H is out of the house. He continued to lie to me and our counselor and I found out Sunday he never stopped seeing her. I threw him out on Sunday. Tonight he & I will sit down to discuss "visitation" and divying up the furniture. My question is..... I am e-mailing him today reminding him to pick up the girls and that we'll talk tonight. They work together and he lies to me about her and lies to her about me. What I want to do is send her the e-mail also, "since you 2 are 'soulmates' now she should know where you are why you are not with her". I want to this because I don't want him to get away with lying to her about me. Not exactly lying, but he doesn't tell her everything, like he still loves me, can't take off, refuses to take off his wedding ring. To me he'll say "I don't want to take it off. The finality is too much." But to her he says nothing. See what I'm saying? He hides things from her because he doesn't want her to know how he feels about me. He can't stand up to her, or me for that matter. So should I cc the e-mail to her? ALSO......June 17th is our 12 year anniversary. We are away from both our families and will be getting cards soon, especially from his family. I want to ask him to call his mom and tell her about the seperation and not to send cards. He doesn't have to give her details, just that we're seperated. Any suggestions??

Just wanted to let you know I responded to your posts in Plan A/ Plan B section. <P>As for your email question, I would have to say that contact with the other woman is usually and generally a bad idea. Besides, if this ends up in court, which it could if you guys are separating anything you put in writing or do could be held against you. I'd be very cautious about this and consider your real motives here. If your real motives are to hold together your marriage the best thing to do would be to ask him to come back I think, keep the door open, you are his wife and you have the upper hand in this whether you know it or not. The odds are in your favor, but not if you are living apart.<P>If you can, I think maybe a phone session with the Harley's to help you develop a plan might be in order. It's much cheaper than a divorce, look at it that way.

Town, You wrote:<P><B>What I want to do is send her the e-mail also, "since you 2 are 'soulmates' now she should know where you are why you are not with her". I want to this because I don't want him to get away with lying to her about me. Not exactly lying, but he doesn't tell her everything, like he still loves me, can't take off, refuses to take off his wedding ring. To me he'll say "I don't want to take it off. The finality is too much." But to her he says nothing. See what I'm saying? He hides things from her because he doesn't want her to know how he feels about me. He can't stand up to her, or me for that matter. So should I cc the e-mail to her? ?</B><P><BR>I did send email...though no name calling, just gentle persuasion to leave my H alone and to work on her own marriage. It created a bond between them against me. I suggest you not do it! Write it and burn it. Write it and post it. But as I have been advised on this site, it give the OW more power than you want her to have!<P>My H had the same conversation about his ring just last week, with tears in his eyes and everything! "I'll never take it off. The five diamonds represent the people involved (us and 3 kids)<P>My H also refuses not to see OW (they work together) or call OW. I refuse to make him leave. He has to make that choice. I will not make him leave his sons and become the villain. But, I will create a loving, safe atmosphere at home. No yelling, no selfish demands (even though we rightful should be able to)... I meet the EN's I have been able to figure out...listening to him & not giving answers, working out together, going places together, giving him space. Read about Plan A and Plan B! Do you have Surviving an Affair? <P>I don't know what to say about family. I told all of ours about A except my dad. Our 12th anniversary comes up in August. I too dread it. <P>Put this in God's hands and listen to Him. He will not lead you wrong.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>See each day as a new beginning!<P>Cali

TI, <P>I can't bring myself to call you by your chosen name here. It seems so harsh.<P>I am assuming that you are at this website because you want to rebuild your marriage. Have you read the principles here or the welcome posted by NSR? If you haven't that would be a good place to start.<P>Addressing the OW is not a good idea. It will empower her which is exactly what you don't want to do. I am sure she is an insecure person with you still being in the picture. The best weapon against her is for her not to have any information. Keep her wondering. She will start nagging you H and we know men can't stand that.<P>If you want your H back, get into a serious Plan A. Read the book Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley. It is an invaluable tool. Create a safe and loving environment for your H to be in. <P>Be careful of what you tell family members. Theirreactions can be unpredictable toward the WS or even yourself.<P>cleo

To inschockincali, how can I not tell him to leave if continues to lie to me about her, sleep her on the weekends when he goes for his "walks", lie to our counselor and continue to work with her?? I tried to be loving and patient and he just lied and lied and lied. As I see it, he made his bed and now has to lay in it. He made the choice to lie to me since September. How many chances do I give hime before I give him a taste of reality?? He even admitts I did nothing wrong, I've been very understanding, loving and patient. How can I let him in the house knowing he'll just start sneaking around again? He has proven his inability to tell me the truth. I refuse to be sucked in by him just to be let down again. My door is open but he has to make the decision to come back, I will NOT ask him to come back.

Hi Town,<P>First off you are not an idiot for trusting and believing in your H. You H is an idiot for breaking that trust.<P>As for contacting OW, ask yourself. Are you prepared to hear what your H told her? you know love , Happy ever after stuff. She wont care what you have to say....she probably has already been told you are crazy or something..cheating H's have a way of covering their Hinneys all the way around.<BR>BUT if you NEED to help you move on..then do it...be very rational (not emotional) and very almost professional (this way if H told her bad things about you, this will place that doubt) Dont say he did this and he said that...let her know that you have thrown him out, and what this A has done to a very good family...in a rational tone...let her know how deeply you hurt, and how your children are suffering...remember it is your choice he is out not his.<BR>stay in "professional mode"..if you go off..she will see that as a validation of what he may have told her.<P>as far as his family is concerned..you should send a letter, with a change of address (his) cuz you know he wont do it. In that letter tell them, if they need questions ans they should speak to him, let him try to explain what he has done to his family. Let them know it would be too painful for you to recieve these cards. that is JMHO..take care..of yourself and your family<P>

To add to the previous post...... I don't want him to have his cake and eat too. Thats what would happen if he comes back. It would be like I am saying it's ok for you to lie to me. I tried plan A before I even saw this site, I was seeing a counselor and took her advice. I would make myself nauseous if I asked him to come back, be all loving and supportive knowing his sitting pretty with his wife at one side and his lover on the other. That sounds insane to me. Last time I did that he just took advantage of my patience, lied to me and had the time of his life sneaking around. HELP!!!!!

Town Idiot:<P>I agree with ScaredinNY. I'd be real leery of putting absolutely anything in writing...it could backfire. Mine did over something entirely innocent (I thought) that started another mess. You can read my posts. <P>I've learned that these people WS/OW, are not rational in any stretch of the imagination. It probably varies somewhat for each individual, but usually not good. I know the OW in my H's life is no doubt a lunatic and H has become one also. They are so unpredictable it's unreal, you never know how anything will be construed no matter what, or the reaction you'll get. In my case something I thought nice provoked a hostile reaction. <P>Please be very careful, for I have been threatened, even had to get an Order of Protection. It's a real scary feeling to have to watch you back all the time. <P> RE: Tonight he & I will sit down to discuss "visitation" and divying up the furniture. <P>I would suggest you do this legally to protect yourself. I am learning the hard way. Lies are too common. My H agreed, promised, etc. said he'd even put it in writing. Of course that has all changed along the way, to the opposite, and a lot of it is rediculous. I get all the bills he ran up and H wants only what advantageous to him & OW. H even wants things of mine for OW (sure). So I would suggest you get all this straight NOW, before your H has too much time to think about it, and is influenced and guided by the OW, all to your detriment. I've learned this the hard way also.<P>Take care and God Bless. <BR>My <BR>

I agree with the making it all legal. Fortunatly I work in a law firm and have extremly good support from the head attorney and his wife. He is drawing up papers and making it a legal seperation. I decided not to send her any copies of any e-mails. I knew I shouldn't but sometimes you need someone to tell you not to. I think I need to post some questions in PLAN A PLAN B section

Hey town:<BR><B>To inschockincali, how can I not tell him to leave if continues to lie to me about her, sleep her on the weekends when he goes for his "walks", lie to our counselor and continue to work with her?? I tried to be loving and patient and he just lied and lied and lied. As I see it, he made his bed and now has to lay in it. He made the choice to lie to me since September. How many chances do I give hime before I give him a taste of reality?? He even admitts I did nothing wrong, I've been very understanding, loving and patient. How can I let him in the house knowing he'll just start sneaking around again? He has proven his inability to tell me the truth. I refuse to be sucked in by him just to be let down again. My door is open but he has to make the decision to come back, I will NOT ask him to come back.</B><P><BR>Each situation is different. My H is not lying to me. He has told me he has not broken off contact, but that PA is not occurring. Do I believe him? No answer.<P>Read about Plan B. Don't make hasty decisions. Check out some Plan B letters. As to how long, I have asked the same ?'s myself, Each case is different. My d-day has been only 3 weeks. I don't know how long you have been doing this.<P>Also read about LB's. Don't allow yourself to sink to their level. You are his wife and the mother of his children, and that, whether it feels like it or not, does give you an upper hand. I agree with you about the cake and eating it too, but make sure that you leave a door open. Don't burn your bridges. <P>I haven't had a phone conference, but I have thought about it. If you can, do. Go to the experts that can advise you with more experience.<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>See each day as a new beginning!<P>Cali

TI,<P>Please do NOT bother with the OW. <P>No matter what you say, she will not believe you.<P>Your H will have an excuse/justification for everything.<P>Any contact with the OW should be actively avoided, IMHO. You will most likely be disappointed. The OW is in the Fog, just like your H.<P>((hugs))<P>belld

Hi TI,<P>It is a sad place to be but you have a need and like the rest of us there is help here. With that, I would like to welcome you to MB. <P>The feelings and frustrations you have now are common. The will subside and the driving factors in your life now will be easier to handle in time. I understand your need to want to communicate with those who are making your life miserable. Please understand that at this point, those very people probably don't care and the effect will be as if you are throwing your pearls of wisdom before swine. The fog does this to our WSs and the OPs make sure they stay that way for a while. <P>With that said, I would like to share with you the thread which shows you the short cuts to the information here at MB. 2 really neat guys and a few others have posted on this thread with many helpful hint that have benefited many of us. You will have a lot of adrenilane now and focusing on reading and educating yourself for what is ahead will prepare you for the future. <P>You will hear terms like: waffling, rollercoaster, in the fog, cake man, etc. and learn that they take on a very different meaning here. Along with that the personal experiences of the posters here will sometimes have a ring of familarity. <P>Here is that thread:<P> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/009007.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/009007.html</A> <P>There are many experiences we can share. Some will make you cry and others will make you laugh. People in the fog, do and say some pretty stupid things. Those that deal with those fogheads also get themselves in sometimes funny situations. But our support is here. There are BS and WS's (in recovery) here. In addition to that, there are books along with the phone counseling service available to all MB posters. Take advantage of all the services you can. Having your own counselor as well is helpful. Build your support group among friends, relatives, children, workmates, etc. Your supporters don't need to know everything, just enough to support your needs. In time your spouse will see where they have been negligent. <P>Take Care, <BR>L.<P>

There's always one person who will give the conflicting opinion. That would be me, in this instance. I did confront the OW. Once alone, in person, once on the phone in the presence of H, and again alone after H told me it was over but I didn't believe him. <P>It worked for me. It was incredibly empowering and cleansing. She and I are now on speaking terms, and more importantly, on the same side of the fence. She did all the apologizing and cried enough for both of us. Here are the things that made it work:<P>1) I know the OW. Was a "friend". I knew what made her tick and how to get to her. I knew what words would get to her soul and her conscience.<P>2) I studiously avoided bad-mouthing the H. I kept the conversation solely focused on her behavior and its effect on the kids (our sons are best friends). The lies H told didn't come out until many conversations later (after we'd made peace with each other). <P>She now feels like garbage. She thinks I'm a saint. She even asked me why I'd even want him back. She is no longer a threat, and my anxiety is gone. I can now focus on H and our needs as a couple.<P>My other friends think I'm nuts for having done this... they've even kiddingly threatened an intervention for me... my counselor told me it never works this way, and doesn't understand why, for now, at least, it is working. One friend even refers to my actions as "the plot of a bad Lifetime movie for women". <P>If you can confront calmly, well thought out, without screaming or threatening... it MAY be worth a try. Very risky. I repeat, very risky. Know exactly what you're up against before you battle.<P>Good luck. Only you can decide for you. Read Divorce Busting and After the Affair (tough read if you're not ready for it). Do what's right for you.<P>My prayers go out to you for strength, guidance and a few minutes of peace each day.

HI TI,<BR>Welcome to mb. Sorry you are joining this illustrious group, but a very warm aloha.<BR>Hmmm, though I know you really want to tell the OW off, send her the juiciest e-mail, and then scream, I advise against all of it. First and foremost it is a huge LB, and would damage where you are with your h. Second, it is really hard to control emotions once things get started.<BR>You see, I called, met, mailed many of the OWs. I had an experience where my 'friend' did apologize and feel bad. Does that make me feel better now? NO. The good feeling did not last long. Oh yes, I felt so superior for a little while.... <BR>For the most part the OWs lied, danced around the issues, denied, created stories, etc. <BR>Stay on the high road TI. You are doing great. Through your actions you are the better person.<BR>How do you feel abt plan b?<BR>(((((hugs))))) cl

Town Idiot:<P>Slow your pace down ... down to a real snail's pace, don't let yourself get so wound up ... it'll do you no good ... take a breather .... think calm -- otherwise -- you'll drive yourself crazy. Imagine a calm lake, you're in a cabin, relaxing with a good book, the moon is shining, and in the morning after a strong cup of java, you're out on the boat.... relaxing .... with clear thoughts, clear as the water .... don't let the losers get to you down.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cleopatra:<BR><B>TI, <P><BR>Addressing the OW is not a good idea. It will empower her which is exactly what you don't want to do. I am sure she is an insecure person with you still being in the picture. The best weapon against her is for her not to have any information. Keep her wondering. She will start nagging you H and we know men can't stand that.<P>cleo</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dear Cleo,<BR>I am so glad I read your post here! (as well as ScaredinNY,and the others who basically say the same thing). I've been struggling with this question, too, and feeling like a wimp for not contacting the OW. <P>Something instinctively inside of me said, "Don't do it!", and I'm so glad I listened to that little voice! Although I would LOVE to rip her throat out, or at least cause as much unhappiness in her marriage as she and my H have caused in mine, I opted to not contact her in any way. I can stop beating myself up now for feeling like a wimp, and believe that I am truly courageous. It takes guts to sit back quietly and 'watch' things proceed. You are soooo right! Knowledge is power, and the last thing we want to do is to give the other woman or other man any more power than they already have.<P>I started letting little things out to my H that suggest I know something, but I do not tell him the whole story. Now, I know this goes against the Harley's principles, but what's happening is that my H is now stuck in that timewarp where HE is wondering, "Just how much DOES my W know?" It is very unsettling to him, and I know it is having an adverse affect on the OW, too. I know this is probably a giant LB, but personally, I think our marriage is too far gone to be saved. The one thing I will not do is to tell him all that I DO know, and all that I have found out. but, watching him go through a bit of what I've been going through these past 8 months is a reward in itself. It just might break their bond, which is what I am hoping will happen.<P>Also, I agree with whoever said don't put things in writing (that includes email). Anything in writing can be held against you in court, so I'd keep that thought always in mind. <P>Hugs to all,<BR>Winny<P>

Well I havn't posted in awhile but I had to add my experience to this one. My H told me that OW wanted to meet ME. I think that he told me because he felt I would never agree to it. I took the initiative one day and called her unannounced and said that I thought we should meet. Apparently it scared her to death as she told H that she was afraid that I would scream at her and be violent? (don't know why she got that idea as I have never done that in my life). I intended to just tell her that I loved my H and family and that this A was going to destroy all of us including her family. And then leave.<P>As it happened, we had a huge (I mean HUGE) snowstorm the night before and we never met 'officially'. I am convinced that God stepped in and took control of the situation. By the time we did meet, I decided to make my presence known and went to office to help H, I looked like a zombie, was not eating, had lost 20 pounds etc...so I think that alone stated my case. But we never talked about anything. After seeing her, I had nothing to say. I could not believe that my H was attracted to her and in the end I think it was an A of sympathy and mutual whining, plus she is the spitting image of his mother!<P>I did talk to her H, which got back around to me in the form of a letter, which I have tucked in a safe place. She was very good at only picking out certain parts of the conversation, the ones that would force H to assure her that our relationship was poor and theirs was good. The good thing about it, is that she gave it to H in the form of questions and left holes for him to fill in (!!??) which he did. This allowed me to see just how flimsy their relationship was as he lied to her over and over in his responses. After this I realized that I did have the upper hand in this if I wanted it.<P>I think that I would find ways, quiet ways to assert your presence in their relationship if you want your H. Personal, loving gestures towards your H. In my case it was giving him a picture for his office that I made, constant reminder of me there. And I would occasionaly slip love notes into his lunch bag. No fun for her to have H reading love notes from his wife while eating lunch together. And I even went so far as to send him cards for holidays to his office knowing that she got the mail in and would have to deliver them to him. Was I being mean? NO not at all, after all he is MY H and I can do as many nice things for him as I want. And I worked on me and our relationship.<P>I did have a dream that I shot her though! Wishful thinking maybe? INn any event the best thing that you can do is ignore her as much as possible and work on you and your relationship with you H if that is what you want. Use this time apart to breath and try to see what it is that you truly want. Hopefully he will do the same.

Town, I'm dying to know, how did it go? Update please??

hi victoria,<P>Yeah, I was supposed to meet the XOW too at one point. Just for lunch. I really just wanted to get together with her and find out what my H told her about us. Well, she cancelled early that morning. I found out later that she felt that it would have been a "betrayal" of my H's "friendship." Yeah, right. Truth is, she was too chicken sh*t to face the woman whose H she'd been scr*wing. As for me, I would have had no qualms looking her right in the eye and holding my head up proud. I'm almost sorry that I never got that chance!<P>belld