After my huge 'on purpose' LB yesterday, I'm finding that it was far bigger than I thought it could be. <P>What I had done, was 'snoop' in his phone directory, and copy the names and numbers of women on it that I did not know. Then I called them to tell them that, "although it is none of my business whether or not you have had sexual relations with my H, I have recently, and got tested, and the tests have come back abnormal. I have to go back to my obgyn and get another test done to see what, if anything, it is. That will take a few weeks to get any answers, so in the meantime, if you have had sex with him, I urge you to get tested."<P>H overheard me talking to one of the women on the phone, and was extremely upset with me. I know it's an LB to him to do any 'snooping' in his 'private stuff', and to a certain extent, I don't blame him for hating me when I do that. I hate myself when I do it too... talk about self destructive behaviour by me! ouch!! He asked me why I hadn't mentioned anything about my tests to him. I told him 'because you never asked me'. (He knew that I went to get tested a few weeks ago).<P>I was chatting with him a bit on icq tonight, and I got told, "I will never love you, I have absolutely no desire to get back together with you, nor will I ever, after what you did yesterday there is no way I will ever forgive you, EVER."<P>What should I do? I know that Plan B needs to be started, but it won't do any good to start now, I don't think. Should I do a bit more Plan Aing and see if his mood changes any, and then jump into plan b? Advice would be much appreciated!<P>Karen<BR>

Karen; Yep you did some major LB there,but if he is still with OW he's still in the fog I'd keep with plan A and see what happens.But you have to stop with the snooping,you can't get ahead if you keep backing up.Good luck. NTK

Well, while your WS might not see the humor and reward in you pulling off your LB, it is the kind of thing that most BSs only fantasize of doing. Lol<P>What amuses me about some WSs is that they are so sensitive about things like this. They can cheat, be disrespectful, drag their spouses through hell and the world is supposed to understand them and forgive them. But one act of poor judgment like your LB from a BS and they cannot be forgiven? Give me a break.<P>You said that your test results came back abnormal. If the suspected condition was contagious then your husband has a moral obligation to tell anyone he’s slept with that they need to be tested. If he would not tell them, then it would be reasonable and ethical for you to do so. <P>I'm sorry but the sick side of me is enjoying your LB. Cannot help it.<P>IMHO<BR>Z<BR>

Karen,<P>I cannot help but to get a perverse satisfaction out of this too. It would have been the same thing I might have done - and did do, to a degree - pre-Harley (but that's another story). Definitely what I *wanted* to do, that's for certain, lol!<P>Your H is angry right now because you are possibly interfering with the solace of his secrecy, and someone you might tell might just get the word around. And then he will be perceived in a negative light. Obviously, he deserves it. <P>I'm not going to hammer you, Karen. Everyone makes mistakes. At times, EMRs turn us into the ugly, vicious, plotting people that our WSs claim we are. They are the only ones who win then! Take it easy - my H eventually forgave me for "interfering" with his little tete-a-tete with yet another woman I didn't know (and still don't know too much about, however, i think that she was probably XOW #2: The One-Night Stand). Now she backed off pretty quickly when she found out that he was not only married, but trying to hide the situation. >: )<P>Forgive yourself, and just remember that your H is not in his right mind, okay? We've all done stupid things. ((hugs))<P>belld<P>

Karen,<P>So were the tests really positive? Big time LB. But when you are already in the plan B mode these things happen. <P>Ok there are those of us that can understand why you did that. In fact I am sure you have heard some of our stories (mine was the laundry bag and OW's H). There was more but you get the point. <P>Was it an LB? Yes. Am I sorry? No. Was I driven to that point. OW & H sure did help. In fact they directed me to her home just by their stupid antics. Thinking it was ok to play games with me. So when I started playing, oooh they did not like it. <P>Enough, now that is out of our systems, let's put back our respectibility outfits and go back to being the respectible people everyone knows us to be. <P>But I know how you feel and understand. Hope one day, your H will look back at this and laugh. Mine did. He told my cousin what happened and laughed. That was the start of his recovery. <P>Take care and be good??!?!?<P>L.<BR>

Karen, Well, some might say that if you're gonna LB, LB BIG!! But the satisfaction is not worth the Plan A setback. That said, WOW - do you have ba***!!!!!<P>So, is it true or not? If so, believe it or not, it's probably a BIGGER LB because you hit the truth button and are making him squirm big time.<P>Don't dwell on the "never" threat. Re-instate a perfect Plan A for awhile and it'll blow over in the grand scheme, I think.<P>WAT

Yes, it felt good to get revenge at the time, but I wish you would have come here to ask our opinion (if that would have helped in your decision) about making the calls. Not only did it backfire on you, but I'm sure some of these woman have not had sex with your husband and now you have given a picture of yourself to be a little "OUT THERE" and it may give these OW the picture that your H deserves some sympathy for having been married to you and you gave him the reason to say "SEE, SHE IS CRAXY, THAT IS WHY I CHEATED"! Sorry to be so harsh, but you even admit yourself that it was self-destructing. I know you can't do anything to change your actions at this point but, this should stay between you and your H, don't give ANY WOMAN reason to believe that she is a member of the equation.

Hmmm... 50/50 response on a 'way to go' attitude vs. BAD KAREN! attitude. I need more "BAD KAREN!!!" input. I do acknowledge what I did was wrong, and I know exactly why I did it. Revenge. Plain and simple. I wanted to hurt him, and I succeeded. But as SAA says, "when (I) win, love loses".<P>I did some more soul searching last night, and did some personality tests online (I LOVE those things!). H is pretty much a true passive agressive, and I'm a dependant (in relationships). My 'controlling' nature comes out viciously in retort to his p/a control over me. It used to work for us, but I have become too clingy. That has given him more reason (in his mind) to control me, and then I respond (extremely poorly), and we're in our vicious cycle yet again.<P>My controlling nature is what drove me to make those calls. Actually, I hadn't originally intended to call the 'new list' of numbers I had found, until I got a return call from PA OW #2. She told me that she just found out that she was exposed to herpes (prior to having sex with my H), but has had no breakout (and apparently you cannot be tested for that unless a breakout occurs). I shared that info with H, and he withdrew (there went his p/a side), then came my part, and I started calling the list. And by calling the list, I took away H's control of doing that himself. I didn't trust he would. But I never even gave him the chance (which would have been the 'proper' way to deal with it).<P>Is it true that my tests returned positive? No. But I do have to take them again.. the lab made some errors, ergo, 'abnormal results'. Was I lying? I don't think so. Just a little bit of stretching out the truth some. Am I rationalizing my behaviour right now? Oh yeah. And I hate it.<P>So now I'm back to square one. My own fault, but I accept full responsibility for it. Plan Aing is excrutiatingly difficult for me to accomplish, because my H is having serial cheating tendancies. I can honestly say that I have forgiven him for the 2 PA's that have for certain occurred in the last few months. And I'm pretty sure that those two women are no longer factors, sexually. Emotionally, OW #1 is a different story. But it's killing me that I have no idea just how many other women I'm up against right now, emotionally speaking. I believe that is what draws me in to the snooping so easily. Geesh! If all I had were the original 2 OW to deal with, I'd have it easy!<P>I really do hope this whole event gets blown over by me doing some more perfect plan Aing.. although my own confidence level isn't very high on that one (I did a self esteem test last night too... I am at a 'medium' level.. I guess that's better than low self esteem though! grin).<P>I just annoy the crap out of myself b/c I know exactly what I need to do to make this all work, and yet I continue to do those big LB's. It's almost like it has become a game to me, and that's so wrong! I'm dealing with my FUTURE here, not some wishy washy thing.<P>Karen<BR>

I'm torn on this snooping thing. The only way I knew what was going on with my H was by doing so. By selectively confronting, I got lots out in the open, sometimes it helped, sometimes not. I actually confronted the OW twice during the EA, once in person at her house where I told her off bigtime, and again on the phone in front of H. Since then, I've met with her privately and she and I have actually communicated. I "got through to her" by telling her what she had done to the kids (the kids are friends), and letting her know some of the untruths she'd been told by H. She is so out of the relationship now and will do anything I ask to try and make it better for H & I. H&I still have major problems, and he may run to try and replace her, but at least I know that I can trust her to stay away. It was gutsy on my part, but damn it felt good. H doesn't know that the OW and I are talking, although I think he suspects we have. <BR>It was an empowerment thing for me and luckily it worked. I always ask myself two questions before I react to anything: 1) how would I want my daughter to handle a similar situation, 2) How will I feel about this decision in two weeks, two months, or two years. If the answers are positive, I go for it. Someday, H will realize the extent I went to to save him from himself. I may or not be there with him when that happens. Play dumb... act smart. Be consistent. Only you know what might work for you. Chin up... be strong.

My personal experience and opinion on 'snooping' is that it is necessary. However, there comes a time when it does more bad than good. The snooping only makes you hurt more after you have reached that 'time'.<P>In a 'normal' (as if that's the right word.. I know it's not) affair situation, when there is only one OP, more likely than not, in order to find out 'for sure' what's going on, some snooping is involved. Once you know what you're faced with (be it an EA or a PA... it doesn't matter), then you deal with it. If you continue to snoop, then all you get are the (gory?) details, and that will only end up making it harder to make the first plan A steps.<P>Call it rationalizing if you will, but because I no longer know how many different women I'm dealing with, I still have that urge to snoop. That's why I think it would be easier to deal with only one or 2 OW. But since new ones keep on popping up here and there, I"m at a loss. That's why plan a is so hard for me (and others who are dealing with serial cheaters). Plan B is an absolute necessity, but the plan A foundation still needs to be set extremely well before it can be implemented.<P>I'm not sure if this makes any sense to any of you.. but I know the message I'm trying to convey...lol. If you gotta snoop, snoop. Once the snooping only hurts you more b/c all you're getting are the intimate details of the A, then stop and focus on your plan A.<P>Karen<BR>

Karen,<BR>First, go girl ! I know from your post that you're not naturally a vindictive person. I don't think a lot of people truly understand the emotional strain this stuff can put a person through! In particular most WS (some here are very understanding) -- It does seem that a typical WS uses a double standard when it comes to judging rational behavior & forgiving such behavior!<P>Like others have said, you H's comments were meant to hurt you back & he probablly did not literally mean everything he said.<BR>What is done is done -- please try to look for positive and move on -- <BR>Tywla's post on Recovery board entitled "interesting article" is an excellant overview of our delima & sheds a lot of light on the difficulty a typical BS has to deal with -- we deserve to be in the FOG once in awhile as well!! There's another good post entitled "? for needy BS (or perspective from WS's)" -- we're not alone with some of our craziness!<BR>Hang in there !<BR>Peace be with you,<BR>HH<BR>PS -- I just learned how to do the smiley faces -- hope they work & that I did not overdo it with them!

Karen,<P>I tend to agree that a certain amount of "snooping" is necessary. Is it really snooping to look at your H's cell phone bill? After all, this is an expense that *both* of you are jointly responsible for, no matter whose name it is in. Ditto for credit cards and other expenses. There should be no secrecy with respect to finances - ergo, it should not be considered "snooping" if you find out just how *your* joint money is being spent.<P>The problems come in when you tip your hand too soon. I acted before I had solid proof of my H and the XOW. If I would have played dumb for a longer time and perhaps went about things in a different way, I might have received more information than I got. Instead, when I approached him with my suspicions (nothing tangible), it was very easy for him to discount them as my being "unreasonable."<P>Hope you're doing okay today, Karen - when I "snooped" (e.g. found out about the women my H was seeing/talking to), he too claimed that he could "never trust me again." I too hit the "truth" button, and he was really p*ssed off about it. It's very typical for someone who is still in the Fog.<P>belld

I'm doing much better today.. posting on here always helps me. I LOVE this place! In fact, I'm rather addicted to it. But I hope it's a 'good addiction', if that's even possible! grin<P><BR>Belled: your comment about the 'fog' is just making me fume. Not at you.. but at 'it'. It is really starting to bother me.. the way that it is so easily being used to account for all of the foolish behaviours that we all encounter and make.<P>I'm just getting tired of the 'fog' being the reason for so many things. I think it would be better to use the word 'selfishness' sometimes instead. Because really, that's what it is.<P>In reality, I think that using that term is not helping many on here to be able to focus on their parts in the marriage breakdown. It's too easy to say that our spouse is in the fog, and that's why they do or are doing what they do. I think it is taking away from the fact that we have to be accountable as well. Granted, yes, there are some cases (but few and far between) where the BS has had no part in the pre-A issues. But for the most part, our marriages were in trouble ahead of time, we saw signs, but even if we recognized them, we didn't know how to deal with them.<P>Maybe I'm just upset because I have 'seen the light' so to speak, and can understand more about plan A and how improving myself is so vital... and what 'improving myself' actually means.<P>sorry for the vent... just had the need! <P>Karen<BR>

Missed most of this thread except the last post. How are you working on improving yourself now? I am having a very hard time with this one. <BR>Anyway, I cant think of anything I want to do. Some books do say try doing a 180 (degrees) or whats not expected. I have not been able to find Dr H's books & cant order them right now. But how are you taking care of yourself to be a better person? <p>[This message has been edited by cantletgo (edited May 30, 2001).]

Karen,<P>Oops! I'm sorry. I know all about the Fog stuff. Sometimes when I read that word, F-G, I want to lose it too. I didn't call my H's fog the "fog" - I called it him playing "The Lying Game" (a play on the movie "The Crying Game"). <P>And now for a silly little confession that might make you smile ... before I had read the Harley books, I was sort of out of control with the LB'ing, especially when H was living with the XOW and not admitting it to me. I was in touch with her, and of course, she swore up and down that he was not living with her, essentially protecting him from me. What a wuss my H was, right? Having the XOW "protect" him from his own W! <P>Well, I knew that there was another woman (one who had posed as my friend) who was interested in sinking her claws into my H. She actually hacked into my H's hotmail account, and to her detriment, she dug her own grave, because I found email upon email of her asking him out to dinner, asking him to invite her to the family ranch, etc., etc. My H replied to her in what might be construed as an "inviting" manner. One of my married friends who'd been through an EMR during her first marriage suggested that I email HER emails to my H and his replies to the OW.<P>So I did it - I emailed the now-XOW the emails from this woman to my H and his replies, which certainly made it look like he was interested in carrying on with her. Shortly afterward, I heard that he refused to have ANYTHING to do with the woman who was emailing him, not returning her calls or pages, essentially ignoring her.<P>Guess XOW tore my H a new a**hole, huh? LOL!!!<P>belld

cantletgo:<P>Hmmmm.... what am I doing to make 'me' a better person? I started out doing the same things like you are. Something I had been neglecting around the house was the usual chores like laundry, dishes, good meals, etc (my excuse was honestly my pregnancy with the twins.. they're 3 months old now). It may sound silly, but for me, doing laundry and dishes and the like makes me feel really good. Although the water and machines do most of the work, it still makes me feel like I've accomplished something worthwhile. I got into a routine with doing those things (with 3 kids under the age of 2, I get the chance to do laundry every day in this house! lol).<P>Doing those things helped me to work through my anger. Literally, my energy was focused on something worthwhile. Before I could do any more, I had to get over my anger phase. When that was on the road to recovery, I was able to think more clearly. What I did then was to focus on what the underlying issues were that lead my H astray. (it was HIS decision to actually sleep with other women... that is NOT something I blame myself for...nor should any BS!).<P>My first focus was on my H. What were his EN's? He would not fill out the questionaires on this site (nor will he still), but from looking back and thinking REALLY hard to many of our former conversations over the years, I was able to 'read between the lines' and to 'see the obvious' too. You know all those little things that are said in passing to each other? They really mean a lot more. Discovering these little things, made me realize how much I took my H for granted. He told me many times some of the things that he needed... but i shrugged them off, feeling it could be put off until later. BAD MOVE!! In my situation, I found that one of the things he was looking for was more 'recreational activities'. He used to always talk about how we needed to get out more, and we agreed that we had to go on 'dates' without the kids, etc. Sure, we always talked about it, but never actually DID anything! There were always excuses. There were excuses on BOTH our parts. <P>Only you can discover what your H's EN's are, and if he is willing to fill out the questionnaires... all the better! <P>I started slowly working on his EN's. I tried to avoid LBing (but as you can tell by this thread... I still don't have the hang of it.. sigh!).<P>What was working for us, was getting into conversations again, renewing our friendship that started our relationship. The topic to avoid as much as humanly possible: H's A's. I somehow learned how to ask better questions (using "I" statements, and asking how he felt about things, etc). We talked about our past (while avoiding the A's), and by really listening to him (for a change, so I found), I was able to catch on better to things he'd been saying to me all along. For example, we'd get into a 'discussion' (never had many fights to be quite honest); he'd give his opinion, I'd give mine. Sometimes I would give mine, and he would answer, "why should I bother? you're always right.". HUH??? What was THAT all about? I would answer, "I NEVER say that!!" (which was true). But you know what he was trying to communicate to me? The fact that I was controlling. It was another slap in the face when I saw it. But being able to see it, gave me something to work on. I started doing research. I looked things up on the net, bought a book on it, etc. How can I change? Why am I like that? etc. I'm working on it. It's obviously not going too smoothly right now, but we cannot expect to change overnight! Oh, how I wish I could!<P>Of course I already knew what H's faults were in the whole mess (pre-affairs). The EN's he wasn't fulfilling for me was #1 honesty and #2 affection. I started questioning why he wasn't being honest with me. My controlling behaviours were a big part of it. He didn't feel 'safe' to tell me things. Granted, he never did fess up stuff.. I was always one to 'find' them (like receipts for electronic gadgets that we cannot afford). It was a two way street. But just like I never gave him the chance to make the decision to call those OW to tell them about possible diseases, he never gave me the chance to react by him telling me things BEFORE I found out on my own.<P>Where am I going with this? Let's see if I can get back on track again...heheeh... Plan A. In order for our spouses to change, we must change first. Once you can see some of those things you must change (not because HE wants you to, but because YOU want to... for me, I do NOT like my controlling behaviours.. so I sought and am still seeking info on how to change it).<P>What a long way to try and describe how I am changing for me! Only you can figure out what it is that needs to be changed for you. It takes a lot of digging deep inside, analysing, and most importantly, being so honest with yourself that it hurts! Outward things are only outward: the surface of changes. What really needs to be sought after for a true plan A change on your part is your inner self. Your character.<P>Do a little bit of investigating for yourself. Use a search engine (I used yahoo) and do a search for "personality type tests". Fill them out. They will be quite revealing. I did some last night, and discovered that yes, I am a 'dependant' behaviour in intimate relationships. My H is a passive agressive. These two don't work very well together after a while. I'm now in the process of learning how I can make it work. If it means I have to change my behaviours and patterns, so be it. H is not able to change, not right now anyways. But the best chance he has for that, is to see changes in me first.<P>I'm really not sure if this has helped you any. Each individual situation must vary so. If there is something you're not clear on , which I imagine would be the case b/c there is so much I just wrote, just ask me questions. Try to be specific, and I'll do my best to answer what worked or is working for me.<P>Karen<BR>