I knew that there were problems, but thought most of it was job related, didn't know that he blamed me for everything.<P>However I was blow away when he 1st told me he wanted to leave, then when I knew there was an OW, I wouldn't believe it was a PA till I read in black & white.<P>He was my knight in shinning armor, I thought he was the most honest man, I knew, that his personal integrity was way too high for this kind of deceit.<P><BR>

Hi Sheryl,<P>With 20-20 hindsight I know see problems that were there. X had no confidence in me for what ever reason, so whenever I had a problem at work, she always acted like I was losing my job, so I quit talking about my job. She also worked nights to be home for the kids during the day and I would be there for them at night so we started drifing apart.<P>I formed a friendship with a guy who I was able to share with, I didn't have to feel macho around him like I do with most guys. X became jealous of this. About 2 yrs before her affair she told me some guy at work had been hitting and had asked her out for a drink.<P>She said she was very flattered but knew it wasn't right and said no. She said she was upset because I shared things with my friend but not her. So I ended my friendship. Unfortunetly I didn't do enough work on my marriage.<P>Sex started to dwindle. It had never been that great for me anyhow and a lot of times she made me feel like I was just a tool for her. We only had been having sex about 2/mo. It was now down to 1/6 weeks. We weren't fighting but I knew she wasn't happy, but didn't know why. I keep hoping that she would "get over" what ever was bothering her.<P>I noticed she started pulling away from the kids. She quit helping out at school and somehow always ended up working when they had sports.<P>She took me out to an expsnsive weekend get away when I got promoted. We had an okay weekend, but nothing spectacular.<P>2 months later she had the affair(PA, I suspect the EA had been going on a few moonths prior to that. I think the weekend away was the straw that broke the camels back in her eyes). It was all downhill from there.

Hi Bob, and thanks for the reply --- so wonderful to see you!! <P>One more time up for replies... this has been absolutely wonderful!!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Yes, it was completely out of the blue. We had suffered business setbacks about which my H was kicking himself, our eldest was going off to college, and then a relative was tragically murdered. My H suffered signs of depression - by his own admission he had lost interest in everything he had been interested in. <P>My H was always reliable about letting me know if he was going to be late. Then one day, he suddenly didn't come home until about 1 am, several hours after he was expected home, and was inexplicably furious that I had gone out to look for his car. I knew then that something terrible had happened.<P>Many years ago while we were dating my H told me how much he appreciated the fact that I, unlike his first wife, didn't run off if we argued, but stayed to work it out. She left him after a marriage of only two months. It's kind of ironic that he ran off without even telling me anything was wrong....<P>There is no way to predict whether your spouse will almost overnight turn into someone completely different. As I have said before, you can't trust anyone, even if you have known them for a quarter of a century. <P>

Yes, out of the blue for me! 2000 was a busy year for me. I organized a family reunion in July and then my daughter's wedding in Sept.Our 2 sons moved far away soon after.Our 25th wedding anniversary was in Oct. H was becoming more distant and angrier with me by the end of the year. I thought it was the stress of his business in the slow months. In Jan. he started "ice fishing" every weekend with his "old friend". He always liked to fish so I didn't think anything too much of it.By Feb. I was suspicious because he was acting so weird. He would say things like,"I hope it's not too late for us" and<BR>"I'm tired and need a break from everything". This shocked me!When he was gone again on a "fishing trip", I looked up "How to tell if your H is having an A" on the internet and he fit the bill. I checked his mobile phone bill and thenwhen I called a frequently dialed number and a woman's voice was on the answering machine-I knew.So I guess I suspected for a month or so but after 25 years of no A's (that I know of) it's changed my world.

Thank you, Nellie. <P>I think I even mentioned you on a reply somewhere in this thread as being someone I believe was caught completely off guard-- so I'm not at all surprised by your reply. <P><BR>To all,<P>By the way, since I did intend this as a poll, I am not replying to each of you seperately, but please know that I am GRATEFUL for each and every reply!! <BR> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited May 20, 2001).]

One last trip through the page... thanks everyone for your thoughts on this!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR>[B]One quick note: <P>...and... is there any way to know ahead of time?? What's the very first tiny sign of trouble?<P>Hi, Nyneve,<P>If I could take a stab at it, I would have to say lack of honesty in general. With my H, for example, he has a way of telling stories that get more and more exaggerated with each telling. At first, I thought this was kinda "cute"--like a personality quirk, and thought everyone just knew he was exaggerating. Then, I'd catch him in bigger fibs, like he was just going to go out for about an hour but never came back for three or more hours. No explanation, very irritated when I asked what happened. Oh, I'd get an explanation eventually, and it was always the same: "I just ran into so-and-so and we shot the breeze for a while."<P>What's so odd is that I've never known him to tell a real whopper of a lie, or at least I've never caught him in one. Until now, that is. Now that he got involved in an EA/possible PA with a mutual friend of ours, suddenly his memory is shot (it used to be almost photographic), he gets 'confused' easily and all that kind of thing.<P>For me, the signs were all there years ago and looking back now, I can see where this is so true. People who are truly honorble do NOT exaggerate so much and so often, to the point where the facts are totally screwed up! To me, if a person is a liar, he will cheat, and if he will cheat, he will steal. He stole my peace of mind, my belief in him and our marriage, and darned near my sanity! As for cheating, he lines up with Bill Clinton so much that BC's become a kind of folk hero to him. Says a lot about my H's character, huh? :eek!:<P>Hope this provides a clue for you. How about everyone else? I'd love to see more posts on this!<BR>Hugs to all,<BR>Winny

Nyneve,<P>I can easily say my exH's A came completely out of the blue for me. We had a relationship that many other people told us they envied or tried to model their own marriages on.<P>All I can say is that NOW, with a clear understanding of the Harley's principles as to the love bank and EN's, in hindsight I can see that I should NOT have been taken completely by surprise by his A. If I had known then what I know now, I would have recognized that I was giving too much time and attention to my work and personal hobbies, at the expense of my marriage. That was totally my fault - I took my relationship and my marriage for granted.<P>However, like others have posted here - my exH never complained or ever shared with me that he was feeling neglected. As a matter of fact, he encouraged me over and over and over to pursue the promotions at work and to go for my first black belt in Tae Kwon Do and then my second degree. All of these activies I pursued with his full support. Needless to say, I guess in retrospect, they cost me dearly in terms of my marriage, because my exH was not 100% honest at all in how he really felt.<P>This is a good post, and you are asking some thought-provoking questions. Like you, I am in a post-divorce relationship. I also think about and wonder about some of the same issues you have raised. I think it is only natural, after all we have experienced when a betrayal has occured, to try to think of every single way to avoid having it happen again.<P>Surely, there are no guarantees, but I do think that the Harley methods offer the most sound protection against another failed relationship, if both parties agree to adopt and enact the principles. Maybe it is like the "edge" you get on a stock's performance if you have done all your homework before purchasing. Surely, that is no guarantee that the market won't take a dive, but it is the best and most educated step you can take before you plunk down your hard earned cash. I want to be as educated in relatiponships as I can before I take the next plunge.<P>Again, great discussion!! Take care, Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

Hi <B>winny</B>,<P>Yes, the honesty is paramount -- I totally agree.<P>Hi <B>Desi</B>,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Surely, there are no guarantees, but I do think that the Harley methods offer the most sound protection against another failed relationship, if both parties agree to adopt and enact the principles. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I guess this truly is the bottom line, and a good thought to end this thread with.<P>Thanks to everyone!! <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Hi SHeryl,<P>I saw the writing on the wall from the very first phone call she made to #1 adulterous relationship. She talked with a tone in her voice that belonged only to me. I call it the I love you tone. She sounded giddie like a 13 year old. This occurred when she was 29.75. I attribute it ot her midlife crisis and the fact that I think she is bipolar (she shows a lot of the symptons.) We had been married for a little over 8 years when it happened.<P>I have studied my W closely to be the man that God wants me to be fore her. I know that I am not perfect and can't fault her for not being perfect. It is my suffering for her to get closer to what she wants to be (which is closer to God.) He asked me to marry her. He asks me to stay with her. I do so because Jesus died on the cross so that I could have the happiness that we all seek for eternity. What He did for us is real LOVE. It is my duty and honor to do the same for my W in response to my love for God to do what I am doing: showing her His love.<P>I have endured 9 by my count. I have my moments when I sya why Lord. But, I look back to when I was woefully confused as she is now. She is getting much better. She still doesn't show me the love and caring that she truly seeks which comes from God. I am merely the conduit that He chose to channel His love to her. <P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited May 22, 2001).]

(((Now that he got involved in an EA/possible PA with a mutual friend of ours, suddenly his memory is shot (it used to be almost photographic), he gets 'confused' easily and all that kind of thing.)))<P>Boy, can I relate to this. Anything that I want to know, he can't remember -- and it's not small stuff either. Insists there's something wrong with his memory, though I've never had it come up except for things like his favorite little assistant going on an out-of-state plane trip with him -- says he didn't tell me because he didn't remember her being there -- <P>Sheeyah right.<P>Psycho_B***h<P>

I've been pondering this for awhile now....<P>Out of the blue---I'd have to say not really. We had a really bad fight about 6 months before his A started (late August 99). The fight was about many of the same things that he says he had the A for. I wanted to go to counseling at that time, but he wouldn't go. He wouldn't tell me what it was he wanted me to change, said to "figure it out". Well, obviously, I didn't figure it out very well. He had a one night stand in December of 99, and began his now 16 month affair in January of 2000.<P>The affair is still going on---emotionally, not physically any more---so I still haven't figured out how to meet his needs apparently.....

I honestly & naively thought that my H as incapable of cheating.<P>Since his drinking got worse, during that time, I assumed he was always at the bar or with his alcoholic friends.<P>What a wake-up call I had!<BR>

I would have to say that my H's A was not out of the blue.<BR>There were signs but I didn't catch onto them until just recently.....last week in fact.....3 months later.<BR>Looking back.....I can't believe I didn't see the signs.<BR>I would get mad when he would come home and say...so and so said that this girl at work thought he was good looking....but now I know that it was a warning from him....telling to get my a** in gear cuz I wasn't the only one interested in him.<BR>I have to admit....he faught....and he faught hard over the last couple of years....but I just didn't see or get it.<BR>When he couldn't fight anymore he didn't bother to talk to me....he just assumed I was over it...and I was assuming that he was over it. Had I opened my eyes just a little sooner....this whole thing probably would have never happened.<BR>Don't get me wrong...I'm not taking any blame off of my H.<BR>I didn't deserve or cause him to have an affair.....but I didn't do enough to make him not want to have one either. He felt neglected for 2 of the last 10 years....and I'm to blame for that but he's the first to tell me and everyone else that I'm not at fault for him having an A.<BR>Our main problem was....lack of communication and an unwillingness to change.<BR>My H's A started by him talking to someone that was supposedly in the same shoes he was in. We later found out that this wasn't true. <P>

Awareness of my H's A didn't come out of the blue....it was pretty damn obvious to me from the get. He tried, rather successfully, to reassure me that "all was well." I should of went with my instincts when I first "smelled a rat." Unfortunately for the both of us, his drug addiction made communication much to be desired. <P>He is now very much aware of the pain that he's created and is extremely remorseful. Too bad for the both of us that he's currently incarcerated because of his and the OW's addiction to cocaine. At least he's straight and has his head back together.......

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by psycho_b:<BR>[B<BR>Boy, can I relate to this. Anything that I want to know, he can't remember -- and it's not small stuff either. Insists there's something wrong with his memory, though I've never had it come up except for things like his favorite little assistant going on an out-of-state plane trip with him -- says he didn't tell me because he didn't remember her being there -- <P>Sheeyah right.<P>Psycho_B***h<P>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear Psycho_b,<BR>Thanks for your reply PB. I know just how you feel! There is something I would like to add to my original post on this thread, and am wondering if this happened to you, too:<BR>There was a pulling away from me that happened. I mean, it was so sudden and unexpected that it caught me off guard. At first I thought he was having a 'bad day.' But after a couple of weeks or so, I realized that his 'bad day' was going on far too long. And, let me tell ya--snooping on my part paid off in spades. I have enough evidence collected to hang him out to dry in divorce court, if it should ever come to that. The lawyer I went to see told me that was the BEST thing I could have done. I documented (and photocopied, for good measure) everything I found. Hey...I may never need to use it all, but if I DO, then I'm prepared.<P>Another thing I want to say is that I've noticed on a lot of posts on the boards here that many people experience just the opposite behavior, too. That is, the WS is just as attentive as before, if not more. I would like to ask them if their spouse's more attentive behavior was like a red flag that the BS's missed? I think that's so sad and very cruel. I mean, with my H, the red flags went up almost right away for me. But to go along thinking things are normal and then finding out they are not must be just horrible. Sorry--that sounds kind of dumb because we ALL feel just horrible, no matter which way it went.<P>I do know this, though: from this point on, any one I will even remotely think about having a relationship with will have to prove to me by their actions and treatment of me that they are worthy of my love. I think I jumped way too quickly into my relationship with my H, and allowed that euphoria of falling in love to blind me to very obvious clues. I'm just so darned sorry for all of the BS's here on MB. No one should ever have to go through such pain, but perhaps we will all be stronger for the experience some day. <P>God bless to all...<BR>Hugs,<BR>Winny<p>[This message has been edited by Winnytoo (edited May 23, 2001).]

Winny - <P>My H is one of those guys who decided it was just great to keep his work life and his home life on separate planes. <P>Even when I worked in the same building, he would keep me very much at arm's length if we happened to interact - very cool and businesslike with me. You would never have known we were married to each other. He insisted that this was necessary because "interaction between spouses can hurt your career! Janie and Jonny (another married couple working there) got caught HOLDING HANDS and it hurt both of them!"<P>Believe me, I am kicking myself for this now, though I had little choice (I thought) but to go along at the time.<P>Of course, this prohibition on interaction *only* applied to me - not to any single female co-worker whom he found attractive and who fed his ego.<P>So, to answer your question - he did not pull away from me at home, where things have always been very very good - but at work, where all his fun and games happen - you betcha.<P>Everytime I pass that place, I think that "companyname" must be an old Indian word for "wh*rehouse."<P>Thanks for asking - <BR>Psycho_B***h<P>

Big time out of the blue.<P>Some history: married 11 years, each others best friends, lovers, inseperable even right up to (or so I though) D-day. The only thing I noticed, is while it was in full swing (EA tuned PA), she was moody alot. She's a suffers from migranes so I attributed it to that. I neve once, even for a nanosecond suspected an A. Even on D-Day, when she sat me down and fought to get it out, EVERYTHING raced through my head...except that. It was the honest to God last thing I'd ever guess. <P>Hindsight, I guess I can see I wasn't meeting some ENs and it was evident after talking to her that OM was. She ended it w/ him a month before telling me. <P>Everyone and anyone who knows us calls us the "perfect couple". We constantly held hands, hugged, kissed openly in public (still do). While I now see affection is alot, it's not everyting. I quickly identified EN's I was lacking, rec. companionship, annoying behavior, domestic support. Now that I'm addressing them and she's ended contact (One can only hope) w/ OM, things are really looking up.<P>Hope this helps,<P>Keeping a stiff upper lip<BR>SP

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by psycho_b:<BR><B>Winny - <P>My H is one of those guys who decided it was just great to keep his work life and his home life on separate planes. <P>Even when I worked in the same building, he would keep me very much at arm's length if we happened to interact - very cool and businesslike with me. You would never have known we were married to each other. He insisted that this was necessary because "interaction between spouses can hurt your career! Janie and Jonny (another married couple working there) got caught HOLDING HANDS and it hurt both of them!"<P>Believe me, I am kicking myself for this now, though I had little choice (I thought) but to go along at the time.<P>Of course, this prohibition on interaction *only* applied to me - not to any single female co-worker whom he found attractive and who fed his ego.<P>So, to answer your question - he did not pull away from me at home, where things have always been very very good - but at work, where all his fun and games happen - you betcha.<P>Everytime I pass that place, I think that "companyname" must be an old Indian word for "wh*rehouse."<P>Thanks for asking - <BR>Psycho_B***h<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>PB<BR>LOL! Honest, you made me laugh a bit with your great post here. You have such a great sense of humor, which I think will help to sustain you through your ordeal, and I wish we were neighbors or something to share coffee and horror stories with! <P>It's odd, but I experienced the SAME thing with my H, but on one front first (work--we even stopped going to the once a year holiday party), then his recreational activities (sorry, no put intended here!) which we used to attend together, and last, on the home front, which is now. Little by little, I was cut out of his life more and more but with each cut, he had PERFECTLY plausible, explainable excuses. Dummy me! I fell for each one of them and all the while I just sensed that something was not quite right. <P>I just wish for one thing and that is that he had been a MAN and come to me when he first had feelings for someone else, and told me so. Why is it that WS's do this?? Why do they play games, lie, sneak, and all that ugly stuff when in the end, they KNOW that it is only going to spell disaster in one way or another? Is the thrill in the chase and the temporary bandaid of "sympathy and camaraderie" (as my H told me his EA was)?? Or, can it be a genuine thing sometimes that a WS truly falls in love with someone else? Either way, I think that breaking the marriage vows is a crime and being upfront and honest about one's feelings should be paramount. It's just my own opinion, but that's the way I feel.<P>Hang in there and I wil, too, PB!<BR>Hugs...<BR>Winny