WilliamJ,<P>After reading your 'another thought' post, I thought it appropriate to try this one (grin).<P>MY part in H's A's:<P>I am controlling<BR>I took him for granted that he would always be here<BR>I am not a good listener (although I 'thought' I was)<BR>The house and kids came first, no matter what.<BR>I asked the wrong questions<BR>I didn't think of his needs enough, selfish in my own obviously.<BR>My EN's were being met, I was happy.<BR>I shrugged off his opinions, not taking them seriously enough<P>These are all I can think of at present. I know there are more, and I make sure each day I discover something new, I share that with my H. Sure, he still has to come to grips with his share of our marital problems, but he needs time. I'm in plan A. I'm changing. I'm liking it. H is noticing it. When he's ready, and hopefully he will be one day, he can change too.<P>Karen<BR>

Ok, here's my list <P>I was too needy. I didn't work and depended on my ex too much financially. He told me he didn't want me to work because that was what he knew I wanted to hear.<P>I lived for my children and forgot I had a husband. My children were my #1 priority. My philosophy was: He can fend for himself, they can't. <P>Now bear in mind that I was being physically abused the whole time I was married. It makes it a little difficult to be nice to someone when they're kicking your a$$. But I have figured out where I went wrong and I've tried to change that. I'm sure there were other things but these are the 2 that I thought of first.<P>Mitzi

BS's have NO part, nor any responsiblity in the WS's choice to have an affair. An A is an individualized choice. Perhaps WS's have some responsiblity in the breakdown of the marriage, but I think it is abhorrently wrong to suggest that the BS had a role in the affair.<p>[This message has been edited by NewVoyager (edited May 19, 2001).]

NewVoyager,<P>I think that's what Topie meant when this was posted. I didn't force my ex to have an affair but I did contribute somewhat to the breakdown of the marriage.<P>Mitzi

Mitzi,<P>for the record..abusers like there SO at home, and to be dependent on them. Otherwise it is more difficult to abuse them. and being too needy...heck you were being beat...you had NO PART in your H's A...he was a weak man..who gets his thrills out of beating up women. You are a much better person...JMHO...MC

nv, check your post, i think you mean that BS's do not have a direct responisbility / blame for the choice of the WS to have an A but that they share in the responsibility for the Marriage now and then.

MyCross,<P>I had no part in the affair itself. But I didn't help the situation. I can look back and see where I was wrong also. And I'm not afraid to admit that. It could be that staying as long as I did was what contributed to how bad things got. Don't get me wrong. I'm not taking up for my ex. Not at all. My marriage is over and was one that couldn't be fixed and didn't need to be. I'm happier without him.<P>But I'm not completely blameless in how bad my marriage was. But I also do know that his A was not my fault. Could I have made things better? I don't know and will never know. Could he have changed? Maybe, but he was unwilling. I have grown and moved on and am thankful everyday that things didn't get worse than they did.<P>Mitzi

Okay, I worded the question wrong. What can I say? I was trying to keep my post short! <P>The WS is the one who should own up to their responsibilities for having the A. In no way is THAT the BS's fault. The point of the matter, is that in the majority of marriages where an A takes place, there are underlying problems.... that are contributed to by BOTH spouses. <P>Here in the forum, it seems as though we all focus on the WS. We use this place to vent to those who understand, and will listen. MB is supposed to be about both BS and WS. I guess I was just trying to focus a little bit more on us BS's, and perhaps help identify the finer details that WE need to change.. it's all to plan A, it's vitally necessary. You can't plan A unless you can change yourself and be happy.<P>It took me a couple of months to see 'my part'. I was hoping that this different side of the situations might help those who haven't reached this level, to reach it.<P>Karen<BR>

Hmmm...I've been thinking about that, of course. But I have only recently discovered the affair. I did have months worth of suspicions so I have thought about this very question.<P>My husband is military and recently faced serious challenges in working with certain superiors in his unit. In a nutshell, he was miserable at work, and hoped to leave the military. I was not supportive of his ideas about leaving the service, since I've enjoyed the military lifestyle for years. I wanted him to stay in, but I should have communicated to him that I would have been just as quick to support him if he decided to leave the service.<P>Other than that, I think I was too defensive, quick to leap to conclusions about something he said which I misinterpreted and say something stinging to him. I sparked quite a few arguments and ended up putting him on the defensive and adding to his feelings of unhappiness.<P>My husband has his own reasons. The OW is an ex-GF from before H and I even met, so he believes he's "in love" with her. Personally, I think H has some serious issues he needs to deal with in a counselor's office, so I am not sure he is CAPABLE of being "in love" with anyone, even me. Which is not to say I think he doesn't love me, but I'm not sure he really understands what love really is.<P>Anyway, husband said he thought that I "deserved better" than to have a husband like him, especially since he'd always love this other girl. He also said I was a "perfect wife", while his own efforts to be a husband always seemed to come up short, although I never thought any such thing.<P>Anyway, that's me...

I made the fatal error of not reading her mind and getting frustrated because I couldn't.<P>Seriously, I was very unhappy with our relationship and I didn't insist we do something about it. She did something about it, alright.<P>WAT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Topie25:<BR><B>The point of the matter is that in the majority of marriages where an A takes place, there are underlying problems.... that are contributed to by BOTH spouses. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Karen, you're so right. But please notice that this is also true of marriages where there is NO A!<P>Adrian

chazbutler,<P>I read your post above and you said<P><BR>"i think you mean that BS's do not have a direct responisbility / blame for the choice of the WS to have an A but that they share in the responsibility for the Marriage now and then."<P>I just wanted to let you know that I agree with your words very much. Perhaps we previously had a "failure to communicate". Is so, I apologize.<P>Peppermint

I was selfless<BR>I blindly trusted<BR>I gave H my full support for all his dreams<BR>I took care of all the details so that he could pursue his dreams<BR>I gave him beautiful children and devoted myself to raising them<BR>Was I the perfect wife? No, there is no such thing.

Something we should all think about at some point. After all no one is perfect. OK.<P>I am very self-sufficient and didn't realize how fragile his ego was and didn't find praise for his efforts enough.<P>I didn't realize how much men express love through sex and actually how important it is to them.<P>My children became the most important thing in my life which tended to leave him feeling abandoned.<P>There are many others but in explanation I will say that none of what I did was intentional...and I believe a lot of it was instinctual...driven by nature as form of survival of the species. Nature programed me to place my children's survival above my own or my husbands...nature programed me to expect my husband or mate to be the provider and not to need anything to do so but my domestic support...nature programed me to limit my sexual exposure while granting my mate the instinctive need to progreate with losts of women (to spread his seed)...my fault was to see that I did not live in the past but today and things have changed and I needed to have adapted to treat my husband as the modern man he has to be...given the society we live in today. This actually means fighting my nature a little...both my human evolutionary nature and my own physical nature because they can both led you astray in today's world. <P>If you look carefully you see the same pattern in the unmet needs of the wives...generally of course...nature's trying to drive our actions to acheive an ancient goad. Our job is to overcome natures directives and remember that nature is concerned only with the survival of the species and not the survival of marriages. Food for thought, huh.<P><BR>Faye<P>

As you mention here, the thread "another thought" is right along this line. Both threads are thought provoking. I've been reading "another thought" all day. Have posted over there a couple of times. Showed it to my husband (WS). He posted there too. It's been very interesting. I've come to some new revelations today.<BR> <BR>So what were my contributions to the problems in my marriage? Note I did not say that I contributed to/take blame for/or caused my husbands affairs (10 in 2.5 years). He'd been having them through our entire engagement and marriage. We are newly weds (6/2000) I've had 2 months and all day today to think on this one.<P><BR>Note that before we read, "Surviving an Affair,” my husband told me that he was very happy in our marriage. Until I found out about his affairs in March of this year I believed him. Now he tells me:<P>--That his EN for conversation was not being met. So he was online talking to women and having affairs with them. Of course my EN for conversation was not being me either because he was never available for conversation - he was online "working" and chatting with his women.<P>--He says that he his EN for adoration was not being met. I told him often that I love him and thought he was wonderful. But as you will see below, it was getting harder and harder for me to feel that I adored him.<P>As for my further evaluation of my contribution to our problems: <P>--Even though this is my third marriage, I did not know what people meant when they said marriage is hard work. I knew it was hard, but I did not know what work I was supposed to be doing besides just loving my husband. Thank goodness I found MB, now I know. And thank goodness my husband agrees that MBs is the path for us to take.<P>--I believed him when he told me that his needs were being met, that he was happy and committed to me. So I am too gullible. I've been told that often.<P>--Though I told my husband when I had needs that were not being met, I did not feel I had the right to really ask for them to be met. So I was always apologetic about it. This is a REALLY BIG FLAW. Needs like...<BR>----I needed for him to spend some time with me without the children. Wanted us to go on dates, walks, etc. He always said yes but would not do it. Was just not interested.<BR>----I needed him to help me with HIS children, <BR>----I needed help with the house (I work full time too) <BR>----I needed him to get off the computer after work hours (he works at home when he is not traveling), stop chatting with his women friends, and be part of the family <BR>----I needed more affection in the form of gifts, phone calls, etc. (Like a Valentine's Day card/candy/something would have been nice). He was on a business trip that week in San Francisco. It turns out that his girl friends got cards, one got a dinner date, two got long phone calls (and phone sex). I got a two-line email saying that he likes to give himself instead of things like flowers and candy. Turns out I did not even get him - the other women had him. WOW that helped meet my ENs.<P>--In my relationships, I have a tendency to gloss things over until the hit me square in the face. I did not pay attention to my gut feelings when I knew there was a problem. In December I was concerned about the time he spent on the computer. When I looked on it I found photos sent to him by six or seven women. Not a good sign. But I pushed it aside, saying they were just chat friends. "He would never cheat on me."<P>--And my biggest sin - giving too much of myself, or loosing myself in the day-to-day living, being a pushover. <BR>My H moved from MD to NM when we got married. We created a blended family - he brought his two youngest (girl 11 and boy 13). I have a 12-year-old son. We lived in an apartment while our new house was built. The apartment was a terrible place to start out. Not enough room. All of the housework got dumped on me. The kids fought constantly. I was left to deal with it most of the time by myself. His son has some very serious emotional problems. So instead of telling him, these are your kids, get a new job so you can stay in town and deal with their problems, I took on the burden. It was not long before I was lost in the problems of taking the children to counselors, dealing with his son's disruptions. The disruptions were so bad that the other two finally called the police. I made it easy for him to dump his kids and problems on me. So I guess I was not any fun anymore. It was easy for him to escape to the computer, his chat rooms, and his lovers. They fawned all over him, telling him what a wonderful single father he was. He never told them that he'd gotten married. He helped them with their divorce and child custody problems. He was the most wonderful man and friend to them. They busted his ego, had phone/cyber sex with him. A few met him and had dates with him. And I become the not-so-fun wife. <P>Gee, after re-reading the above, I think I'm the one who should have had an affair. This has been powerful. I have not been able to articulate some of this stuff until just now as I was writing this post. So I guess that's why it probably sound a little angry. Angry with myself and with him for the things he did. But very helpful. <P>But I do keep seeing the same thing when it comes to ENs in our relationship. My husband's ENs of conversation and adoration may not have been met totally in our relationship. But he'd gotten in the habit of having them met by other women before and during our engagement. So he never gave me the chance to meet those needs even after we were married. That is not until now. <P>Thanks for your thread.<P>Link to "another thought"<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/009017.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/009017.html</A> <BR>

Here's mine. A lot of you took the words out of my mouth. I hope you don't mind me using your thoughts...<P>-Conversation<BR>--Which leads to - total honesty - Example, if H asked if everything was ok, I said sure, everything is fine when I knew it wasn't.<BR>---Which then lead to - I knew we were starting to become unhappy but didn't actually say HEY, woah, there is somthing wrong!<BR>-I didn't think of his needs enough, like SF. I KNEW SF was probably his #1 EN.<P>Buffy wrote:<BR>"I didn't realize how much men express love through sex and actually how important it is to them."<P>WOW! Me too!!!<P>H expressed this to me one time that I could think of. I goofed that one big!<BR> <BR>-I took him for granted. <BR>-I blindly trusted.<BR>-Disrespectful judgements<BR>-Thinking that our issues would just "fix" themselves and it would be ok again. Big, no HUGE mistake!!!!!!!!!!!!<P>I know there is more but this is really draining to write this. Oh man, I really goofed. I am in NO way taking responsibility for my H's A but I take COMPLETE responsibility for my part in the state of our M prior to the A.<P>K<P>*I just remembered some more*<P><p>[This message has been edited by Knewjie (edited May 19, 2001).]

I did several things wrong.<P>I was an 'enabler' - classic co-dependent. I worked for two years while H was unemployed and not really looking that hard for work. I also took care of the house, the shopping, our social life, and essentially did everything on *his* part *for* him. I *allowed* it to happen. I did too much and didn't insist that he do enough. I should have let us get kicked out into the street, if necessary, to show H a lesson in financial responsibility.<P>When he started exhibiting signs of problems with anger management and name-calling I did not get us into counseling soon enough. I should have insisted the very first time that it happened, which was about 6 months after we were married.<P>I wanted to keep the downtown apartment (read: near bars, clubs, nightlife) that we lived in, which was very expensive - which meant that we had to have a roommate for the first year-and-a-half of our marriage. No one should have a roommate, particularly not young college-aged males who are still into the "party" life. I should have negotiated with him to get a lease in another part of town that had more married couples - just to take away that temptation. <P>I shouldn't have tried to hold it all in for as long as I did. I was very, very, very unhappy with the marriage almost from the word "go." But I kept thinking that it was because of other things, such as my best friend's death. So when my unhappiness finally surfaced, there were years and years worth of painful, disappointing events to deal with.<P>I should have drawn firmer boundaries with him. I shouldn't have let him disrespect me - my person, my money, my time ... sure, he had a hand in it, a big hand. But the point is, I LET him.<P>belld

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by belldandy:<BR><B>I did several things wrong.<P>I was an 'enabler' - classic co-dependent. I worked for two years while H was unemployed and not really looking that hard for work. I also took care of the house, the shopping, our social life, and essentially did everything on *his* part *for* him. I *allowed* it to happen. I did too much and didn't insist that he do enough. I should have let us get kicked out into the street, if necessary, to show H a lesson in financial responsibility.<P>I shouldn't have tried to hold it all in for as long as I did. <P>I should have drawn firmer boundaries with him. I shouldn't have let him disrespect me - my person, my money, my time ... sure, he had a hand in it, a big hand. But the point is, I LET him.<P>belld</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Belldandy<P>My edited version of your post just screams ME TOO!!!!<P>Oh wow, oh wow, oh wow. Here comes the depression all over again...<P>K

I might learn something by responding to this post so I shall do so. First of all, I totally have to say "Me too!",when it comes to not realizing the importance of sex in a marriage. My H would mention this from time to time but I thought it was a typical male complaint and brushed it off. I thought my H would never have an A and I suppose I thought that if he did, it would be a one-night stand. I would never have dreamed that he could fall "in love" with someone else. I thought he adored me!<BR>When I think back to the last year of our marriage, I remember times he tryed to reach out and bring us closer together. I didn't realize it at the time because I thought he always wanted his 'space'. I was too busy with family things to take much notice. I gave him too much freedom because I totally trusted him. Now I know there is no such thing as an A proof marriage.<BR>I also thought that loving him and putting up with his shortfalls was being a good wife. Now I know that marriage is alot more work than just that.<BR>I believe that I am 50% responsible for our problems. He is responsible for not communicating more with me and for allowing himself to get involved with her.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peppermint:<BR><B>chazbutler,<P>I just wanted to let you know that I agree with your words very much. Perhaps we previously had a "failure to communicate". Is so, I apologize.<P>Peppermint</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you<P>I always believed that to be the case.<BR>