My husband crashed. I don't know what happened. He said he finally made up his mind and he's leaving, we need to make plans.<P>He is quitting on me! He is so sad and depressed. He can't forgive himself for hurting me (I told him I forgave him, but that is not good enough). He even spoke with OW and told her how horrible he is and to forget she ever met him (he said it was not a pleasant experience!). They had been in No Contact for this past week.<P>He just wants out, he wants to forget about me, the kids, everything and just live in misery. I tried to turn this into a Plan B and say I would be there for him, but he is adamant about not turning back. He says no matter what happens, even if he gets help and decides he wants me back, he won't do it - he's hurt me and the kids enough.<P>He keeps saying he's a horrible person / father and can't stand it anymore. He's ruined our lives and he can't keep sucking our love with nothing in return. He's cancelling our counseling session for Wednesday. I tell him we can work it out and I won't give up on him, he can become a good person again, but he just says he doesn't want to!!<P>What can I do? I can't plan a, I can't plan b, he's so depressed I can't even let him go cuz' he'll just sink into a deeper depression. I can't get him help cuz' he's just refusing it. He listens to me but says it's doing no good because he's made up his mind, he's going to live in misery.

This might not agree with what most people will tell you, but since he's repentent I would tell him that his lapse is really no big deal in the larger scheme of things and no way is he a bad guy. Just look at this board! The vast majority of marriages have cheating. It's nasty but it's human nature. I'd forgive my H on the spot if he were repentent, but he's not and that's another issue then. So look, just point out that he's being totally into himself with all of this self-hatred, and that the only way NOT to hurt you and the kids is to get his act together and start behaving with some pride and dignity. You can help restore that pride and dignity I'm sure but telling him that his lapse was 'normal' in the sense that it's as common as rainwater and that it's not so bad cause he's gone clean and realises his mistake, and that there is so much more to him than his trist with some floozy, etc. etc.<P>And be sure that he gets that he will hurt the kids and you by far more by being so stuck in the mud.

Oh I try, I try so hard to make him see, but he has convinced himself that the best thing for me and the kids is to be rid of him. I tell him that this happens to lots of people, it will get better, etc. Nothing. He says he'll hurt all of us once one big time, then we'll get over it and get on with our lives and he'll just live in misery. He says it's better for the kids to get hurt now while they're young rather than when they are older.<P>I asked if I could still be his friend and do stuff and he said, "of course". Then I said why don't I stop being his wife for a while and just be there as a friend (to help him over the depression), he said no, it has to end now.<P>He is convinced he is not depressed and is just a bad person. I am blind and cannot (will not) see the true him. <P>I've tried everything and will try some more tonight. He is hurting so bad. He has no one. He has alienated himself from his entire family. No friends/family nothing. Just me. I am going to try having his parents come up tonight to see if they can make him realize he needs help, but that is probably a mistake since he is currently not talking to his mother (she interfered with his OW).<P>BTW, he only had an EA (only!).<P>

Sometimes the EAs are worse, you know, and lead to more turmoil, like your husbands. Though in most cases it's cause it's unrequited love. Real sex sometimes brings some reality in, though in many cases not. <P>Here's a possibility. First off, he's depressed about the OW for sure. Just a week that they have had no contact, so of course he's deeply disturbed about that. After all, he's been in love with her and has felt anguished and guilty about it, now he doesn't have contact with the object of his desires, and he looks at you and sees all the misery he's caused, etc. etc. So time alone will take care of some of that. But the possibility is that he is using the self-hatred as an excuse to separate from you and pursue the affair. He might not consciously be planning that, but it's logical in that once he has separated he won't feel the obligation to be faithful, and the cheating will be easier to justify. He may tell himself, I'm a total s**t, I hate myself, but what difference does it make now if I see the OW, my marriage is ruined anyway.<P>If he had any clear perspective at all he would be worried about the kids first and foremost in most liklihood. The fact that he's not putting their interests first, and openly misunderstands their interests, indicates depression, yes, but might also indicate the unrequited love burning in his heart. <P>Figure out if he's been contacting the OW. If he has, that is the first thing to deal with. If not, wait a couple of weeks and see what happens, he should improve. If not, then call a crisis hotline and find a really good therapist for this sort of thing to advise you.

<B>he only had an EA </B> i think this is the worse of the options if my opinon matters at all.<P>i am sorry for your current position, your post hurt to read. <P>you H sounds as if he is in serious withdrawl!! no contact for only a week!! i remember sobbing and crying so hard and hurting so bad at that point i would actually cry until i vomitted the emotional hurt was so powerful the loss is a grieving process.<P>as awful as it sounds put the seperation between your H and the OW in the same perspective as if she was a trusted and valued friend, one who knew all the evils of your H and still accepted him and "Loved" him. well to your H she just died. not only that He just <B>KILLED</B> her. He is grieving that loss. and although it was a mercy killing, one that was ultimatly in everyones best interest, he will have to grieve to recover.<P>he is also grieving the loss of his integrity, that he has come to realize that all the rationalizing he has done was to cover what he ultimatly knew was wrong. that he is capable of something he never believed. and this he also must grieve.<P>how you act and support him now is very important, i am not confident i can give you the right answer, but i know that he can recover from this. I never thought leaving was the right way, i knew that leaving would have been easier, I knew that the kids would recover, i knew that my wife could find another to love, and i knew i had done a horrible thing and didnt deserve the chance to remain married.<P>i would suggest that you choose to be his friend now whether he says he wants that or not. listen to him avoid LBing, acknowledge his losses. promote his fathering, get him to concentrate on the loss his children would have, if he has to leave, convince him to spend an extra ordinary amount of time with his kids. get him to commit to doing work around the house, need him to help! the lawn, the car, what ever he is good at show him through your requests that you need him and that you value what he can contribute.<P>this is such a hard time, I can so clearly remember the ache in my chest that seemed as though it would never go away.<P>your in my thoughts HBH. i wish you luck<p>[This message has been edited by chazbutler (edited May 21, 2001).]

Hi HbH,<P>You and your H are in great pain right now. If you feel that your H is repentant but not willing to work due to depression or other reasons, there may be a silver lining in this for you. <P>My take is make lemonade out of the lemons that you have been handed. Can both you and H have a phone counseling session with Steve Harley? Do it ASAP. <P>Your H may need someone other than you to talk with. Be gentle with him. Reassure him of your love but don't be surprised if he rejects your love and care and opt for the OW. My H left on the premise of needing to be on his own but H & OW were already making plans. H felt it was too painful to tell me the full truth (see it was partly true) so he felt lying or stretching the truth was his better option. Stupid fog logic.<P>Anyway, get with Steve ASAP. If your H won't do it then you do. Take the Emotional Needs questionnaire first. If both of you can do it, the better. We did and had only one session, H claimed it did not help but I believe it did. I am still working on setting up another one. <P>Take care, help is available. <P>L.

Thanks guys. I realize that he is going through withdrawal and the pain he must feel. I do also know that if he stuck around and didn't QUIT that things would eventually get better for him and us. However, HE does not realize this and wants to take the quick way out.<P>Chaz, I like your ideas for keeping him busy and focusing on the kids. Unfortunately he says I am manipulating him by trying to show him how much pain he will cause the kids (I am using the kids to make him stay), but he can't just keep ignoring it.<P>I am going to try and see if he'll stick around for another few weeks until my daughter is done school, I am hoping that amount of time will help and he will realize we are what he wants and that he should not quit. If that won't work, then I'll just be here for him (even though he insists I get on with my life and not wait for him), stay put and force him to make all the plans if he's going to leave(instead of working with him to figure out how it is BEST for him to leave). He can do the damage himself, I'm not going to help.<P>While that's going on I'll be there for him as a friend and try to help him get through the pain and give him hope for the future. That's what I've been doing for the past week, but I'm hoping that him calling the OW gives him some sort of closure and he can move on. I hope she does not try to grab on and won't let go, oh, please don't let THAT happen.<P>OKAY. ONE LAST THING. WHAT CAN I SAY TO MY HUSBAND TO TRY AND GIVE HIM HOPE? That's what he needs more than anything. Hope that things will get better and he will get past this pain.<P>And we had SUCH a nice weekend too... (see my post from Sunday).<P>Thanks for the support guys!!

take the emphasis off staying and being with the kids, tell him reguardless of where he lives he is important to the kids. ask him how you can help him find a good balance of time with the kids.<P>dont make being connected to the kids a reason to stay in the house. <P>

Chaz, thanks for your reply. I am not actually trying to use the kids to make him stay, but he does see it like that. I just try to tell him how much his leaving will hurt them.<P>Can you share with me what your wife did while you were in your withdrawal phase and miserable? Did you not want her around, or was she your shoulder to cry on? <P>My husband has sinced calmed down somewhat and told me that he does not want to use me for comfort. I find that odd since I didn't even know I was comforting him... And double odd why he wouldn't want it... He agreed to be my friend and let me comfort him that way, but we have not yet talked about whether he is staying in the house or not. We were best friends before all this started and he even opened up to me today and told me how awful talking to his OW was and how it made him feel to push her away. I told him it takes time to get over her and he said "I know". At least that's better than "I'll never get over her..."<P>He also came "out of the fog" somewhat and actually said "maybe you are right. Maybe I did fall for her because she gave me something that was missing in our relationship." Hey, it's a start. Chaz, when you were in withdrawal did you start coming more and more out of the fog as time went on? How long did it last for you?<P>He also told me that it hurt him more to call OW and "push her away" than all of the pain he's caused me. I find that so awful, it makes me feel like a doormat. Did you have these same feelings for your OW and later regret the pain you caused your wife? <P>Thanks!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hurtbyhubby:<BR><B>Chaz, thanks for your reply. I am not actually trying to use the kids to make him stay, but he does see it like that. I just try to tell him how much his leaving will hurt them.<P>Can you share with me what your wife did while you were in your withdrawal phase and miserable? Did you not want her around, or was she your shoulder to cry on? </B><P>i had lead a very lonely life, i had no friends, no relatives, there was no one else, i wanted her to be with me constantly, alas she could barely stand to look at me. i had to demand to come home- i was out for only a week.<P><B>My husband has sinced calmed down somewhat and told me that he does not want to use me for comfort. I find that odd since I didn't even know I was comforting him... And double odd why he wouldn't want it... He agreed to be my friend and let me comfort him that way, but we have not yet talked about whether he is staying in the house or not. We were best friends before all this started and he even opened up to me today and told me how awful talking to his OW was and how it made him feel to push her away. I told him it takes time to get over her and he said "I know". At least that's better than "I'll never get over her..."<P>He also came "out of the fog" somewhat and actually said "maybe you are right. Maybe I did fall for her because she gave me something that was missing in our relationship." Hey, it's a start.</B><P>its a wonderful start!<P><B> Chaz, when you were in withdrawal did you start coming more and more out of the fog as time went on? How long did it last for you?</B><P>i never really was in withdrawl, i wanted my wife all along, she never made herself availible, the minute she decided to try and be an active participant the fog began to fade.<P>i was very mad at my wife, i hated how she had been so mean and controlling how she treated me, i wanted her to love me to charish me thats all.<P><B>He also told me that it hurt him more to call OW and "push her away" than all of the pain he's caused me. I find that so awful, it makes me feel like a doormat. Did you have these same feelings for your OW and later regret the pain you caused your wife? </B><P>i would be hard pressed to compare the two situations, unless you told me that you emotionally abused your husband for say 10 years sucking every last breath of life from his lungs making him think things like driving on the wrong side of the road were better than living this way. i just dont get that from your posts.<P>yes in my situation saying godbye to a woman who literally pulled me out from under the water and proved to me once again that i was worthy of love, not only from others but from myself was the most difficult thing i had ever done.<P>i loved her, and i love the memory of her. <P>what i did to my marriage i realized and owned before D-Day, i knew the pain and was remorseful beyond belief from day one. the next task proved just as difficult as saying goodbye to my OW. i had to be clear with my wife that it wasnt just her who was deciding whether to stay in the marriage. there was no way i was going to live another day the way things were. but how could i the one who betrayed my wife and family expect anything? i just knew i couldnt survive a day with her the way things were. and i was finally free to say what need to be said. what i had been simply petrified to say before.<P>anyway my situation is likely different than most, but ill offer that he found the qualities of a real friend in the OW that she accepted him complete with deviant ideas, defects, deception and all he was perfect to her. and she never ever hurt him. so he had a perfect relationship one that seem so real, i mean its not a dream, you touch, laugh, cry, everything a real live relationship has, except the reality of life.<P>ill guess that if she persued him he will recognize the penalty and come around quicker, if he persued her, and he feels like he manipulated a good girl into doing such a bad thing, he will be very hard on himself, and he will feel bad for her for a long period of time.<P>Thanks![/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

hbh,<P>My impression is that your H is going through OW withdrawal in a major way. There is no doubt in my mind that he was/is in pain; he does indeed sound very depressed by his very nature and the way he is handling this. Please - don't take it personally; you *are* his W, and you married him to meet his needs. If your H chooses another outlet to make the pain go away, you have only one choice: abide by it, or walk away. <P>Anyone/thing can be your "best friend" when you're in pain - drugs, alcohol, gambling. And especially OP - they are the ultimate "drug!!" The ultimate "friend." Your H, at this point, does not realize that she was the enemy, plotting WITH him to destroy his life, his marriage, his complete happiness. In time, he will know. Oh, believe me, if he *does* pursue the OW, he *will* know. Manipulations become apparent once reality sets in - and after a lot of time. Unfortunately, many people, when their needs are being met by the OP drug, fail to realize who and what the enemy really is, because that "high" is so addictive, they literally cannot tear themselves away from it. Who knows, your H might feel that he has done something so heinous that the only loser bigger than himself is the OW, and for that reason, they belong together??<P>I wish I knew what advice to give you. My instincts tell me that you should begin to distance yourself from him with love. You cannot cure an alcoholic or a drug abuser. You cannot cure a person who is still hooked on the OP. The only way to save yourself is to get out of the crossfire so that you don't get hurt anymore than you already have.<P>((hugs))<P>belldandy

Oh this hurts so much. Thank you Chaz and Bell. Here's a sort of update. I tried to talk to my husband about things last night, but it didn't go very well. He said yes, he wanted to stay friends, but he does not want me there to help him right now. He just needs to be alone and not have anyone around, especially me. He does not want to be with me anymore. When I ask what time he'll be home from work (so I can leave for my work), he says that shouldn't matter because we're not supposed to be together anymore anyway and he was thinking of working out. He is being very mean and thoughtless. He is doing his thing and not caring that it effects my hours at work or my sleep, or the kids. <P>Now for most people in withdrawal it seems like they want to get back with their H/W and that's what motivated him. For my husband, he just is depressed about everything and wants to get away from it all.<P>Okay, the best thing for him IS probably to be alone right now. The problem is he has no $$ to do so. He started his job a couple of days ago, but the $$ has not come in yet. He has alienated himself from everyone, so he has no friends he can stay with. In order to give him his space it means I HAVE to move out, with the kids. My daughter has to change schools right near the end of the school year, I will need to commute 1/2 hour longer to work. Either that, or I have to support him when he moves out (for a few weeks), which I'm sure won't help his self-esteem.<P>The other thing you have to realize is that THIS IS WHAT MY HUSBAND DOES when he gets depressed. He tries to push everyone/everything away from him at all costs, even if that means being mean to me. It's usually not what he wants, but just what he tries to do. He's done it plenty of times in the past and has later thanked me for staying by his side. It has only been 1 day since he essentially killed what he had with OW. <P>My husband is also adamant that what he is doing is not because of OW, it is something he's wanted to do for a long time and she just gave him the balls to do it (leave the marriage). At first I thought this was just fog-talk. Now I don't know. I met all his EN's from what I could tell and he says he really liked his life. I know he did feel trapped /dependent on me though, so maybe that is what fuels his desire to leave.<P>I guess I know it's time for Plan B, it's just once again, I have to be the one to take the bull by the horns and try to do something positive for both him and our family. If I leave it up to him I think he will waiver and never leave (and if that's true, should I really plan B??)

I think talking about having wanted out of the marriage for years is in the normal range. It's part of how affairs come to be in the first place. Normal caring adults don't just get up one day and look at their perfect marriage and say you know I think I'll have an affair. It starts by first focusing on the negative for so long, and looking for justifications and picking apart all the positive to find negative to back up your feelings. It happens all the time to otherwise great marriages unfortunately.<P>I think your husband would really benefit from some anti depressant medication if you could get him to go to even your general practitioner to talk about it. I feel so sorry for you, been there and done that. The good news is he came back two and a half weeks later a changed man in my case, so I got lucky. I really don't think you picking up and leaving with the kids sounds like a great idea personally. The children will be through enough if you guys split up believe me, anything you can do to otherwise keep their life as stable and normal as possible is definitely in their best interest. I say if he wants to leave it is his choice and responsibility, you don't have to hurt yourself and the kids by moving out. Besides, if that gets to a court of law that way it will make YOU the spouse that abandoned the relationship and put YOU in a bad spot potentially, I wouldn't do it.<BR>