I'm going to try to express my feelings here as best I can, because I <I>really</I> need to get them out. Frankly, I need help here, and I'm not willing to let go of my marriage, even if it's just on an emotional level.<P>I had an (1) affair several years ago, and my husband has also had an affair (PA, one time after mine, but before knowing of my affair). We've been to counseling (solution-oriented, Harley-type) and to Retrouvaille and have been through recovery, very loving and emotional, thinking that we could make it through with help, we've been married 12 years this year. But after the dust settles, does it not go back to basically the way it was before? We've gone far to try to understand what's happened in our marriage (the affairs hurt us both tremendously), but the basic personality traits are what we are having some problems with here.<P>I've read all of Harley's material, and have respect for him. This isn't about the material, but about the complexity of people. I'm honestly wondering about myself right about now, and I'm NOT liking what I'm seeing at all. I've found myself AGAIN wishing I wasn't married, and this is after years of counseling and talking/communicating with my husband in DEPTH about what we need to change in the way of communication re: our marriage. <BR>I just feel soooooo sad about my marriage. We have absolutely grown in two different directions. Everything we disagree upon. He tells our daughter (very gentle) that she needs to hit someone HARD when they push her around, I feel she needs to go immediately to her teacher. Yes, I feel sick about someone treating my child like that (don't all parents?), but I don't think that violence is the solution, my husband thinks that will put them in their 'place'. This is just one example, and I realize that he's not here to give his side, but I feel very depressed right now about where I am in my marriage. We've exhausted all avenues. <P>Sorry, but I just don't think that 'ANYONE' can make a marriage work, even if they are given all resources. I wish it were possible, though.<p>[This message has been edited by Imzadi (edited May 18, 2001).]

A question for you...<P>Right now, what is more important, you child or your marriage?<P>I'll come back and expound on the reason for my question tomorrow. It's late and I'm beat...<P>Just don't loose hope, I feel quite certain there is a workable solution...<P>Bill

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sorry, but I just don't think that 'ANYONE' can make a marriage work, even if they are given all resources. I wish it were possible, though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>A marriage doesn't take two people...<BR>...it needs an element of "faith"... like GOD...<P>The focus of happiness today is so "self" centered...<BR>...(so the media tells us)...<BR>...we often miss the creative efforts we are called to do in marriage...<BR>...(and I don't mean necessarily to have children!)<P>To find happiness in doing things for "self"...<BR>...is totally distructive to self...<BR>...and to all we come into contact with!<P>To find it in the creative efforts to "be" oneself...<BR>...for the other<BR>...to do for the other<BR>...to talk with the other<BR>...to be one flesh... here on earth...<BR>...is to <B>build</B> your marriage!<P>Are "tools" necessary...<BR>...sure they are...<BR>...but only if they are directed into self<B>less</B> acts that touch beyond the physical flesh!<BR>...and show a complete "sacrifice" to the partner.<P>What is more freightening than someone meeting ENs... <B>asking for nothing in return</B>?!<BR>What is more paradoxical than an angry person... <B>putting away that sin... for no apparent reason</B>?!<BR>What is more scary than being totally honest... <B>about feelings</B>... not facts?!<BR>What is more confusing... than time (our most precious commodity)... being given up so completely by a spouse... who would love nothing more than to have it for him/herself?!<P>Are these... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_rules.html" TARGET=_blank>The Four Rules for a Successful Marriage</A>... that foriegn to a world of secular narcissism?!<P>Are you really practicing "the POJA"... for what it is intended?... empathy/charity!... and not control...<P>Are you really practicing "dialoging"... for what it is intended?... empathy/charity!... and not understanding... <P>I hope these words will give you something to at least consider.<P>You have my thoughts and prayers for today!<P> <P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000254.html" TARGET=_blank>Jim</A> / <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000037.html" TARGET=_blank>NSR</A>

Jim / NSR - <P>Regarding you statement that "To find happiness in doing things for "self"...is totally destructive to self...and to all we come into contact with!" How the heck can this possibly be true? Are you trying to say "To EXCLUSIVELY find happiness in doing things for "self"...is totally destructive to self...and to all we come into contact with!"? E.g., "be a giver, not a taker?" or "Don't be a selfish person?"? If so, that is not what you said.<P>You then state that it builds a marriage "to find happiness in the creative efforts to "be" oneself... for the other". So now I CAN "be" myself, including engaging in creative pursuits, if I'm doing it for my spouse? What?<P>Jim, to have a balanced relationship, both parties find happiness in their interests, shared or not! In my opinion, if I indulge my interest in, for example, tropical fish, and experience happiness doing so even though my spouse doesn't share my interest, my self-fulfillment directly benefits my marriage even though I'm not indulging that interest "...for the other". A healthy, balanced spouse will be gratified that I'm happy (with my fish or whatever) period, whether or not I'm doing it for them or they experience benefits. I don't think this is outside of the POJA. Are you simply stating that I shouldn't engage in interests or behaviors with which my spouse doesn't agree? That would be much different.<P>I'm sorry if I seem to be splitting hairs here, but your statements just seem to me to be either unclear, too simplistic or too pollyanna-ish.<P>Please also explain why you refer to anger as "a sin". St. Augustine's definition of sin was "a mistake". Anger is an emotional response, over which you certainly do not have complete if any control, e.g., "feelings can't be wrong". Since anger is not a choice of free will it simply can't be a mistake. Some people seem to think every emotion that seems negative is automatically bad and should be rejected, whereas I feel that often many negative things are healthy catalysts for change that should be embraced. Did you really mean that anger can be unproductive or can be self-indulgent? <P>Lastly, I don't understand why you state that 'dialoging' has the goal of empathy/charity rather than understanding. The very definition of empathy is understanding and entering someone's feelings. Thus, without understanding, there can be no empathy.<P>Please also explain what you mean by "secular narcissism". <P>Thank you - I look forward to your response!<BR>Gobyfish

Hi Gobyfish... <P>Ah... philosophy on a morning/afternoon when my kids are gone.<P>Your are correct in restating what I said...<BR>"to find happiness <B>exclusively</B> in doing things for self"...<BR>is totally destructive to self...and to all we come into contact with!"<P><B>Yes</B>... "be a giver, not a taker"! (obviously, not to exclusion of enjoying the good gifts of the world)<BR><B>Yes</B>... "Don't be a selfish person"!<P><BR>"So now I CAN "be" myself, including engaging in creative pursuits, if I'm doing it for my spouse?"<BR><B>Be</B>ing oneself isn't a static state of "being"... but a progression of a journey to conversion of hope, charity and faith...<BR>To engage in creative pursuits... by doing for your spouse... is an act of doing for one greater than "self"... for in the end... we have gained nothing but through relationships with man and God... since all our built up earthly wealth will not be taken with us to our journey's end.<P><B>Rule 1</B>; Love God with your whole heart and soul and being... (by <B>doing for your spouse</B> you acknowledge acceptance of HIS will)<BR><B>Rule 2</B>; Love your neighbor as yourself... (no one being closer to being <B>your</B> neighbor than your spouse)<P>There is nothing more Christ-like than <B>doing for your spouse</B>!<P>----------------------------------------------<P>I fully agree to "have a balanced relationship"... no question about this!<BR>There is absolutely nothing wrong with having interests in things outside your spouse's interests...<BR>...it's when a spouse suffers due to lack of "attention" from the other spouse...<BR>...and then a re-evaluation, a readjustment to the journey, needs to take place.<BR>I agree... individual interests... are not against the POJA.<P>I'd have to agree with you...<BR>...my statements here are simplistic...<BR>...and for that reason... difficult to follow.<BR>A quote from G. K. Chesterton... "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."<P>----------------------------------------------<P>Not all "anger" is sin... I agree with you. Even Jesus, was angered by the merchants in the Temple...<BR>But... what I am referring to the sin of "wrath"(anger) as expressed by St. John Cassian and St Gregory the Great(Moralia in Job 31,45)... a 'capital' sin...a "sin that cries to heaven"...<BR>When "anger" becomes "a desire for revenge"... (stepping beyond the immediacy of "feeling")<BR>Mt. 5:21-22... "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you, that whosoever is <B>angry</B> with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. "<BR>Anger (is not always) but can be unproductive or can be self-indulgent... especially when "held onto" for long periods of time... as in those unrepentant of their own faults (mine included!)<P>---------------------------------------------<P>The 'dialoging' I was referring to was that espoused in both the <A HREF="http://www.wwme.org/new.html" TARGET=_blank>World Wide Marriage Encounter</A> and <A HREF="http://www.retrouvaille.org/" TARGET=_blank>Retrouvaille</A> programs. The concept of empathy, I was trying to relate" is not a fact based understanding... but more of an unconditional acceptance of "feelings"... and you're right "feelings are neither right nor wrong, good or bad". The definition of empathy I was using (maybe a bit unclear if you haven't attended WWME or Retrouvaille) is "the attribution of one's own feelings to an object"... in the case the object of "your spouses concern."<P>By "secular narcissism"... (not an expression used regularly)...<BR>I mean the societal acceptance (especially in today's world/media) that "everything is OK" when looking at one's own happiness... when one (individually) perceive they are not harming anyone else (especially "spiritually"). For example... my xW... 3 weeks after D-day... sat my 3 kids down [ages 7, 9 and 17 at the time] and said... "I know mommy is committing adultery... but sometimes we have do things like this... so mommy can be a better mother".(Isn't this the message of soap operas?) I know you think is extreme (it is factual... I have it in writing)... but even milder examples like this are proof that 'relativism' of truth/sin/right/wrong, encouraged by a secularizing media, is pressing the 'validity' of narcissistic behavior! Isn't this all to evident in our WSs?<P>-----------------------------------------------<P>I appreciate your time into my own musings.<P> <P>Jim

I apologize beforehand for the way this may come across, but is this forum specifically ONLY for Christians? Because I didn't believe I would be given a sermon when I asked for advice. <P>I would like to salvage my marriage, and if coming here and trying to get input on my situation sounded like I was being selfish and self-centered, I apologize for that, that wasn't my intent. My concern is with the differences in the way my husband and I look at everything in life, and his anger in general. I don't think that in certain circumstances that counseling can help actually 'change' a person. I'll continue to go to my counselor (alone, as usual) and get input, thanks.<p>[This message has been edited by Imzadi (edited May 19, 2001).]

I'm very sorry Imzadi! I just got caught up in NSR/Jim's ideas and wasn't being considerate! Jim, my response to your last post here can be found under a new post within General Questions II under "faith as related to H / W relation" at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/009038.html." TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/009038.html.</A> Imzadi, hopefully this will clear your thread for more on-target responses!<P>gobyfish<BR>

Imzadi, <P>No, this is not a Christian forum. This is a Marriage Builders forum and many of the participants are devout Christians. They give their responses from their frames of reference, as do we all.<P>It is TOUGH to keep the marriage going once you've reached the point where counselling is no longer "necessary." However, if you both FOLLOW what you've learned, then it isn't difficult to deal with the issues that come up. Interviews with happily married couples have shown that they all have upwards of between 10-20 issues on which they simply cannot agree... 10-20 "irreconcilable differences" - and they are still happily married!! How can this happen? By the give and take - compromise - and communication.<P>If <B>both</B> of you follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, practice the negotiating skills that the Harley's teach, identify and eliminate the Love Busters and identify and meet each other's emotional needs, you'll have it. Yep, way easier said than done.<P>Have you told your husband that it troubles you that he advocates violence to your child? Have you told your husband that you have been having uneasy and unhappy feelings about your marriage? If not, you need to do so, but at a time and in an environment that sould make it possible for him to hear you.<P>With myself, I have found that I need continual reinforcement of any behavioral practices I've learned. By that, I mean, I must keep reading the books, even, sometimes going to the workshops or the seminars. I think that it is difficult to change life-long behavior patterns unless you choose to be committed to changing them and make that choice every single day of your life. And, unfortunately, "in this day and age" society allows - no, encourages - us to choose the easy way out - quitting.<P>Divorce is devastating to all it touches - particularly your children. And it doesn't solve anything - but certainly brings with it an entirely new set of problems. <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

{{{Imzadi}}},<P>I apologize for taking your post away from the topic of your concern.<P>No this forum is not <B>just for </B> Christians.<P>I'm sorry my response... which I had primarily intended for <B>gobyfish</B>... was not well placed... and should have been taken off to another thread/post.<P>I can see how it can be perceived as <B>sermon</B>-izing...<BR>...but I in no way intended to say you are being selfish for asking for advice....<BR>If that's the way it came across... I very much ask for your apology.<P>I've been around a while... and the main thrust of my response was that Plan A's major idea is to eliminate the 'selfishness' of the 'takers' in our own relationships...<BR>...and in no way does that imply... if you seek advice or counsel... that <B>that</B> makes you selfish.<P>Your concern about your H's anger is clearly valid...<BR>some ideas/books: <BR><OL TYPE=1><BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0806509376" TARGET=_blank><B>Anger : How to Live With and Without It</B></A> by Albert Ellis <BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1879237970" TARGET=_blank><B>Angry All the Time :</B> An Emergency Guide to Anger Control</A> by Ron Potter-Efron, Ronald T. Potter-Efron <BR><LI> <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800786467" TARGET=_blank><B>Getting the Best of Your Anger</B></A> by Les Carter<BR></OL><P>In your own experience, you have noticed that counseling doesn't guarantee a change...<BR>...that is true of any intervention...<BR>...that's why I was suggesting a more spritual perspective... ...mostly for yourself.<P><BR>Again I'm sorry for taking your post off track.<P> <P>Jim

Imzadi,<P>I know that things look pretty bad right now, and I know that they feel worse. I have been in a similar situation. My H did not want to bend, meet my EM's and so forth. <P>I completely sympathize with you, I know when you are the only one doing the giving in a relationship, and you're the only one trying it seems very worthless to go on. <P>My husband and I both strayed, and it's one big blame session after another. Sometimes you just CAN'T change a person. You either have to accept those differences or go your separate ways. If there is absolutely no chance for either of you finding acceptance and forgiveness of the other, chances are, neither one of you are willing to compromise on other issues. <P>I have been married to my H for 14 years, not all of which were happy years, we have children, but unlike you, there is no major differences in our opinions on how they are raised.<P>I believe if the marriage is detrimental to the children's health or well being, then they need to be removed from the situation. BUT, only you can decide that.<P>It is a very hard decision to make, and again you have my sympathy. Follow your heart. You will know if the time has come to end your marriage. There are some wonderful ppl here willing to give you encouragement, advice and support, take advantage of it. Sit down with your H and tell him as calmly as possible what needs to change, and what will happen if things DON'T change, set a time limit for those changes to occur. Then follow through. Sometimes a temporary separation instead of divorce is enough to let the spouse "see the light".<P>Best of luck, you are in my thoughts,<P>Cyn