I put a lot of credence in the Harley priciples, because many of them seem right on the mark. However, in SAA, Harley states that "most affairs begin and end quietly." I would like to add something to that: "...only if no one finds out."<P>I have read many posts on MB, and I've seen a disproportionate number of BS for whom the A did *not* quietly. In fact, when I read most of the boards tailored to this subject matter, the OP continues to try and get involved after the A is over. Usually by ratting on the BS. <P>Maybe there are a lot of BS who don't even know that they are a BS for whom the A ended "quietly," and they have no need to seek a support group. That could be the case. But i don't believe for a minute that when a BS finds out about the A it ends quietly. I also believe that there is a staggering number of BS who only find out of the A because the OP tattles, and that this happens more frequently than not.<P>What is your opinion?<P>belld

Let's just say we had to move halfway across the country for his affair to end, and then he still got letters from her. I found one letting him know that she'd drive out and bring him back home when he was ready. Whatever.<P>Another funny element -- I found out for sure that something fishy was going on (I suspected he was up to something_ when she called our apartment at midnight looking for him and actually had the nerve to ask for him when I answered. He was out with his friends (that's what I thought anyways). She then informed me that she had seen him at the dance club making out with another girl. So basically she called me because she was pissed that he had betrayed her. She gave me a description of this other girl (I wondered if it was an old OW). She went on to tell me that she had been seeing H occasionally the past month and they had just had their first real "date" earlier that week. But she said it wasn't sexual. I was foolish enough to kinda trust her and start chatting with her (I was only 21). <P>Sure enough, H came traipsing in around 4am. But I had been outside watching for him and sure enough I saw him shirtless in a car with a girl matching the OW's description. And she wasn't checking for moles. His shirt was hanging out the dang window, so I knew it was him. So I paced around the apartments for a while. He caught a glimpse of me and suddenly got busy getting dressed, but I never let on that I saw him. She drove him to a different parking lot where they thought I couldn't see, and he gets out of the car and comes walking towards our apartment. I never let on to what I saw and asked what had happened (he was supposed to be getting a beer with the guys after the softball game...) He had some story about getting ditched at the bar and having to half-walk, half-hitchhike home 20 miles. And the relationship with the OW that called me continued.<P>To this day, he has NEVER acknowledged the girl in the car. He only fessed up to sleeping with the OW because we got notice of certified mail from her and he was half-afraid it might be paternity papers or something.<P>Needless to say, H's affiar did not end quietly. In all honesty, I still live in fear that one of these women will show up at our door demanding child support. So in some ways, it will never be over.<P>LG

I think most affairs end quietly especially as far as any violence taking place. I think the number is staggering where the BS never knows he/she has been betrayed. I bet the OP rarely tattles. But, what do I know?

I am sure that if I hadn't discovered, confronted my husband and then gotten into Miss Kitty's face and threatened to tell her husband, it would have gone on and on for years.<P>She thinks I am a psycho, from all that my husband has told her and all the mean things that I said to her. And I am sure that I scared her with some of the truths that I revealed about my husband.<P>But that's cool

My H's A didn't end quietly because the former OW initiated contact 9 months (via e-mail) after my H dumped her. She wanted to resume A. He wrote her a "No Contact" letter.<P>1 year after he sent her "No Contact" letter, she initiates contact again (via e-mail)! He sends her another "No Contact" letter.<P>This is all within a period of 2 years! Their A was 7-weeks long!<P>I cross my fingers and hope that this psycho Bar-Fly doesn't try again! Some people just can't get a life!

I too can relate. My H's EMR was (I approximate) only about 5-6 months long ... not that long in the grand scheme of things. I've had relationships when I was single that lasted about that long. After about a month after the break-up, I was ready to move on, without the other person in my life. I shut the door and locked it.<P>There must be some kind of odd dynamic between an OP and a MP that is different. Perhaps the OP figures that since they were in a high-risk relationship, they are somehow "due" more than they got? I don't know. All I know is that people who can't let go quietly really scare me ...<P>belld

I agree Belldandy. Why is it that some OP just can't let go? Initially, there were no legal & marital vows between the affairees, so why do some OP keep hanging on? Why can't they move forward instead of keeping themselves in a destructive relationship?<P>It just doesn't make any sense.<P>What scares me, is that this former OW slept with my H, 4 times. She claims that she loves him with all her heart. How is that possible? She saw him when he was at his worst...drunk! It seems so demented & disolutional.<P>Fog speak...fantasy in their minds...<BR>

My ex's last OW is still there... eighteen months and counting (of course, now he's single, so um, it doesn't **really** matter)... but she would have hung on, divorce or no divorce, I'm sure of it. <P>Way back in February 2000 I wrote that she was a circling vulture... and that's indeed what she is. <P>I don't think that most end in violence, but I don't believe that most end "quietly"... you have to cut them off with a sharp knife!<P>

Hi Belldandy, <P>IMHO, these don't end quietly. The start off in secret, then it is exposed. What are the chances of anything that is exposed ending quietly? I guess I need to ask what does ending it quietly mean? <P>It was not on the 11 o'clock news but a lot of people know. It did not make the front page news but I was thinking about taking an add out to notify everyone in the Bay Area for the W's to watch out since OW is now on the loose again looking for her next victim. <P>OW has been trying to keep contact up. I got the 'privilege' to hear her sickening sweet message of how she is the one responsible for sending H back to his family. My o my, OW does have a vanity issue. <P>Quietly? IMHO NO. Probable, but when you are dealing with a psyco, probably not. <P>Why do OPs hang on soo long, why can't they just let go? Because in their nimble minds they actually believe they are in some way married to the WS. I have that in writing from this nutty OW. <P>Here's a partial of OW's e-mail to H back in Feb. <P>"We not only have sexual love but emotional love and we've fallen in love in our hearts. Perhaps our relationship is better than a marriage? Perhaps it IS a marriage. A real one."<P><BR>A confessed EA/PA!!!<P>One for Ripley's Believe It or Nut!!!!<P>L.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited May 22, 2001).]

Sheryl...I just love that description...a circling vulture! So true! So true!

That's a toughy belledandy!<P>I wonder if it makes a difference if it's an EA or a PA? IMO, I would think it does.<P>OW #1 started as EA, and then it turned PA. Once I found out about it, it stopped, and is now back to an EA. However, the contact is slowly dwindling (as far as I know), and is now down to the odd emails here and there. I would bet that the quiet ending will come fairly soon. The emails will become fewer and farther in between, until nothing.<P>OW #2 was basically a PA. So far as I know, a one night stand, with a little bit of talking every now and then afterwards. But since the discovery, they met one more time for breakfast (without the nookie), and haven't spoken since (I actually talked to the OW just the other day, which is how I know this).<P>Food for thought: do you think that the way it ends depends on just how many lies brought it together in the first place? I would assume that for everyone on this planet, being lied to is a huge LB. So for both the WS and the OP, once the lies are revealed, and the truth comes out, depending on just how big the lies were, I would bet that that makes a huge difference on whether or not the breakup is quiet. E.g. WS is married, OP doesn't know it, and thinks WS is single. OP finds out WS is married, through whatever means. Wouldn't THAT be a MEGA LB? It would be to me, and I can assure you, it would not end quietly! (meaning, if I were the OP, I would for certain tell the OP's spouse, and who knows where that would lead to !)<P>Karen<BR>

I TOTALLY disagree. Almost all the affairs that I have seen in my life have ended in a really ugly way except two. Every man I know who has ended things with a single OW (all the MM I know personally had single OW, not married ones so I can only speak to that aspect) had the OW freak out on them. MY H's affair would have ended very quietly if he'd had his way. His OW wasn't going down without a fight and causing me as much pain as possible. Most of the guys I know their wives have also gotten phone calls from the OW once she was dumped.<P>The 2 exceptions - MW friend involved with serial cheater MM (she found that out later). MW decided she needed to work on her marriage. She had a whole big dramatic speech prepared for MM. He never called her again, apparently he had moved on to someone else.<P>SG involved with MW - MW decided she needed to work on her marriage. She gave SG a big, dramatic tearful speech. SG could have cared less, he was getting bored anyway.

fairydust,<P>It does seem that the nastiest EMR breakups seem to be between single OW and MM. Almost ALL will tell! There is no doubt in my mind that my H wanted to end it with the OW very quietly and for her to just fade into the woodwork. When she didn't and instead sent me a seething pile of documentation about the EMR, he was furious, couldn't believe that she would do something like that. I told him that I had always expected that the day would come when she unleashed her full fury. <P>He just did *not* get it.<P>Frank Pittman's book "Private Lies" does make a delineation between a single OM and a single OW. Most of the time upon discovery, the single OM will vamoose so fast he leaves skidmarks. Doesn't want to confront an angry H who might pound the crap out of him. A single OW seems to have more balls when it comes to facing the MM's W.<P>belld

My H had both a EA and a PA. The EA was pretty long time and the PA was about 9 months.<P>The affair didnt end quietly due to repeated contact between spouse after repeated no contact attempts. The repeated contact would result in my finding out about contact. All 3 of us worked together.<P>On Dday - I discovered him at her house. He swore to me no contact but I doubt that ever took effect. I being her boss quietly fired her and gave her a letter of recommendation and told everyone she voluntarly left our employ.<P>Second time my H left me for her, I went to my mom for support and told his parents. He came back and again swore off contact. That lasted about 4 days.<P>She called me when he came back home and told me stories before they started recontact.<P>Third time, I caught an email btwn them and blew up in the office at work. Made big scene. He got fired. I kicked him out of the house, seems like entire world knows. He has come home and sent letter of no contact it is almost 3 months and we seem to be doing a lot better.<P>I just keep waiting for the other shoe to drop wondering if she will call me or send me stuff. She is very brazen so I dont doubt that she would do it.<P>

ZZZ,<P>I cannot believe that you gave her a letter of recommendation.<P>I would have roasted in h*ll before I did that for my H's XOW. Not only because she hurt me by sleeping with my H; but because it was an unethical thing to do.<P>If it were me, I would have told every single person who called for a reference that she was canned for having an EMR with a MM in the office!<P>belld >

Mean A's actually end. My H can't seem to break off with OW (she was a M when A, started now been divorce over 18 mths, maybe closer to 2 yrs), everytime he does she call, & calls & I don't know what else & he goes running back to her as fast as he can, saying I tried but I just can't do it.

I'm still waiting for the affair to end. However, I do agree that the single OW is the most difficult to get rid of, the craziest and the one most likely to tell.<P>I have heard from people who were there the night she told him that he had better leave me "or else" - just another thing that makes me wonder exactly what he could possibly see in her. She honestly thinks that she is so much better than I am as a mate for him. Well, more power to her. While it hasn't happened yet, I have no doubt that their relationship is doomed. Borne on the wings of lies and carried on in the thick of deception - how could it possibly be a successful long-term relationship? A man who once had some dreams and motivation involved with a bimbo that is dumb as a stick and had five jobs in two years ...<BR>not to mention has a reputation among the white trash of town as a pig...<P>This one will not end quietly unless SHE ends it because she finds someone else. If he tries to end it she will be hell on wheels. Too bad for him huh?<BR> <BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

terri,<P>Definitely hard to get rid of a single OW. I'd have better luck chiseling barnacles off the Titanic. I suppose it's because they have the least to lose of all the types of OP. No fear of discovery by their spouse, and unlike the OM, no fear (well, usually) of getting beaten to a pulp by an enraged W. I know this sounds deranged, but I wish that H's XOW would have been married. I think she a) would have gone away quicker, and b) I'd have another BS to confide in who was going through the same thing I was ...<P>belld

belld - You don't sound at all deranged. I have felt that way about slug. Still do.<P>Even if my husband never comes back to me, I will get some satisfaction when I know that she doesn't have him anymore either!<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

<BR>Definitely hard to get rid of a single OW. I'd have better luck chiseling barnacles off the Titanic.>>>><P>Lol. I felt the same way! I thought she would never go away. It finally took both my H and I being REALLY mean to her and me threatening to call the police before she crawled back into her hole.<P>>>I suppose it's because they have the least to lose of all the types of OP.>>><P>xOW had nothing to lose at all and everything to gain. She wanted a man with a good job who could support her in the lifestyle she wished to become accustomed to and she wanted a Daddy for her child. She saw my H as her winning lottery ticket. So why would she let go easily? She didn't have a thing to lose by trying to hang on. <P>>> I know this sounds deranged, but I wish that H's XOW would have been married. I think she a) would have gone away quicker, and b) I'd have another BS to confide in who was going through the same thing I was ...>>><P>I've thought the same thing before BD. But then again, in my H's case if she had been married I think my H would have drawn the line. He was in life crisis, conflict avoidance mode big time. He didn't want complications. He wanted a carefree party girl to go out drinking with and she made it very clear that is what she was. Throwing a husband into the mix would have made it much too much of a pain in the [censored] for him.<P>belld[/B][/QUOTE]<P>