I was reading the Ann Lander's thread (the OW's letter made me ill by the way) and someone mentioned something about how the WS like to do things for the OP because he/she doesn't have to. I think that is such a big part of the whole fantasy. I was reading something recently about an interesting study. It turns out that if you do good deeds (volunteering, charity work type things) to help strangers it raises your immune system. But if you do things such as caring for an elderly parent it drastically lowers your immune system. If you go and read to the patients at a nursing home you get to pat yourself on the back for doing a good deed that you didn't have to do. The same with affairs. <BR>I think that is why so many of our spouses (mostly men in this case) get into the "knight in shining armor" role. The MP can throw the OP a tiny crumb and the OP eagerly snatches it up because the MP didn't "have to" do it. The MP can then bask in the glow of admiration for his good deed. In real life it is kind of difficult to always to throw your arms around your H and praise him for taking out the garbage. But when you are an OP with limited time with the MP there aren't all of those pesky real life details (kids, bills, chores) to interfere.<P>As an example - Yesterday H was working outside, cutting the grass etc. At our house he has to do yard work (we both have certain chores that we do). It's not an option or a good deed. In the course of doing his yardwork he comes in and out of the house, tracking dirt all over the place (which I will have to clean up). The fact that he is making a big mess for me is somewhat irritating but I always make sure to tell him how nice the grass looks etc (more on that later). If I were an OW and he stole a whole afternoon away to spend with me I would probably feel a lot different about him cutting my grass. I'm sure I'd be swooning over how sweet and wonderful he was to cut my grass for me. The fact that he tracked dirt all over the house (whcich he probably wouldn't do since it would be best behavior situation) would be cute. Cleaning it up would be kind of like playing house. "Oh look, it's just like we're a real couple."<P>One thing I learned from my H's affair is that he always concealed from me how fragile his ego is and that he has an overwhelming need for praise (far more than most people require). So now I am aware of this and I do make a conscious effort to always compliment him and thank him for everything he does, even when it is something he has to do anyway. His own sister told me that if she had to "coddle" her H like I do mine she would pull her hair out. I don't really think of it like that though. In return I also get a lot more compliments which is nice. Since the A and our vastly improved communication H has realized and admitted that he is very "high maintenance" and definitely more of a "taker" in a relationship. But now he also realizes that real life is not a fairy tale, people have problems and he can't sit on a throne and be idolized all day. Sometimes (often) real life concerns have to take precedence. I now know what his needs are and how to better meet them. We both have learned that there is lots of give and take and lots of compromise in a long term relationship. It will never be all hearts and roses. It sounds to me like the OW in the Ann Landers letter has no grasp of that. I hope she can continue to be totally perfect or she is in for a big fall.

I think you are right on the mark.I an A you have the newness and a clean slate so to speak,To do good with no black marks on your record.You feel good about yourself and your OP which is better than dealing with problems.The great escape,but it's still just make belive. NTK

fairydust,<P>Another point often missed by people is that if a WS were to cut the OW's grass, he would be cutting "her" grass. When he is cutting "your" grass, he is really cutting "HIS OWN" grass. He is not going "you" a favor, he is doing his own home maintenance. Thus it is not a good deed. So of course it does not feel as good.<P>Yes the "knight in shining armor" role is very seductive to men. And many women are more then willing to fawn all over a man who takes that role in her life. Even if he is married and neglecting his family to do so. <P>Z

This is a really good comment--you are a smart lady.<P>Yes, 'coddle' is an appropriate word. I feel that I must do this or loose him.<P>It was interesting to me when Miss Kitty asked my husband if *I* pampered him the way she did. It really made me mad, because, yes, I sure tried, however, it was hard to pamper him 24/7 when there was a baby to care for and bills to pay and a house to clean. She had 48 fun-filled hours a week to pamper him--all she had to do was run away from her husband and meet mine in a hotel room.<P>And gosh, the baby and the house and the bills were his, too, not just mine. Sorry if real life is such a drudgery. I actually kind of like it. Nothing feels sweeter to me than tickling my little guy or putting a puzzle together with him. Or sitting down to write out checks to put into the mailbox and having a good feeling that you owe nothing to anybody--for a few weeks. Or getting all of the laundry and dishes done and having a few minutes to relax and cuddle with the one I love. "Real life" is great, to me. <P>However, to someone who has a hard time dealing with crisis and responsibility and ocasional boredom, yeah, I can see where he would need to be coddled. He would need to grow up.<P>Fairy dust, I will use your post as an example of what I should be doing. It has been hard getting back on track after our long separation. Now I am the one who feels the need to be pampered.

<P><<<<Another point often missed by people is that if a WS were to cut the OW's grass, he would be cutting "her" grass. When he is cutting "your" grass, he is really cutting "HIS OWN" grass. He is not going "you" a favor, he is doing his own home maintenance. Thus it is not a good deed. So of course it does not feel as good.>>>><P>You got it Zorweb. My H was a very major "knight" to the OW. When he first left he was staying with a fictional male friend, eventually he moved to a fictional empty apartment. He came over one day to get some tools including the drain snake. His pretend male friend apparently had a hair clog in his drain and also needed his toilet fixed. I even commented on how his "friend" seemed rather helpless for a 35 year old man. Meanwhile he was ignoring any maintenance around here. We had a basement flood and he let me deal with it by myself. It was much more gratifying I'm sure to have the OW jumping up and down over how manly he was for unclogging her drain lol. It would not have been nearly as fun to clean up his own flooded basement. Dealing with his own problems would have just added to his depression. Fixing someone else's problems made him feel good.

Last week, I posted this in "ANOTHER ANN LANDERS".<P>Long ago, I wrote my wife a letter, this is what I wrote: (Short Version)<P>"Dear *******,<P>I love you very much. If you don't feel that you love and desire me as I feel about you, I love you enough to let you go.<P>I just want real love in a marriage produces passion, fun, romantic and kind to each other. I want my marriage to happy with full of romance, affections and have a wonderful passionate affair. I want you to be part of my life and enjoy your time with me.<P>I am very aware that you don't want to make love and I have felt that you feel obligated to have sex with me. I can tell the way you kiss me and I just don't feel that wants and desires in your kisses. You know how many times I know you want to get the intercourse "over with". Its a shame because it makes me feel insecured and unhappy to know that you don't love me romantically and sexually. I just don't feel your passion and aggressiveness sexually. I am sure you remember how many times you don't want to shut off the tv and have a romantic evening together. And how many times you fell asleep on me while I tried to have a romantic evening. Its just that I feel you don't love and desire me anymore. <P>Love, *******"<P>I only live in this life once and it is getting harder for me to enjoy life as long as I live like this. My life is stressful enough. I work 2 jobs and I get involved with my kids activities as much as I can. I do my share of chores when I have time (I do most of the grocery shopping, yard work and do my share of the housework) but it is hard to because I work 60 to 70 hours a week. I need time for "myself" when I have little free time. Many times I am afraid to open up emotionally and sexually with my wife because I am afraid of getting hurt. I know she tries but I just feel that she don't feel the same way as I feel. <P>Its a shame, my wife is always preoccupied with her own world and hardly make herself time for quality romantic get together. This "Knights in Shining Armor" is not what I need or desire. All I desire is to feel love and wanted. I want her to put me first in her life emotionally, romantically and sexually. I don't want or need to be pampered. My wife felt that sex is a duty. I told her if she felt like its a duty, then I will stop giving her affections (which I have never felt a duty to give her affections). Now, knowing how my wife feels about me romantically & sexually... I am not focusing on her romantically and sexually any longer. I am still married to her and now she is fighting for our marriage. She misses the attention that I used to give her. Emotionally, I gave up and at least she knows where I stand. I will always be home. I will continue to do my duty as a husband and father to take care of things needed. I just won't get myself emotionally hurt any longer.<P>I love sex but if my wife feels sex is a duty. I don't want sex. If she don't desire me sexually, then I don't want to have sex with her. Nowadays, I hardly have sex with her anymore. <P>What gives a good ego booster for a man emotionally? He wanted to feel desired and wanted and loved. I am sure women felt the same way.<BR>

As I said--in part--in the other thread (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008992-7.html):<P>"I will give the OW the benefit of the doubt, and that her motivation was to serve as a wakeup call. I find the response a bit weak, however. The disapproval of the conduct was not stated forcefully enough, and the "old world" mindset of "please your man if you want to keep him" falls woefully short of what Dr. Harley has shown us. Rather than rale at Ann for being ignorant, write a letter and educate her!"<P>On the "Knight in Shining Armor" Syndrome (hmm, I do wonder if there is a significance to having an acronym KISAS?): That is the main reason why there are affairs; they are an escape from reality: you are made to feel special and, as has been pointed out, the daily reality of life does not intrude into the A.<P>It is a common syndrome in men. It has its roots in the Dark Ages (and one can actually trace the romantic wanderlust back to prehistory, I suppose) ... it eventually brought us MacDonald's, Walmart and marrigagebuilders.com ... for there was always a next farther road to travel, the next new adventure: there was always some new challenge to conquer. Do you think, after all those milennia of having that behavior ingrained, that it would fade in Man ... just because belief in fire-breathing dragons did?<P>In giving Ann Landers a slight break, perhaps her response (VERY, VERY) indirectly touches on this: each spouse must seek the environment, through adhering to the 4 rules and meeting EN that the KISAS does his adventuring at home: that the next road, the next adventure he wishes to seek is YOU. There is, after all, a severe shortage of fire-breathing dragons around (though some male-bonding types might describe their spouse in such a fashion ... and, no, Zorweb, I will not cut the grass ... hmmm, come to think of it, we don't have any).<P>STL,<BR>KISAS (but retired from wandering)

SeenTheLight,<P>You are my KISA and you can rake my rocks anytime big guy ;-).<P>Z<P>(For those of you who do not know SeenTheLight is my H. We live in the Southwest desert. Low water means no grass in our yard... but the landscape does have gravel in places - like all over.)<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bernzini:<P>>>>However, to someone who has a hard time dealing with crisis and responsibility and ocasional boredom, yeah, I can see where he would need to be coddled. He would need to grow up.<P>Fairy dust, I will use your post as an example of what I should be doing. It has been hard getting back on track after our long separation. Now I am the one who feels the need to be pampered. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>>>>><P>Bernzini - I think things have worked out so well between us because in addition to me realizing that he tends to be a "high maintenance" person when it comes to ENs, he also realizes that his expectations of relationships weren't always realistic. I am by far the longest relationship he's ever had. Other than me his past relationships lasted between 3-9 months and he had basically been the one to end all of them. He had really never even gotten to the "comfort" stage of a relationship before. In our case he got to see first hand that once things didn't go exactly the OW's way she was no longer his idol worshipper. She started LB'ing all over the place.<P> At first I did feel like I was "coddling" him when I was in Plan A mode. After all, I was mostly getting nothing in return. But then it started to turn around. Now he is as complimentary to me as I am to him. He always thanks me for making dinner etc. It is really nice. But if he were still only taking and never giving back it would get pretty old pretty quick. That could cause great resentment in the "giver". Before the A my h was pretty much a definite "taker" (except in the initial "honeymoon stage" of our relationship). We have now learned to meet in the middle and our marriage has become equal give and take on both of our parts. I think that is the key.<P>

I find it interesting after reading posts here and "Another Ann Landers". I don't want to be pampered and I don't to be spoiled and taken care of. I don't want a mother. I want a wife, best friend and lover. My emotional needs are simple. I just wanted to feel loved, wanted and desired. I told my wife that I don't want to be pampered and I rather take care of my own chores. I want her to be there for me emotionally. We have been doing "our" chores together 100%.<BR>I make sure I do my share of the house work, yard work and making my family comfortable. She did the same. What was missing? Emotional connection.<P>As a man, I hate this "Knights in Shining Armor" because its not what I wanted. I want to feel like I am a human being and my only ego booster need is simply being wanted, loved and desired.<P>I am sure there are men who are like are in this position compare to other men who simply wants to play or being selfish with their own ego. Please don't think that ALL men are like what I have been reading. There are some men who are like in my position in our marriages that romance and love basically died.<P>My wife thinks if she "take care" of me, I am happy and now she knows I don't want to be taken care of. Now she knows how I am feeling, she is fighting to rekindle the relationship. It might be too late because the fire died years ago. I still love my wife and will always love her. I will stay married to her as long as she wants to stay married to me. I will give her hope and chances that my feelings for her will return. I won't give that up. Its just the fact after years of feeling & knowing she felt obligated to have sex with me, my desire for sex have dropped dramatically. I love sex but I no longer desire to have sex with her.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Scottishman:<BR>[B]I find it interesting after reading posts here and "Another Ann Landers". I don't want to be pampered and I don't to be spoiled and taken care of. I don't want a mother. I want a wife, best friend and lover. My emotional needs are simple. <P>I am sure there are men who are like are in this position compare to other men who simply wants to play or being selfish with their own ego. Please don't think that ALL men are like what I have been reading. There are some men who are like in my position in our marriages that romance and love basically died.>>><P>Your situation obviously doesn't fit into the "KISAS" (love that acronym!) category. Certainly not all affair situations fit that description, but there are quite afew of us who have had to deal with that. The OW that our H's ended up with were "damsels in distress" who needed to be rescued. If my H's ex OW had been a confident, capable, strong, intelligent career woman she never would have been his OW. He was at a point in his life where he was feeling weak and helpless (due to depression). He needed to feel like he could ride in and save the day. <P><<< Now she knows how I am feeling, she is fighting to rekindle the relationship. It might be too late because the fire died years ago.>>><P>I don't think it is ever too late if both parties are willing to put in the effort. There was a point in time when my H thought he no longer loved me. Now he tells me daily how thankful and happy he is that I am in his life. I have a very close friend who at one time decided she HATED her husband. Couldn't stand the sight of him. She had an A. They worked hard on their marraige and 6 years later are very much in love. It can and does happen, but it's not easy.<P>>> I still love my wife and will always love her. I will stay married to her as long as she wants to stay married to me. I will give her hope and chances that my feelings for her will return. I won't give that up. >>>><P>It works best if both of you put in a good effort. At first my H wasn't willing to put forth that effort. Once things got rolling he realized it was very much worth his while. I wish you the best of luck and I hope it works out.<P>

My WS certainly fit this category!!! He took her to see a movie I wanted to see but he told me he didn't want to see it because it looked "lame". He went with her to emissions so "she wouldn't be lonely during all that waiting". Yet he was pretty darn pissed when he had to fix the alternator on my car.<P>I guess it's pretty normal for anyone to be more willing to do something when it's not really their responsibility.<P>LG

Thanks fairydust. My wife don't know what to do because she have been diagnosed by several marriage counselors that she is very co-dependent in our marriage. All she wanted is security and be taken care of. I knew that for years and my wife still denies she very co-dependent. I told her that rekindling won't happen until she realize that she needs to love herself and dependent on herself. I want her to depend on me for emotional, romantical and sexual security. If she don't change, I will leave the marriage once I am ready to leave the marriage. I can't live with a wife who takes care of me or depend on me for superficial reasons. Love feels so empty. There is no emotional connections. I will wait and see if she is willing to change for herself (not for me).

I was very surprised that my H was "helping" a woman he met on the net with her marital woes. When she told me he was very supportive and was a shoulder to cry on (via email and phone calls) I about fell over since I'd been crying to him to open up to me and talk about OUR marriage.<P>I found it truly amazing!<P>

fairydust - very important and insightful post!! Should go in the post 'hall of fame' :-)<BR>

To all WS's who think they are not in the fog:<P>KISAS!!!! Yep, that's H. To the T. Helps anyone in distress and there are many OWs crying wolf distress calls everyday. Everyone except his family. <P>Doesn't want to hurt OWs feelings, says OW's H is not around to help her, wants to trim her trees. Hm..... OW eats it all up, because she is still playing house. She said in one of her e-mails that they are like they are married or better. <P>What is better? Pretending and leaving it when the show is over. Like babysitting and getting to return the baby when you are too tired to watch it and then borrow it when you want to make it look like you have a family? Ok for relatives and close friends but pretend to have a family? Pretend to who? <P>Join us in the real world. It takes a bit more work, but it is definitely more satisfying. Doesn't it look funny to see a 40 year old man and OW playing with Barbie dolls on the front porch everyday? <P>Those fantasy land dreamers. I thought playing house ended before puberty. That KISA can eventually get kinks. Rusty and bent out of shape. Then what? <P>Take off the armor, stop playing with the Barbie and Ken dolls and begin living a real adult life with your own real spouse and your own real children. Those dolls only look good but are not capable of making a real family or showing real love. <P>L.<p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited May 22, 2001).]