This is a response to NSR / Jim's May 19, 2001 post at <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/009016.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/009016.html</A> <P>Hello again, Jim!<P>"So now I CAN "be" myself, including engaging in creative pursuits, if I'm doing it for my spouse?" Being oneself isn't a static state of "being"... but a progression of a journey to conversion of hope, charity and faith...<P>I think I really am too much of a literalist, because sentences like “being oneself is a progression of a journey to conversion of hope, charity and faith” leave me wrinkling my brow in confusion. Ok, let me try to parse this. “Being is a progressive journey” I’m ok with. But “to conversion of hope charity & faith?” Conversion of those things to what? My best guess: “Becoming is a progressive journey toward a life exemplifying hope, charity and faith?” Is that it? Sorry to be so thick! This is your opinion of the purpose of our life?<BR>******************************************************<P>To engage in creative pursuits... by doing for your spouse... is an act of doing for one greater than "self"... for in the end... we have gained nothing but through relationships with man and God... since all our built up earthly wealth will not be taken with us to our journey's end. <P>I think we have a difference of opinion here. If you’re stating that “doing” for your spouse is (inherently or not) of greater value than “doing” for yourself, I must disagree. As I tried to state in my previous post, I can and do “gain” an enormous amount by “doing” for myself, whether it is an hour horseback riding alone while enjoying a sunny spring afternoon or whether it is by self-reflection, analysis of my strengths and weaknesses, pondering my values/beliefs, reading, contemplating my personal goals, etc. My spouse, my equal, my life-partner, also gains through my solitary pursuits, although I am not pursuing those pursuits FOR my spouse. My relationships with God or man are not an issue (to me) here.<P>Are you just extending the “it’s better to give than to receive” thing? If so, to me that is different than doing for spouse is “better” than doing for self. Maybe I’m just uncomfortable with value judgements presented as blanket truths. Wait - if you are stating that my spouse is “greater” than I am, how is this so? The very idea of partners brings me to the idea of equality... However, one of my own ideas is that in a fully “actualized” relationship, each partner views the fulfilment of the other partner as a more precious and more important priority to them than their own fulfilment.<P>******************************************************<BR>we have gained nothing but through relationships with man and God since all our built up earthly wealth will not be taken with us to our journey's end...<P>I’m sorry, maybe I should stop this as I just don’t get it! Reversing the sentence, “Since all our built up earthly wealth will not be taken with us to our journey's end, we have gained nothing but through relationships with man and God. Since you can’t take material things with you, real gain is only through relationships with other people and with God? Nope, I don’t see it, Jim. A pleasant walk through a forest preserve can just be a pleasant walk through a forest preserve - without another person, without spirituality / contemplation of God, etc. The “gain” can simply be the benefit of fresh air and exercise and sun on my mood and health... That experience also has nothing to do with “earthly wealth”.<P>Maybe I’m having a problem is that I feel you’re presenting your personal opinions or personal beliefs as global truths, or that your thoughts seem incomplete... Gosh, please tell me if I seem too critical here, but it is quite interesting for me to try to figure out WHAT I am trying to say to you!<P>******************************************************<BR>Rule 1; Love God with your whole heart and soul and being... (by doing for your spouse you acknowledge acceptance of HIS will)<BR>Rule 2; Love your neighbor as yourself... (no one being closer to being your neighbor than your spouse) There is nothing more Christ-like than doing for your spouse! <P>Ok, once again here, you’re presenting your opinions and beliefs (tho’ I’m certainly not going to object to the Commandments!) as global truths. Where do you get the idea for the last sentence? If true, all monks should then get married and Mother Theresa was on the wrong track? (Sorry, I’m feeling my oats here!) But really, why do you feel that nothing is more Christ-like than doing for your spouse?<P>******************************************************<BR>Ok, thank God, we agree on the balanced, separate interests thing. That makes one! <BR>I like the Chesterton quote...<P>******************************************************<BR>Ok, I think we’re on the same page with the anger thing too. When contemplating wrath, or unproductive ... self-indulgent... especially when "held onto" for long periods of time... as in those unrepentant of their own faults anger, yep, those are “mistakes”! <P>I think I am over-sensitive to any tendency to turn every little weakness or negative thought or emotion into something damnable /sinful. I know that I have seen many relationships and individuals flounder, remain static without needs being met as a result of too many years of just pretending everything is ok, keeping it pleasant at all costs, because of some ingrained idea that addressing a weakness, mistake or other “negative” is somehow bad, unacceptable. You know all those silent households out there. I think I see this tendency more in my grandparents’ and parents’ generations more than in the current crop of, say, 30 to 60 year olds. That’s probably why I resist labeling common emotions like simple anger (not wrath!) as a sin... <P>In my opinion, if we were perfect we wouldn’t be here, so we should embrace our weaknesses, our mistakes, yes, our sins, rather then sublimating them, ignoring them, acting them out elsewhere because we fear them so. To me (yes, I’m aware this might seem weird) one of my main goals in life is to be without all fear. Of anything. And by embracing all truths (e.g., I was REALLY pissed at my spouse last night, or I’m aging, poor, have a huge character fault, whatever) rather than fearing them, fearing addressing them or what they may really mean or the consequences of sharing same with my spouse (or whomever), I feel that life is greatly simplified, I can then take action to remedy the situation faster, and personal growth is accelerated. (Gosh, is this at all understandable?)<P>******************************************************<BR>'dialoging' ... The concept of empathy I was trying to relate is not a fact based understanding... but more of an unconditional acceptance of "feelings"... ... The definition of empathy I was using is "the attribution of one's own feelings to an object"... in the case the object of "your spouses concern." <P>Jim, I continue to respectfully disagree! Before I had known anyone who had died, when I went to a wake, I expressed sympathy to the bereaved, because while I didn’t really understand what they were going through, I was sorry they were in pain, and simply shared that pain without understanding it. Now that I’ve known people who have died, I certainly understand what a harrowing experience it can be and understand the spectrum of emotions attendant to such an experience. Now when I go to a wake, I express empathy, because I do understand what the bereaved are going through. <P>Maybe this is just semantics. Your definition with my paraphrasing: “the attribution of my feelings to my spouse’s concern.” Applying my feelings to my spouse’s concern unconditionally, without understanding, is clearly (to me) sympathy, not empathy. Maybe I just need a new dictionary or to attend one of those workshops! On a slightly different point, I often consider how something a spouse does can be acceptable but not understandable or understandable without being acceptable...<P>******************************************************<BR>By "secular narcissism"... (not an expression used regularly)...I mean the societal acceptance (especially in today's world/media) that "everything is OK" when looking at one's own happiness... when one (individually) perceive they are not harming anyone else (especially "spiritually").<P>I think that you might want to define the above as “moral relativism”. (e.g., if it feels good, do it! It makes ME happy!) I would think secular narcissism would be more of an excessive admiration for material, temporal concerns rather than spiritual concerns. It gets tricky comparing the terms because some attempt to achieve self-actualization through unhealthy moral relativism (general selfishness) at the expense of the spiritual AND through excessive materialism (and related surface concerns) at the expense of the spiritual.<P>******************************************************<BR>For example... my xW... 3 weeks after D-day... sat my 3 kids down [ages 7, 9 and 17 at the time] and said... "I know mommy is committing adultery... but sometimes we have do things like this... so mommy can be a better mother".(Isn't this the message of soap operas?) I know you think is extreme (it is factual... I have it in writing)... but even milder examples like this are proof that 'relativism' of truth/sin/right/wrong, encouraged by a secularizing media, is pressing the 'validity' of narcissistic behavior! Isn't this all to evident in our Wss?<P>Not to get too personal, but is your ex-W from the shallow end of the gene pool, chemically enhanced or just wildly immature and self-absorbed? Her comment is incredible, for what it says, for what it doesn’t say, and for what you can read between the lines. My heartfelt condolences to you for having to face such a situation, such a “person”... <P>Ok, to rephrase you once again, I get: “The media encourages people to place an emphasis on self-absorbed, selfish, materialistic behavior by presenting the public with issues that are mostly non-spiritual and temporal, and by endorsing moral relativism.” Is that about it? If so, a few thoughts:<P><BR>I think your comment is extreme, is hyperbole. If you want to read or watch spiritual or religion related stuff, the newspapers, books and websites are there, the cable channels are there. And yes, even mainstream media does cover religious and spiritual matters - I read it! For those that don’t want to, they have that choice. <P>The reason that mainstream newspapers and TV aren’t packed chock-full of religious and spiritual related matters is simply because it doesn’t sell to the greatest percentage of the audience, and both make their money off advertisers who largely only care about buying time or space where there is the greatest audience. Jim, that isn’t inherently bad, that’s just the way it is. Most think having the freedom of such choices is one of the main reasons that the U.S. is considered the greatest country in the world. <P>I really doubt you would like to live in a non-secular country where your wife could be dragged from a car and beaten because a bit of her hair strayed outside of her head covering, or where teachers are (legally!) murdered by their students on the spot for mentioning a historical truth (this is a recent story - the “blasphemous” fact was that circumcision wasn’t practiced in a certain country before the 16th century). <P>ALL extremism is bad, Jim, even moralistic/religious extremism. Would you want religious or spiritual messages with which you didn’t agree forced down your throat? E.g., every religious group throughout history seems to think they are the one “true” faith. Come on!<P>There is no “message” in soap operas any more than there is a “message” in Jerry Springer-like shows. It is pulp and pap and brain candy - do you know that the humor of sitcoms is set at a fifth grade level? If it offends you, just watch something else! Rather than concentrate on being (justly) offended, why not concentrate on how lucky you are to have 300 digital cable channels rather than one state-run propaganda-filled channel?<P>Adultery has been documented throughout history from the most ancient culture onward, Jim. No, the ancient Greco-Romans and Egyptians weren’t bombarded with advertisements, Jerry Springer, etc., but they sure had lots of prostitution, adultery, homosexuality, wife-swapping, rape, murder etc. Humans have always had their own forms of pulpy, Jerry Springer stuff AND high-minded educational stuff available regardless of the year (unless it was a very restrictive society), just as humans have always had weaknesses and character flaws. Every generation seems to think the latest developments are the signs of the fall of civilization, whether it was birth control in the 1960's or Elvis gyrating in the 1950's or women’s ankles being shown in 1900, or the slaves being freed in the 1860's... <P>I’m going on too long here, I know. <P>Rather than keep saying “secular narcissism” why can’t you just say selfishness? I certainly know of many selfish non-secular people! Further, I think I’m tired of complex new terms judgementally thrown around like some sort of psychological diagnosis. The phrase also smacks of the Al-Anon victimization sort of stuff.... Isn’t “selfish” enough?<P>******************************************************<BR>Isn't this all too evident in our WSs?<P>Jim, I feel your judgmental words may be showing a lot of unresolved hurt and resentment toward your exW... I have found that forgiveness is easier the more I accept how we all have our weaknesses, and the more I age I see how I have some degree of almost all weaknesses that I formerly damned in others. I really don’t think all is black and white, the older I get more is grey. No, that is not the same as the type of moral relativism we are bemoaning, but simply an observation that life is complicated. <P>For example, I think I’ve come to terms with a lot of behavior, etc. that is understandable but not acceptable... If a woman hasn’t shown her husband affection or given him SF in 15 years, despite his best efforts at filling her LB, EN, etc., yet his value system/cultural background/religious beliefs, etc. puts a greater emphasis on his family stability for the (supposed!) sake of young children’s welfare than his complete happiness, would I judge him for having an OW to gain some quotient of affection, admiration, SF, etc. until the kids are out of the nest? No. (Especially if he told his wife he was going to get an OW, as I know actually occurred in one continuing marriage I know of!) Even though understandable but not acceptable. But then, the older I get the less I judge other’s behavior at all. Judge not lest...<P>Gobyfish

<B>gobyfish</B>,<P>I got back late tonight...<BR>...I'd like to formulate some responses....<BR>...and over the next few days... I will.<P>Please do realize...<BR>...these ideas do represent <B>my</B> personal views...<BR>...and of course, everyone has different perspectives.<P>OK... a little bit at a time... and again... this is my individual perspective.<P>****************************************************************<P>It's not just "Being (that) is a progressive journey"...<BR>...but "being (in self's relationship with God that) is a progressive journey"...<BR>...understanding the self's relationship with God... cannot be without a relationship to spouse. I say this because my discussion was really intended to focus on "marital relationships".<P><B>"to conversion of hope charity & faith"</B>... is just that... a conversion moving one's self toward the <I>practice</I> of virtue. I did not mean that we need to convert from virtue to "some thing". Again quoting St. Gregory... "the goal of a virtuous life is to become like God" (please let me add... "not <B>a</B> God"). And... <A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=5&startv=48&endv=48&version=rsv" TARGET=_blank>Matthew 5:48</A> "You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." The "theological virtues" (faith, hope and charity) are the foundation of all moral activity.<P>Again... yes... this is <B>my</B> opinion...<P>****************************************************************<P>"If you’re stating that “doing” for your spouse is (inherently or not) of greater value than “doing” for yourself, I must disagree."...<P>Here... I am not talking about the measuring of "value" of "doing for self" vs. "doing for spouse". I do not dispute such measure of value to pursue the gifts God has given each individual... these are precious gifts... and should not be squandered! These gifts are in most cases gifts that are significantly different than those given our spouses.<P>However... your statement...<BR>"My relationships with God or man are not an issue (to me) here."...<BR>Is exactly the opposite of where I was coming from in my post!<BR>"My relationship with God"... <B>must come first</B>!<BR>It is in <B>that</B> relationship... that tells me... accept HIS will... in loving your spouse.<P>"Wait - if you are stating that my spouse is “greater” than I am, how is this so?"...<BR>...I am absolutely <B>not</B> saying this!<P>"each partner views the fulfillment of the other partner as a more precious and more important priority to them than their own fulfillment"...<BR>...<B>is</B> what I am saying(agreeing with you)!<BR>...BTW... equality, I consider as a separate issue.<P>Again... yes... this is <B>my</B> opinion...<P>****************************************************************<P>The "gain" of fresh air, exercise, sunning, good mood... <B>is</B> an "earthly gain"...<BR>...and it is a good "gain" (so the word "nothing" in this sense <B>is</B> incorrect.)<BR>The "gain" I was thinking of was the gain of much more tremendous value...<BR>...the following of a <B>virtuous</B> life here on earth...<A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=25&startv=34&endv=35&version=rsv" TARGET=_blank>[Matthew 25:34-35</A><P>Again... yes... this is not just <B>my</B> opinion... but my personal belief!<BR>So <B>no</B> you're not being critical... it's just me expressimg my beliefs.<P>****************************************************************<P>"There is nothing more Christ-like than doing for your spouse!"...<BR>...was again meant... in the context of a 'marital relationship'.<P>For those who choose a celibate life-style or single life-style, this most certainly does not apply. Again in my writings, I'm focusing on married people.<P>Now where is there the analogy to being Christ-like...<BR>Christ sacrificed <B>all</B> for his bride... the church! <A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Eph&chapter=5&startv=25&endv=26&version=rsv" TARGET=_blank>Ephesians 5:25-26</A> & <A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=15&startv=13&endv=13&version=rsv" TARGET=_blank>John 15:13</A><P>****************************************************************<P>I too, like many quotes of G. K. Chesterton! <P>****************************************************************<P>I too think we're pretty close on the idea of "anger"... <BR>And I do agree with you... simple anger is not a sin.<P>I'm not sure about "embracing" our weaknesses...<BR>...I'd prefer to "recognize" and then work on eliminating the weaknesses<BR>...don't sublimate<BR>...don't ignore<BR>...eliminate.<P>Although... "life is to be without all fear"... scares me.<BR>"Fear" is good... it defines boundaries... it aids in analysis of moral decisions... it is a natural indicator of when we are straying.<BR>And yet I also consider 'fear' as something to be contrasted to, even though in juxtaposition with... "wonder and awe" in the gifts of the Lord.<P>***********************************************************************<P>About the definition of "empathy"...<BR>(I'm using the 2nd definition from "The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition")...<BR>...when I say... "The attribution of one's own feelings to an object."<P>I didn't want to use "sympathy"...<BR>...because it often conjures up the idea of "harmonious agreement or accord"...<BR>...and that is not what I wanted to convey...<P>And to my understanding... "dialoging" (ala MEW or Retrouvaille) is not intended to bring about a form of "harmonious agreement or accord".<P>You could be right here... Maybe this is just semantics! <P>****************************************************************<P>...more later on.<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited May 21, 2001).]

Wow - more good stuff from you - thank you Jim! I too will add further thoughts shortly...<P>gobyfish

...continued... <P>****************************************************************<P>I would think <B>secular narcissism</B> would be more of "<B>an excessive admiration for material, temporal concerns rather than spiritual concerns.</B>"...<BR>...I like and agree with the way you phrase it!<P>“moral relativism”... is a bit too mild and general. <P>**************************************************************<P>Yeah... I was blown away by the "...so mommy can be a better mother..." event. This is when "the fog" rules all sense of rational thinking.<P>**************************************************************<P>my comment is extreme, is hyperbole...<BR>...I beg to disagree.<P>I don't argue that media exists... nor that it will always exist...<BR>...nor that "religious programming" is a choice too...<BR>...nor that the market place wants to satisfy advertisers...<BR>...nor that money drives that market place.<P>But when morality, as written in our hearts is thrown out... and ridiculed... and in some cases suppressed with slogans...<BR>...it threatens the continuance of this society...<BR>...and we will fall from within... not from causes outside of us.<P>We are continually being hammered by the bulk of the media...<BR>...to the point where our spiritual senses are dulled.<P>"Most think having the freedom of such choices is one of the main reasons that the U.S. is considered the greatest country in the world."...<BR>...I think...(again this is <B>me</B> thinking... in my minority...)...<BR>...what makes this country as <B>possibly</B> great as it was/is... <BR>...is in making appropriate choices... offered to it...<BR>...when we start ignoring... disregarding... and deliberately violating the laws written in our hearts...<BR>...we will start losing our greatness...<BR>...and replace it with the abomination of arrogance... and yes... secular narcissism.<P>Haven't we gotten to the point where we allow <B>murder</B>?...<BR>...and call it pro-choice?<P>Where the term "cranial decompression"... during "partial birth abortions"... <BR>...and other euphemisms (to suck out the brain)... make all of this... so palatable to our senses...<P>Is any of this really "hyperbole"?<P>------------------------------------------------<P>It's not that I want to live in a secular (nor non-secular) society...<BR>...just one that understands some basic (common) morals (written on the heart.)<P>I agree with you... "ALL extremism is bad"...<BR>...and "freedom of religion" is one of the reasons that...<BR>..."the U.S. is considered the greatest country in the world!"<P>I applaud the religious group that encourages countries/governments to allow each person the practice of his/her own faith...<BR>...even if that faith is not conforming to the doctrine of "that" religious group!<BR>...but has to clarity to see that the moral underpinnings (of moral law) should not be thrown out!<P>----------------------------------------------------<P>"There is no “message” in soap operas..."...<BR>Yes... there are messages... and they are being repetitively washed over and over and over the minds of the viewers...<BR>...yes... on soap operas...<BR>...yes... on Springer...<BR>...yes... on Pleasure Island...<P>I had to sit on a Bus Trip where the movie "Bridges of Madison County" was playing... (no chance to turn it off, or shut the volume off)...<BR>...same message...<BR>Ask any "Faithful Spouse(FS) (Betrayed Spouse-BS)"... what they think of <B>this</B> movie...<BR>...and after they finish hurling for a few minutes...<BR>...they'll tell you where this media is on the scale of "morality"!<P>Yes, I am thankful for certain (few) channels that have management who will not be bought by advertisers wished to...<BR>temp... tease... titillate...<P>I know it is my responsibility to my children to guard them, discuss with them, and lead them in understand of how to develop a viewing pattern that is morally responsible.<P>I feel for those families...<BR>...where parents have so much less control...<BR>...single parents...<BR>...families where kids are forced into day care...<BR>......or after-hour programs.<P>--------------------------------------------------------<P>Just because "adultery" has been <B>documented throughout history</B>...<BR><B>DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT</B>!<P>In no time in history...<BR>...has the <I>family been under attack</I> (adultery and even more so divorce!) as it is now (in the US)...<BR>...if you think of another... (in some other time)... let me know...<BR>...then let me know how long that society had survived!<P>Leaving it as just simple "selfishness"...<BR>...is missing the point of "selfishness"... resulting in encouraged immorality!<P>*******************************************************<P>I know I've been hurt by my wife...<BR>...but I do make a conscience effort to continually forgive her...<BR>...(not for past offenses... but for the continually new ones...<BR>......her describing to my stepson(living with me) about her being raped by her first xH<BR>......her name calling my mother (kids grandmother)<BR>......etc.)<P>But forgetting (the ability to not forget)...<BR>...makes the forgiveness harder each time.<BR>...and so... I make that conscious decision to forgive her... each and every time!<P>Yes "life is complicated"...<BR>...but we shouldn't use that as an excuse to think...<BR>..."moral relativism"... therefore... has to be OK! (much less justified)<P>------------------------------------------------------<P>"If a woman hasn’t shown her husband ...<BR>...would I judge <B>him</B> for having an OW to gain some quotient of affection"...<P>I tend to think... we shouldn't judge the person...<BR>...but <B>DO</B> judge the action...<BR>(it's part of the discernment process)<P>Some actions, by their intrinsic nature... are wrong...<A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Rom&chapter=13&startv=8&endv=9&version=rsv" TARGET=_blank>(Romans 13:8-9)</A><P>-------------------------------------------------------<P>Love the sinner... hate the sin.<BR>...protect the young / the uninformed from falling away! <A HREF="http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Mat&chapter=18&startv=6&endv=6&version=rsv" TARGET=_blank>(Matthew 18:6)</A><P>********************************************************<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited May 21, 2001).]

This is EXCELLENT! Just lurking in your thread.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Dear NSR and (our welcome lurker) Nyneve - <P>One small thought before bed: <P>I was thinking that I actually feel lucky to live in a country with so many options, with so much freedom, with so many challenges to remaining grounded in reality, in what really matters in life, to the values I attempt to personify in my life.<P>IMHO, that's related to why ignorance is bliss. If people just keep walking the well-worn path of others (whether that is their parents, their neighbors, or whomever) without challenging themselves to constantly form and reaffirm and reject their beliefs, behavior patterns, etc. throughout their lives, how is that a positive thing? <P>Meaning, if people believe in something or in a certain way of living simply because they've never considered the options, never searched their own hearts and minds for what's really in there, to me that isn't an approach to life - it's just an easy way out. Not living, just existing. But then, maybe I just put a higher value on self-knowledge than most.<P>I have been astounded at how defensive certain people I know get when a facet of a religion, a philosophy, a law, a public policy, etc. that is foreign to them is mentioned. They prefer to reject the thought or idea out of hand, sometimes quite forcefully, without even understanding what it is they are rejecting. <P>It seems to be that such a strong reaction is really just their fear that they might hear something that may successfully challenge their (nice, calm, ignorance-filled) status-quo and make them want to actually change something about their lives, and that would just be too scary...<P>I don't mean to sound sarcastic or dismissive of such seemingly-complacent types. I'm fully aware that the complexities of everyday life usually leave little time for challenging soul-searching.<P>gobyfish <P>PS - Was this a complex ad for Jerry Springer? Uh, oh!

Hi <B>gobyfish</B>...<P>...just got back myself... <P>...a few thoughts... in response...<P><B>"...I was thinking that I actually feel lucky to live in a country with so many options, with so much freedom..."</B><BR>With freedom comes responsibility... comes stewardship...<BR>...it would be most pleasing to live in a society that offered such political, social and economic freedom...<BR>...and even more so... offering religious freedom to enable free will...<P><B>"...with so many challenges to remaining grounded in reality, in what really matters in life..."</B><BR>To claim "(we know) what really matter in life"... based on our own individual "personified values... without the guidance of that natural law written in our hearts... becomes the height of arrogrance and pride.<P>-----------------------------------------------------------<BR>(thoughts and links on <B>natural law</B>)...<BR><A HREF="http://www.unification.net/ws/intch2.htm" TARGET=_blank>Divine Law, Truth, and Cosmic Principle</A> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Regardless of these differences, all these religious viewpoints share a respect for the Law which human beings violate at their peril. The universe is fundamentally moral, an expression of the workings of a divine Principle or natural law in both the realms of nature and of human affairs. Hence human morality is not relative, not explicable as the result of social and cultural conditioning alone. Morality and ethics are rooted in the way things are (ontology); they are as enduring as the laws of physics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The Decalogue and the natural law <P>*** The Ten Commandments belong to God's revelation. At the same time they teach us the true humanity of man. They bring to light the essential duties, and therefore, indirectly, the fundamental rights inherent in the nature of the human person. The Decalogue contains a privileged expression of the natural law: <P><BR>From the beginning, God had implanted in the heart of man the precepts of the natural law. Then he was content to remind him of them. This was the Decalogue.<P>*** The commandments of the Decalogue, although accessible to reason alone, have been revealed. To attain a complete and certain understanding of the requirements of the natural law, sinful humanity needed this revelation: <P><BR>A full explanation of the commandments of the Decalogue became necessary in the state of sin because the light of reason was obscured and the will had gone astray.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Bonaventure, held that all the commandments are a part of the natural law and are therefore knowable to all thinking people...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><A HREF="http://www.jurisdictionary.com/Essays/natural_law.htm" TARGET=_blank>The Search for Natural Law</A><P><A HREF="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9905/reviews/oakes.html" TARGET=_blank>Natural Law in Judaism.</A><P><A HREF="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09076a.htm" TARGET=_blank>Natural Law</A><P><A HREF="http://eutopia.cua.edu/article.cfm?ID=60&Page=1" TARGET=_blank>The Catholic Natural Law Tradition</A><P><A HREF="http://www.discovery.org/lewis/natlaw.html" TARGET=_blank>The Natural Law in Literature and Life</A><P><A HREF="http://www.servtech.com/~grugyn/bk2b-4wl.htm" TARGET=_blank>Axiom II: It is a general and necessary law of nature to rule wherever one can.</A><P><A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/arehab/ahmed/contemp.html" TARGET=_blank>CONTEMPLATION</A><P><A HREF="http://www.jps.net/prbc/CalvinontheNaturalLaw.htm" TARGET=_blank>CALVIN ON THE NATURAL LAW AND THE TEN COMMANDMENTS</A><P><A HREF="http://www.cfpeople.org/FrRay/3Lent00b.htm" TARGET=_blank>The Ten Commandments and the Natural Law</A><P><A HREF="http://www.sfspirit.com/articles/9802/Article4.htm" TARGET=_blank>A Metaphor About Natural Law</A><P><A HREF="http://pub10.ezboard.com/fthegoodthebadandtheugly49488referencelibrary.showMessage?topicID=9.topic" TARGET=_blank>The Ten Commandments</A><P>-----------------------------------------------------------<P><B>"...IMHO, that's related to why ignorance is bliss..."</B><BR>I agree ignoance may be bliss. But to reject the "path of others"(well-worn or not)... is again an arrogant attitude... one that claims that those who preceeded us... were more ignorant than we are???... Is that always the case???<BR>If ignorance is bliss... what can be said about arrogance???<P><B>...without challenging themselves to constantly form and reaffirm and reject their beliefs, behavior patterns, etc. throughout their lives, how is that a positive thing?</B><BR>Again, I agree here...<BR>Do challenge your beliefs!... if and when they conflict with the "natural law"... <B>Absolutely</B> reject that erroneous belief!<BR>Those beliefs that are in acord with the natural law... by all means... <B>...constantly form and reaffirm</B>... them!<P><BR><B>...consider(ing) the options...</B>...<BR>...is a beautiful thing...<BR>"Considering the boundaries of the natual law... is equally as beautiful"... and using them as a guide to conscience <B>IS</B>... "what's really in there"... (heart and soul)<BR>Is that an easy way out... (if it were... why is there so much infidelity(by WSs on the MB site?)<P><B>...put(ting) a higher value on self-knowledge...</B><BR>...isn't wrong in the least (I've had many discussions with <B>TheStudent</B> on this)...<BR>...when we put self-knowledge ahead of God... or putting others down becuase of the way they humble themselves in front of God...<BR>...that's when our pridefullnesss... leads to superior arrogance... to us becoming our own god.<P><B>...fact of a religion, a philosophy, a law, a public policy, etc. that is foreign to them is mentioned. They prefer to reject the thought or idea out of hand...</B><BR>...When is it proper to reject "x,y,z out of hand"?...<BR>...When it violates the natural law...<BR>......is it alright to kill?<BR>......is it alright to steal?<BR>......is it alright to lie?<BR>......is it alright to commit adultery? (ask anyone on this forum...)<BR>......is it alright to be covetous... of spouse... possesions unduely?<BR>......is it alright to lose love of parents/family?<P>or is it OK to...<BR>......kill?... maybe if it's a partial birth abortion... right?<BR>......steal?... maybe if you're not caught... right?<BR>......lie?... maybe for a better "ends"... right?<BR>......commit adultery? (again...ask anyone on this forum?)<BR>......lose love of parents/family?... only when it's time to consider euthanasia... right?<P>I do agree... don't act without understanding what it is they are rejecting!!!<P>I guess some can consider the natural law... a bit too nice...<BR>I guess some can consider the natural law... a bit too calm...<BR>I guess some can consider the natural law... a bit too ignorance filled...<BR>I guess some can consider the natural law... a bit too status-quo...<P>Change is good... when you take a journey... that isn't the worn path...<BR>...but the harder path!... and yes... it will be scary.<P>Life is complex...<BR>...a challenging soul-searching journey...<BR>...to simply except "societal norms"... that oppose the "natural norm"...<BR>...unfortunately... <B>is too easy</B>!<P>I close with part of <B>Psalm 119</B>...<BR>Blessed are they whose ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the LORD. <BR>Blessed are they who keep his statutes and seek him with all their heart.<BR>They do nothing wrong; they walk in his ways.<BR>You have laid down precepts that are to be fully obeyed.<BR>Oh, that my ways were steadfast in obeying your decrees!<BR>Then I would not be put to shame when I consider all your commands.<BR>I will praise you with an upright heart as I learn your righteous laws.<BR>I will obey your decrees; <P>-----------------------------------------------<P>Stand-up...<BR>Jerry... sit-down.<P> <P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited May 29, 2001).]