My husband is in an emotional affair with a co-worker. He has not kept the friendship a secret,<BR>but has become too emotionaly intimate with this woman. I believe this is the result of a mid-life crisis combined with my failure to meet his emotional needs.<P>I am Plan A-ing with all my heart and soul and his response has been immediate and positive.<BR>This gives me the hope that I've caught this before it's too late. I have not confronted him about<BR>the affair, I am a big-time "conflict avoider" having been a victim of child abuse.<P>My current strategy is to Plan A, monitor the situation closely, and pray. So my question is, does<BR>this seem like a viable plan? Or am I fooling myself?

It depends? What do you want to confront him on? If it's the fact that he's in an EA, that would be difficult. Only people who come here seem to understand fully what that is, and how detramental they can be to a marriage.<P>How do you know for certain it's an EA? Is there some snooping involved? Or are you just going by what H has been telling you about this new 'friend'?<P>Plan Aing is always a good plan. In most respects, it's something that should have always been done (by both parties), and something that should continue, IMO.<P>Karen<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Topie25:<BR><B>It depends? What do you want to confront him on? If it's the fact that he's in an EA, that would be difficult. Only people who come here seem to understand fully what that is, and how detramental they can be to a marriage.<P>If I did confront him, it would be about the EA. But I consider this a last resort.<P>How do you know for certain it's an EA? Is there some snooping involved? Or are you just going by what H has been telling you about this new 'friend'?<P>Both actually.<P>Plan Aing is always a good plan. In most respects, it's something that should have always been done (by both parties), and something that should continue, IMO.<P>I couldn't agree more. It hurts my heart so to know that I/we have let it come to this.<P>Karen</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

I don't think I replied properly. Please excuse me. I have never posted before.<BR>Thank you for responding Topie25!

To all who are willing to help.... if you need more info on my situation, please let me know.<BR>It is hard for me to talk about this. Humiliation. Guilt. Pain. There doesn't seem to be a<BR>negative emotion that I haven't experienced in the past couple of weeks.

I'm personally torn on what you should do. The 'rule of honesty' says you should tell your H everything. But something in my gut is saying you should not say a word, b/c it could push him towards her more.<P>I can see your dilemna here. Let's say you do not tell him anything. I'll assume you will continue to 'snoop' to see the status of the A, right? Could you live with yourself knowing that you have invaded his privacy?<P>What kind of reaction do you think he would have if you told him?<P>Have you told him that his talking about her is making you suspicious that something is going on?<P>Karen<BR>

<BR>Hi gardner<P>My belief is this, if it's working keep doing it. If it's not working, do something different. You say that his response has been immediate and positive. This sounds like a step in the right direction, thus a viable plan.<P>How do you know that he has become too emotionally intimate with this w?<P>Most of the time the betrayer will deny it anyway. They will defend the ow/om. Lot's of lies. You will have a lot of time to confront him, when the timing is right. IMHO you should lay down the path for him to want you. Your marriage is what counts.<P>

I have a different thought on 'snooping'. I feel if someone doesn't want their spouce to 'snoop' then they must be hiding something. Secrets do not belong in a marriage and therefore, I do not have a problem with snooping.<P>The range of emotions you are feeling is completely normal. I too was abused as a child (in many ways) and debated on confronting him. I did (but this was way before I found this site) and he lied until confronted with proof.<P>If you are not hiding anything in how you found out, I probably not say anything for now so as to not LB and watch closely. When the situation between the two of you is much more comfortable and less likely for a lie, ask him about her in a non-judgemental way--and be prepared for the worse answer, make sure you don't scare him off from any future honesty.<P>BTW, prayer works wonders. Pray for truth. Pray for his heart. Pray for your marriage.

gardner:<P>YES, YES, YES, IT IS OK TO NOT CONFRONT!!!!<P>You are EXACTLY where I was in 1998! My H had a "too-close friendship" with a co-worker. He was 42, and I was finishing grad school. I too went into plan A and got immediate results. <P>Your strategy of Plan A, monitoring the situation closely, and praying is a perfectly good one. The only caveat I'd give you is not to "monitor" too much, i.e. snooping through e-mail and belongings, that sort of thing.<P>Keep in mind also that our former president is NOT the only person in the world who believes that if it's not the old in-out, in-out, it's not an affair. When our spouses are involved in these relationships, not only do they NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE DOING, they also do not believe that they are being in any way unfaithful. So confrontation is futile. I tried it. Didn't work. I went into therapy, which helped.<P>Ultimately, after the marriage had improved but he was still involved with the OW, I wrote him a letter, detailing very calmly and very specifically why I felt this friendship was different from other friendships he'd had with women, and why I found it so threatening. It was two pages, single-spaced, Times Roman 10 point type. I posted it here for comment, I gave it to three friends for comment, I edited it about six times. Then I left it for him with a bunch of roses and went to the movies.<P>When I got home, he was angry. He still insisted I was "accusing" him of cheating on me, that I didn't trust him, which was his mantra through the whole thing.<P>BUT I GOT THROUGH.<P>About a month later, we went to a party where the OW was in attendance, and for the first time, she treated us as a couple. No significant glances at each other, no ignoring me as if I didn't exist. She did call him at home one more time, but she at least identified herself to me, something she hadn't done before. And gradually, she faded out of the picture.<P>Gardner, keep doing what you're doing. I have been exactly where you are. If you want to email me (filmgeek55@hotmail.com), please feel free.

Thanks to all of you for responding. I'll try to clarify my situation/answer questions.<P>Why I think this is an EA/Red Flags:<BR>My instincts, which are very well developed from childhood.<BR>She is needy, he needs to give.<BR>He gets nervous and fidgety when he talks about her.<BR>He brings her up in conversation too much.<BR>They exchange cards, notes and gifts.<BR>She was very nervous when we were introduced, had trouble making eye contact.<BR>He has called her twice from home, after I had left the house.<BR>While they were out together with friends, a stranger mistook her for his wife <BR>(he thought this was funny).<P>How I have Snooped:<BR>Checking phone bill for number of calls and duration.<BR>Reading cards they have exchanged.<P>What I have Asked/Said:<BR>Nothing so far. But I'm unable to hide all of my grief, and he knows there is something<BR>bothering me, and has been more attentive.<P>How would he react to confrontation?<BR>I'm not 100% sure, but I think he would react like most do..... be angry and deny.<P>Positive/Good things:<BR>Plan A on my part is bringing us closer, he seems happier.<BR>I plan on attending any social events with my H where she will be also.<P>That's all my fevered little brain can come up with for now. Your help and opinions mean more<BR>to me right now than I can express, thank you all so much.

gardner, you already know what is going on. At the very least, there's an inappropriate attachment. Stop the snooping. All it's doing is making you crazy. Snooping gives you the illusion of control rather than actual control.<P>The Harley stuff doesn't really call for this kind of "nondisclosure Plan A", but I am telling you from experience that not only does it work, but it works very, very quickly.<P>I am reasonably certain that some attempt was made between my H and his OW to turn EA into PA while on a business trip. I do not need to know the details. I believe that the attempt either failed, or he lost his nerve, because it was when he returned from that trip that he decided we should spice up our sex life (dead giveaway clue). It is now almost 3 years later, and I do not need to know the details. All I care about is that it is OVER.<P>You are feeling angry, grieved, and you are also having to suck it all up to do this plan A stuff. It's not fun, I know.<P>If your H needs to give, then let him give to you! Sheesh! I wish mine was. My H is needy, and I have been dealing for the last year with my stepfather's illness, his death, and getting my mother's life in order. Right now my psyche is screaming, "What about me?" But his needs still come first, because that's the way it has to be.<P>I think you are doing OK. Keep it up.

IMHO, I advocate snooping. My believe is this - the more FACTS that you have...and I mean facts...then you will have know exactly what you are dealing with. If you do snoop, just be prepared for the worst. Harder said, than done, I know.<P>Does your H know that you are aware that he & OW exchange cards & gifts or if they go out together? This is inappropriate behavior. If you have the proof and he thinks that you are unaware of it, then I would suggest confronting him with this (in a calm manner). Tell him how it makes you feel. After all, shouldn't he be doing this for his wife and NOT his co-worker friend?<P>Then, Plan A your heart out!<P>If your H is acting defensive...it is because he knows that you are right.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Survivor [aka_NoTrust] (edited May 24, 2001).]

gardner, are you finding anything incriminating when you snoop? Is there amorous stuff in the cards, or are they just like birthday cards, funny cards, and things like that.<P>I never did. I never found anything inappropriate in his stuff, and when I snooped through his e-mail, I found nothing incriminating, other than just a LOT of e-mail, and stuff asking to get together for drinks. My H had just been let go from the job where he worked with OW, and I was not having an easy time with it. So he told her "I really need to rant to someone other than my wife." Ouch, but not really indicative of anything. There would be like 20 calls a month to her house, but what does that prove?<P>If your H's affair is just emotional, you are not going to find anything that he isn't going to be able to explain away, and you will just drive yourself crazy. He will accuse you of not allowing him to have friends. He will say you don't trust him, and if he is not yet in PA with this person, your expressed lack of trust will DRIVE him into it: "I have the name, I might as well play the game."<P>I disagree with No_Trust on this one, I'm afraid. She is right that he knows what he's doing is wrong, or he wouldn't be so defensive. But the more you accuse, the more defensive he will be. Where you need to get to in a case like this is to rebuild the marriage enough via Plan A so that your H is receptive to the idea that this relationship hurts your feelings. Once your feelings become important to him again, he will listen. My H was angry when I gave him that letter, but the anger didn't last, because our marriage was already pretty well on the way to healing by that point. He never admitted that he'd done anything wrong, but he did phase out the relationship with her after that.<P>We have never had a discussion about it. To this day, I don't know if he ever really understood why this bothered me, or why it was inappropriate. My H is a conflict avoider, and there's just not a whole lot I can do. What I have to rely on is the solidity of our marriage. Do I feel insecure sometimes? You bet I do. But I have to trust. I choose to trust.<P>Emotional affairs, IMHO, have to be handled differently from other kinds of affairs, because while our spouses may have some very vague sense that something they're doing is inappropriate, they also feel that if it doesn't involve sex, it's not cheating. This makes it a much tougher nut to crack than if we found someone else's underwear under the bed. I really believe that confrontation doesn't work when dealing with emotional affairs. You've expressed that it bothers you, and now you are working to make that relationship less important to him. I think you're on the right path.

Does your H know that you are aware that he & OW exchange cards & gifts or if they go out together?<P>Yes. He hasn't been very secretive about all this, which convinces me that he doesn't see anything wrong with what he's doing. Yet he sometimes goes out of his way to let me know things, which I interpret as guilt and/or self-justification.<P>gardner, are you finding anything incriminating when you snoop? Is there amorous stuff in the cards, or are they just like birthday cards, funny cards, and things like that.<P>At first their card exchanges were perfectly harmless. But in the last card he gave her he wrote "you are one of my best friends....I love you" This set off a big alarm bell for me. If she is one of his "best friends" then why hasn't she been more involved with us as a couple? I feel that at this point he feels she is a lot more than just a friend, but he's unwilling to verbalize it....YET.<BR>But if things keep progressing the way they have been, he will.<P>I can only hope and pray that Plan A works before they take the next step. And after hearing from all of you, I have decided to keep my mouth shut and my eyes wide open.

Okay...here's where I have to chime in. This is a hard one to do. I believe that your H should be confronted. However, do it in a non-lovebusting way (so hard to do). I don't think that you should shut your eyes and pretend all of this isn't happenning and hoping for the best.<P>It gives the impression that you are okay with your H's behavior.<P>Calmly, tell your H how his actions are hurting you & why. Get it out, into the open...just do it calmly and non-threatening.<P>Then, Plan A your heart out.<P>p.s. Bells & alarms are ringing when I read that you H thinks that this OW is his best friend and tells her those 3 words.....blech! He's fooling himself if he thinks that he isn't involved in some kind of affair!

My first reaction was, "Not only is it OK to avoid confrontation about the OP, it is preferred."<P>But, now I agree with survivor - with one comment. Yes, get it out in the open in as caring a way as you can. BUT, after that, don't bring it up all the time. Once you've stated your feelings, the best Plan A will avoid the topic like the plague.<P>Also, consider a session with the Harleys. They're the professionals.<P>WAT

No one is saying that you should shut your eyes and pretend nothing is going on.<P>Does your H know how uncomfortable you are with this "friendship"? Have you told him? There's a difference between not having let him know, and having told him but he chooses to believe you are being unreasonable.<P>If he knows you are uncomfortable with this, and he still chooses to do nothing, there's not a whole lot you can do other than Plan A. Because the more you confront and confront and confront, the more defensive he will get, and you will be withdrawing love units like mad. I "confronted" about 4 times, and every time I got the same thing.<P>The first confrontation was when OW left a message on our answering machine saying, "I really need to see you; I really need to talk to you." I told him that it was a bit disconcerting to have another woman leaving messages like that, and that I felt she was chasing him. His answer was "Well, she can't have me. I'm with you."<P>Then I asked the "Does This Make Me Look Fat" question:<P>"If I wasn't here, would you be with her?"<P>Never, never, never ask a man questions like this, because HE WILL NOT ANSWER IT THE WAY YOU WANT HIM TO. <P>His answer: "Probably."<P>Now, in his mind, I'm sure he was thinking that since he's never been one to chase women, if he found himself suddenly alone, he'd probably try out the one that's right underfoot. <P>In my mind, I heard "I'd rather be with her."<P>That's when the insecurity really started.<P>After that, all confrontations became a litany of "You don't trust me." "You think I'm f***ing her." "I've never cheated on you." These are all "End of conversation" statements. It wasn't until he felt better about how I was treating him, and I "confronted" him in a way (on paper) that was calm, rational, and involved no tears, that I finally got through to him.<P>Of course what your H is involved in is an affair. But he will not see it that way. Bill Clinton didn't invent hair-splitting about what constitutes infidelity. Even my own mother says that if it's not the horizontal mambo, it's not sex, and if it's not sex, it's not an affair, and she's 74.<P>You and I might recognize sexual tension as setting off alarms. Certainly when I was in a situation of being too close to a co-worker at a time when my husband was very depressed and my marriage was giving me nothing, I recognized the trouble I was heading for, and I changed jobs. Our husbands probably can't recognize this. All your H knows is that he feels good. I don't know if your H is a disciplined sort or a hedonist, but my H is a hedonist (read: immature) and he wouldn't recognize and EA if it bit him on the nose, which it did.<P>How is your communication overall with your H? Do you think you could explain to him EXACTLY WHY you feel that him saying the "three little words" to someone else is hurtful? Without tears? Write it down if you need to, but be sure you express it clearly and concisely. This is not "confronting", this is communicating. Let him know CALMLY and RATIONALLY how you feel and WHY (so he can't chalk it up to an irrational response).<P>Here is a (long) excerpt from the letter I gave my H, maybe it might help you. I'm only going to keep it posted for a short time, just on the off chance that he sees it and recognizes it.<P>----------------------------------<BR>As you probably already know, I have not been able to be detached and objective about your friendship with OW. You and I have never been able to discuss this, primarily because it is such an emotional subject for me. I haven't been able to express rationally how I feel, because it IS a question of emotion -- and I know how much it upsets you when I break down. Therefore, the situation stews and we don't communicate about it. I have been in an almost constant state of anxiety about this to one degree or another, not knowing what to do or what to say.<P>When we last spoke about this, I said that I felt there were some areas in which I had let you down over the years in terms of putting our marriage first, and that I wanted to change that situation. I've worked hard at it, and I think, and hope, that I've achieved at least some modest success in meeting more of your needs. This is one reason why I always ask you how I'm doing. If there's something I can do that helps make things even better between us, I want to do what's necessary to achieve that result. Talk to me. Let me know how I'm doing -- either way.<P>One thing I have not been able to get past is my feeling that I am constantly in a competition with OW for your affections; that if I don't react to something in the way you want or need, you will go running to her for solace. I've done a lot of thinking to try and determine why I feel this way, and what it is about this particular individual that is different from, other women friends you've had, and why I feel so threatened. <P>One reason is that "Does this make me look fat?" question I asked last winter, that if I wasn't here would you be with her, and you said yes. I agree that it was one of those questions that shouldn't be asked, because you really don't want the answer. I wonder if this is just one of those things where men and women think differently. Perhaps you meant, "Yeah, she's nice, and if I was single I would probably date her", but the way I heard it was "If I wasn't stuck with you, I could be with her" -- perhaps not an accurate interpretation of your answer<P>OW has made little effort to acknowledge my role in your life, or even my presence, and I have seen no sensitivity in her to the issues involved in being friends with a man who is married. When we had the barbecue in June, it bothered me a lot (and I told you this at the time) that you and she were going to go up to OUR bedroom -- alone -- to see the cats. I know you didn't think about how it looked, but try to put the shoe on the other foot. Ask yourself how you would feel in a similar situation involving me taking a male friend who similarly ignored your role as my spouse, into a room in our home -- alone -- where a yard full of people could notice us leave, and closing the door behind us. <P>You say that OW speaks highly of me. How? She doesn't even know me. She's made no attempt to know me. Perhaps it's only that you've said nice things about me, but based on how she's been when I am with you and her, I feel that she views me as merely the obstacle that stands between the two of you being together -- an obstacle to be somehow gotten out of the way.<P>Opposite-sex friendships while married take place on treacherous ground. What makes one friendship "OK" and another one "not OK"? Ultimately, it's the comfort level of the spouse, and thus far I haven't been able to get around the fact that OW's presence causes me profound discomfort. <P>I do not want to be a jealous, possessive spouse, and I have wrestled for months with how best to deal with my feelings. In fact, this is one (of a number of) reasons I sought counseling. I take some small comfort in the fact that I am not unique in this respect, and that most women would struggle similarly, when faced with such a situation.<P>I want to be fair to you, and I understand the business relationship that you have with OW. But I have sat on so much emotion and so much anxiety regarding this issue, not wanting to interfere in your life, not wanting to come across as a jealous, possessive nut, wondering what is the "right" thing to do. It is both my pleasure and my responsiblity, as your wife, to be your support system in times both good and bad. My problem is that I feel as if OW is a sword of Damocles dangling over my head, and that she is waiting in the wings so that if I falter, however slightly, in those efforts, she is ready to step in and take my place. <P>It is very difficult to stand by and watch while someone who is supposedly just his friend is so blatantly chasing your spouse, and to watch your spouse be so flattered by the attention. In the past, you have taken offense at my fears, that it means I don't trust you. That's not what it means; not at all. But I don't think anyone of either sex, could watch this kind of flirtation between a spouse and another person and not feel that at the very least, it's somewhat insensitive.<P>I do not want to keep you in a cage, I am not trying to keep you from having friends. But this IS different from a friendship with a guy, and I am at a loss as to how to deal with it in a way that is fair to both of us. I don't know what's real and what isn't anymore. Perhaps you can help. Perhaps we can both open up and discuss it honestly -- no more secretiveness, no more hiding -- so that we can get past this problem once and for all.<BR>--------------------------------------------------------<BR>Unfortunately, we never did have that discussion, but I did get through.<P>Maybe this will help you crystallize your feelings so that you can express them similarly to your H. Simply waving cards under his nose is NOT going to accomplish anything. It's important to convey the following ideas:<P>1) I'm aware of my responsibility in this marriage<BR>2) I'm aware that I haven't met your needs and I want to change that, and I'm working on that.<P>If you get those ideas up front, you lessen the "accusatory" tone of the discussion.<P>

I agree worthatry...confront in a non-lovebusting way, calmly express how this so-called friendship hurts you, but don't keep bringing it up, over & over & over again. That will truly drive your H away.<P>DazedandConfused...I agree with you on communication. Communicate! Communicate! Communicate...but in a non-confrontational, loving way.<P>(It's unfortunate that many believe that just because the relationship wasn't consumated, that means that an affair didn't exist. You know...I used to believe that until I joined the Marriage Builders site.)<P>Whew! Gardner...this will be hard, but it can be done. Can you call the Harley's for advice? I hope that anyone out there, who has counseled with the Harley's, and has dealt with this similar situation, will let you know what the Harley's advised.

Survivor: "Bells & alarms are ringing when I read that your H thinks that this OW is his best friend and tells her those 3 words.....blech!"<P>I hear you. When I read those words I literaly became sick to my stomach. It was like someone had hit me in the gut with a sledge hammer.<P>To Dazed and Confused: Thank you for sharing your letter. It capsulizes a lot of my feelings and helps a lot in putting things in perspective.<P>About telling him how I feel about this "friendship"<BR>I know I can do this without anger, without accusation, in a loving way. But two things are stopping me right now: <BR>1) I don't think I can do this without becoming emotional. By that I mean breaking down into tears. My feelings are so raw right now. I need to get some control over this.<BR>2) I'm terrified that bringing this out in the open will push him towards her even more.<P>This is incredibly frustrating! I am not normaly a cowardly person, or a doormat. I guess I just need to get myself under control a little better and wait for the right moment. I think I'll go take a long walk and scream and cry and kick a few trees and do whatever else I need to release all this pent-up garbage.<P>Does anyone have advice on how to prepare oneself for this? There's no easy answer right? <BR>It's a hard, hard thing to do and I just have to be brave enough to do it.

Think of it this way, and maybe it will help you to confront him:<P>What is the worst case scenerio if you do confront him?<P>What is the worst case scenerio if you do NOT confront him?<P>IMO, the answer to both of those questions is the same. The worst case scenerio is that he will push away from you and closer to her.<P>With that in mind, your best course of action is to confront him. Let it out in the open. Ideally, he'll see the light of day, and come out of the fog immediately because he's been 'found out'. Even if that doesn't happen, you still have us here to support you. Whatever the result, keep coming here and updating and learning.<P>Take care!<P>Karen<BR>