home from her and cut it into tiny pieces and threw it to the wind. <P>The fourth and the fifth happened while I was posting here, and the details are all over this site - along with my 3000+ other postings.<P>So, I decided to begin again. And I kind of "began again" on MB when I chose my new name.<P>...and then today... this funny kind of fear (?) crept over me... what if knowing all I know about MB and applying it isn't enough? My fiance knows all this too - we both do - and we use it and apply it DAILY. Are we immuned to infidelity now? <P>So, I began this thread - and now I am wondering if it was wise or not. Because, do you see, there are so many who DIDN'T SEE IT COMING AT ALL!!<P>I never, ever, ever, ever want to bring that kind of pain into my marriage EVER. I know I'd turn bitter if it happened to me again (Not to mention suicidal and murderous). I just wish I had some kind of guarantee, you know? <P>Boy, infidelity jades us... makes us question even the most beautiful of relationships. <P>Sometimes I hate being a grown up!<P>...and yet... there is hope here...<P>~~~~~~~~~> Okay, reflective moment over... please continue posting... <P><p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited May 18, 2001).]

My Dear Nyneve,<P>Reflection can be a very useful tool, as long as you remember that what you are seeing is not a true image. (And no, I did NOT read that in a fortune cookie!)<P>I am not trying to minimize your concern for your future marriage when I say the following things to you. BUT....... At least you are starting with someone who has been faithful to you. You are starting with someone who KNOWS how horrible it feels to be betrayed, and the two of you know and use MB principles in your relationship already. You two have a chance to start fresh without the shadow of an OP looming on the edge of the relationship you share. AND YOU ARE IN LOVE.<P>Yes, there is a chance infidelity MIGHT touch your life again. The only way to avoid that chance is to deny yourself the opportunity to have an intimate relationship ever again. Do you honestly see spending the rest of your life alone as a viable option? I think not!!<P>You, lovely lady, are a woman of emotion and passion. What more could a creature such as you hope to aspire to attain than a loving passionate relationship full of honest and open emotions? You have a chance for the ULTIMATE happiness a marriage can offer! Are you going to give up that chance out of fear that it might slip away?<P>Go into it with the full knowledge that infidelity MIGHT happen, but that even if it does, YOU CAN SURVIVE IT! YOU ALREADY HAVE!<P>Listen girl, I wake up EVERY morning with the man that broke my heart TWICE, look at him and realize how very much I love him and how thankful I am that we are making it through this. If I can do THAT, you can do THIS!<P>Hey, we're all allowed a little doubt and self-pity once in a while. But then you have to shake it off, determine to take a chance and go on with life, and keep reaching for that brass ring. SO SHAKE IT OFF!<P>Start right now by thinking of all the reasons you want to marry this man and share his life. Doesn't the fear of possible heartache just pale in comparison to that list of good stuff? Aren't you glad you have me to talk some sense into you?<P>Love you, you know!<P>Peppermint

My god Peppermint, am I EVER glad I have someone like you to talk some sense into me!!!<P>I could leap right through this screen and kiss you!!!<P>Love you too, my sweet, sweet Peppermint! <P>...and by the way, I love this man sooooooo much... and I will make him a fantastic wife, as he will make a fantastic husband... I truly have no doubt about that!

My story is sadly typical from what I've read -- the H and W's best friend (or vice versa)... my good buddy was _______ (fill in the blank) my H while for years being my "good friend". Whenever I had my suspicions (beginning while I was pregnant), I was told individually by both that I was a tad delusional and they each expressed hurt that I would "ever, ever, ever" think such a thing. It is the bold-faced, eye-to-eye, intentional lies that still to this day haunt me... how she/he had the gall to accept my heart-felt apologies while at the same time screwing each other on the sly and knowing I wanted to crawl into a hole because I had my doubts ... what a bunch of L-O-S-E-R-S!!! .... oh yeah, it totally sucked finding out 9 mos. ago, but for the grace of God, I had enough inner strength and support to handle leaving that toxic scene.

Hey Nyneve,<P>Does that mean my work here is done? <P>Peppermint

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peppermint:<BR><B>Hey Nyneve,<P>Does that mean my work here is done? <P>Peppermint</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>With me, yes... but you have so much more to give... <P>...and even with me... you can drop by any time and give me some hugs, okay?<P>(((((Peppermint)))))<P>

You have an incredible chance to start over with the right tools. I would love a chance like this, but then again, knowing then what I know now, I really don't think I would have married, I would have stayed single forever.<P>BYW, yes it took me completely by surprize, I even made a comment to extended family that I'm glad I've found the perfect man--just days after the A started.<P>You have the right tools now, use them wisely and you will have a great marriage.

Thank you veryhurt <P>I'm sorry... I guess I took my "Poll" over with my personal stuffies... I hope that others will continue to post and include their thoughts... boy, we're learning all sorts of stuff, and I am grateful to all who take the time to share!!

Nyneve ... fab name, btw.<P>Nope. Neither time was out of the blue. Yeah, I was shocked the first time and the second time. But, both times he had withdrawn from me and was hanging out with a friend that I didn't like and didn't approve of (different friend each time, btw). And both times, I had withdrawn from him. The first time he told me "I thought you didn't love me anymore." I was horrified. How could I have let him feel that way? But I had. I fell into the trap again, too, allowing my marriage to become less important than life's trivialities. It happens. It shouldn't - but it does.<P>No, I am not saying he was justified in having an affair, or that I caused it. But I am saying that I screwed up big time and didn't learn from the first time - and did it again.<P>Slug would do anything for him, of course. She knows that she will never have a chance to get a man that good again. And if they stay together, he will cheat on her, too. He has already done so in so many ways by spending the time he did with me and keeping it from her.<P>So - no, for me, it really wasn't out of the blue, it just seemed that way when it hit me.<P>For slug, when it happens to her, it will be out of the blue. Poor slug. Please pass the beer and the salt...<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Anyone else?

Mornin Sheryl-<P>I have already said that for me it was out of the blue.<P>I read what you wrote about your reflective moment. It saddens me to know what you are feeling when you go through that. <P>We are never going to be immune from INFIDELITY are we? No matter what-since we can't control everything another person does.<P>IT SCARES ME TOO-WHEN i EVEN GET CLOSE TO THINKING WHAT IF...........................................<P><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<P>"Life's A Dance<BR>You Learn As You Go.<BR>Sometimes You Lead<BR>Sometimes You Follow!<BR>Don't worry 'Bout What You Don't Know<BR>LIfe's A Dance <BR>You Learn As You Go."

Out of the blue here, bigtime! We NEVER fought, always got along great. Then I went away for afew days, came back and everything was totally different. He was suddenly sullen and mean to me. Like he had been kidnapped by aliens and replaced with a stranger. The A started while I was away. It turns out later that for the previous 2 months (since I suffered a miscarraige) he had been concealing symptoms of depression. By the time he decided to mention it he was already convinced that he wasn't depressed and the marriage was the problem. Of course he had a little bee buzzing in his ear giving him helpful hints about how he'd be happier if he left me. But it was a shock, to me and everyone else. My BIL had spent time with him 3 months before on a fishing trip and he told me "Fairydust, I have no clue who this new person is, but he is NOT the person I went fishing with. The guy I was with was telling me how excited he was about having a baby and being a family and how great his life was." My how quickly things change.

HI all, not exactly out of the blue, H had flirtations in the past, but this was the first one that was 'secret' from me. <BR>This was an EA (please don't think that it doesn't hurt as much as PA, the idea that he preferred to spend time with her, talk to her, be there for her when she needed him, hurts very much) <BR>This EA at mid life for him, also with tremendous job stress (which she understood perfectly, and he didn't think I would care to hear the problems).<BR>We had grown distant since H went to this job, he was the type that came home late, ate, read the paper and watched TV and went to sleep in his chair. If he wanted sex after evenings like that, yes, I'm afraid I was not going to be willing. <BR>One year into his EA, I had a couple of surgeries and a diagnosis of Breast Cancer. One year of surgery, chemo and radiation followed. We had not intimacy during this time and for 6 months following the end of treatments. I cared for my father during that year and he died last fall.<BR>Yes, I did ask what was happening, was there someone else (he had some business trips with OW by that time) He always said nothing was wrong. I asked him if we were going to live emotionally separate from then on, he had no response. <P>I had to discover them out to lunch to bring this all to the open. I still haven't all the facts, and we are almost to the 1yr DD. <BR>So in a nut shell, there were some previous incidences, but no secrecy until this time and of course that made the length of the EA much longer. H was uncomfortable and felt guilty, but OW said he was rediculous to feel that was, it was business. (monkey business) L

Hi Nyneve,<P> Great name!....btw, I've meant to ask you before, are you a writer by trade? You should be!<P>Anyway, YES it was out of the blue since the symptoms he had, moodiness, negativity , unhappiness and critictism of me have come and gone in the marriage for 20 some years.<P> He claimed (when I would ask) that he was stressed at work(oh yeah, that was a good one, OW was at work), unhappy at his job ,not feeling right health -wise. I , at one point, begged for him to go to counseling with me maybe just to see if there was a problem and he responded with roses, I love you, you're wonderful etc, etc......(all during the affair)so , YES, I felt this was out of the blue or maybe that's not the right term maybe.... "shock of my life".<P>Now, when he gets moody , unhappy ,withdrawn,or critical he cannot understand my fears and says I'm overreacting......LU

It was very much out of the blue to me too. I knew there were problems, but I always associated them with everything else that was going on in our lives, not the marriage. We were grieving the loss of our almost 4yr old son, I was pregnant with twins, we had just moved, xmas had just passed, and most importantly, we had vowed to each other to stay together no matter what! Humph! I guess I was the only one who meant it.<P>In hindsight, of course I can now see how all of those things were signs, but I trusted my H too much, obviously.<P>Karen<BR>

I haven't had chance to read much, I have been printing. My personal scenario was being seperated from my H. We were still spending time together but I do believe some of his EN weren't being met. His A happened after we had been apart a year. So my EN were also being neglected, but I did not choose sex with someone else as a solution. He was still taking our baby, giving me breaks, giving me things, saying he loved me, being sexual with me. We were talking and I thought our friendship was great. But I could just feel something inside my spirit that wasn't right. I cannot explain it any other way.

Thank you for the wonderful, wonderful replies - and LU, no I am not a writer, but what a LOVELY COMPLIMENT!!!<P>Keep 'em coming, PLEASE!!!<P>(((((Everyone)))))