Went to marriage counselor.<P>Husband singing same song of not wanting to be married at all. Never wanted to be married. Just went along with it because I was nice and we seemed like good partners.<P>Well now that he's got OW and our partnership hasn't been all that great the last 5-6 yrs. (NOT awful, just not great). He wants out.<P>Not wanting to rebuild. Counselor will meet with us separately next week. She's not sure which direction our counseling will go. <P>Meanwhile I am going crazy. I hurt so bad it is physical. I am on the edge of a major explosion. I came home after counseling to go to really long meeting where I had lots of time to brew anger and resentment. I came home MAD. And cranked at him. "Why can't you acknowledge that I am mad and hurt?" I ask. He doesn't understand the question.<P>At the counselor he said I want my family, but I don't want to be married. (Counselor raised an eyebrow on that one.)<P>I keep asking him what kind of relationship he envisions with me. He says "co-parent." "civil." (Like I've been uncivil, yet.) I WANT TO BE UNCIVIL. I want to yell and scream and throw things. I want my life back. <P>------------------<BR>See each day as a new beginning!<P>Cali

Consider yourself hugged and squeezed for a long, long time...

just know that you are not alone, hugs & prayers

Be patient and hang in there, <P>

Hi Cali. Our stories are so similar... You are where I was just 3 weeks ago. I am so sorry to hear your pain, I lived it as well. I was even suicidal at that point in my life, I hope/pray that you do not feel that way as well (still am occassionally - trying to get better). It is a horrendous feeling. Big hugs.<P>Your husband is probably going to keep saying that stuff as long as OW is around (mine did and still does say those things). You're not going to be able to fix your marriage while OW is still around and your husband still wants her. I'm not saying stop going, I think marriage counseling helped my husband grip reality a little better. What you can also hope is that marriage counseling helps your husband realize this as well and he will dump OW to work things out with you.<P>I'm not really sure if we've moved forward, but at least my husband is not with OW anymore and is in withdrawal. It seems like that is a step in the right diretion. Oh, he still wants to leave and doesn't want to work on the marriage (stopped counseling even), but at least he is not with HER anymore and he is still here for now.<P>Stick with it and live each day as it comes. It is really the ONLY thing you can do. It sucks, but hopefully we'll both pull through.

Thanks all!<BR>My emotions were so surface yesterday and I didn't have time to deal with them before I had to deal with life. So I came home from a STUPID meeting really late and angry.<P>hurtbyhubby: You wrote:<BR><B><BR>Stick with it and live each day as it comes. It is really the ONLY thing you can do. It sucks, but hopefully we'll both pull through.</B><P>Don't you ask yourself why do they stay? I've even suggested he leave. I've asked when he's going to leave. Yet they stay. Or, get mad and say "Oh, now that you say I can leave, I can leave?" <P>Do you wonder if plan b would work? Frankly it terrifies me. I'm not sure which is worse. Him here pining for her. or not here. (would he pine for me?) <P>He is so disconnected from me and what I am feeling. The counselor noticed it right away. How can you get past that brick wall?<P>Thanks again. <BR><P>------------------<BR>See each day as a new beginning!<P>Cali

Wish I knew all the answers Cali, but boy do I feel for you. Big Hugs from the other side of the country {{{{{{InShockinCali}}}}}}}}. Hang in there and give it time. Let it ride. You have the upper hand. As I said to hurt hubby, let him shoulder being the bad guy, (and he's doing it so well), try to keep your head.

hang in there Cali! You can see my long arduous story in my reply to hurtbyhubby. Our stories are similar in that our Hs are wanting out of their marriage. ( but not really!) I think mine likes the idea of the escape and not having to deal with the withdrawal and guilt. And make changes that would make our marriage better. I wish my H would move out again till he gets ahold of his mind better but he wont because his attorney told him its considered abandonment in our state of the kids. He was gone for 3 wks in March and didnt know that then. I just take things day by day. My H is 42 and having major mid life crisis. I think I am a frequent target just because of his comfort level with me and I'm closeby! My H has said all sorts of crazy things to me such as- "I have no feelings for you and dont know if I can get them back.", "I cant kiss you because its like as if you asked me to go kiss the next door neighbor.", "I dont like spending time with you.", " I'd be doing you a favor if we divorced! LOL", and of course his line when he confessed- "I figured our marriage was over in my head and I know you'll never be able to forgive me so I"m leaving you!" Well its 3 mo later and he's still here. Go figure! I stay in a Plan A even when he's cranky. He told the therapist 2 wks ago that he was even irritated by my doing nice things for him and that he doesnt feel like reciprocating so now I do a DILUTED plan A! Its gone better since then. Last wk he was more willing to cooperate at therapy. I have learned not to take him too seriously. He is acting alot like my moody teenage daughter these days! Today is our 15 yr anniversary. Hopefully we will make it to the next one! As my mom says, " He knows the road outta here!" LOL But she urges me to keep him around thru the summer as he's great at doing the yard work! lifeismessy

My thoughts and prayers are with you...I'm in the same boat right now. He's MISERABLE and I'm hanging on to the hopes of PLAN A although each minute of every day is a struggle.

Let him go and see what it is like without you. Do you really have another option that will bring him closer? No, the tighter you hang on, the faster he will slip through your fingers. Let him go, tell him you love him and wish with all your heart that it didn't have to be this way, that you are willing to work on the marriage and change the things that were your contribution to the deterioration of the marriage and then go about doing exactly that, work on you!<P>He will not change his mind by being coerced to continue living together or go to counseling he really doesn't want to go to. For those things to have a positive effect he has to see them as positive and right now he doesn't.You can't change his perception. Let OW meet all his needs (then his perception of her and you will change),be "civil" but do not attempt to be his cake, as he will have a greater chance of coming home for good the faster he sees that the grass isn't greener with OW.<P>If your kids are old enough to protest visits with dad and don't want to go with him, don't force them. He wants his family and if he gets a good look at the havoc divorce will reek on his family he'll think twice before he goes all the way with divorce.Let him work out all the details of arrangements to visit the kids if they want to do that and are of the age to have a say in the matter. He wants this then he needs to be the responsible party to make it happen. Do not make it harder for him, but do not make it easier for him either or he won't learn the lesson you want him to learn as fast as you'd like him to learn it.<P>My H did all this same stuff, he wasn't out of the home more than 2 months and says now it was the saddest experience of his life and gets tears in his eyes remembering.Things here are better than ever. You must present yourself as strong and capable even when you feel like you are dying inside. Strong and capable will get his attention more than weak and falling apart.<P>I'd be happy to elaborate on exactly the steps I took if you are interested. I didn't follow MBers to a T but had wonderful results using a mix of tough love and Harley techniques.

Please mthrrhbard!<BR><B><BR>I'd be happy to elaborate on exactly the steps I took if you are interested. I didn't follow MBers to a T but had wonderful results using a mix of tough love and Harley techniques.</B><P>I would love to know the direction you took!<P><P>------------------<BR>See each day as a new beginning!<P>Cali

I had exactly the opposite experience. The longer my H was out of the home, the deeper the OW sunk her hooks into him, the more obligated he felt toward her, especially after he lost his job and she was supporting him at least in part. From my experience, the more important his family was to him, the harder the OW will try to separate him from his kids. If the OW has any money, count on her financing the divorce. <P>You can not assume that he will care how divorce affects the kids. That would be assuming that his decisions have a rational basis, and that is rarely the case. <P>My advice would be to avoid having him leave if you have any choice in the matter.

A man either loves his kids enough to put them above another woman or he doesn't. That is something that BS cannot change. Some men will forsake their kids for OW others won't. For someone on the outside to say which one is more likely, is like a crap shoot. I wouldn't begin to tell you, Cali which your own H might be, only you know that. Even if you might be wrong about it, you are the only one who could have even the foggiest notion of how his kids will effect him. You have to decide that one for yourself.<P>What I did. Well first off( at the recommendation of my MC) I told H "I" needed time to think and went off to the mountains for 4 days alone to get myself together. H for the first time in his life had to manage 3 kids by himself for 4 days. This happened about a month after d-day. I kept getting the "I don't want to be married" story and he also said it wasn't about OW anymore (she was out of the picture and he still waffled)and just didn't want to stay married. I heard exactly what lifeismessy heard....."The marriage was over in my head and I know you would never forgive me, so I need to leave". Through everything they need to see that you forgive them because they HONESTLY believe that what they have done is unforgivable and that you'll hold it over their heads forever and that truly would lead to a miserable existence.<P>When I returned it was the same story, though he made no concrete plans to go. It absolutely killed me to live in limbo land. He had to make up his mind as I had a life to lead with him or without him and I wasn't willing nor able(emotionally) to to wait indefinitely for him to make up his mind. I also felt deep inside that I didn't want him hanging on out of obligation, I would have rather been alone. I wanted to be his first choice not his second. I also felt that if we did not separate for awhile, so that he could get a taste of the life he "said" he wanted so badly, that I ran an almost certain risk that we would face this situation again somewhere down the road because he would have never found out what his "dream" was in reality. I could not bear the thought of going through something like this again. So........when I came back and he was still waffling I told him he had to go until he could make up his mind, because it was too difficult for me to hold it together for the kids and be emotionally stable with him in the house not being able to decide if he was coming or going. So he went.<P>He was miserable for the most part but being alone gave him lots of time to think and he used the time away wisely and stayed in counseling on his own. My kids never wanted to go stay with him and he absolutely hated that. However, he wasn't willing to insist that the kids come see him because he knew this was his deal and they shouldn't have to suffer or be uncomfortable. So he spent a lot of time here in which I was nice and civil and let him know how much I wished things could be different. He tried to suck me into doing things for him to make his life easier but I let him handle it all on his own. I essentially plan A'd during this time and it had a better effect on him because it wasn't smack dab in his face day in and day out causing his guilt to run wild. He was able to see how good he had had it because he wasn't becoming resentful of my Plan A behaviors. WS can become resentful of Plan A behaviors because their guilt overcomes them when we are being so nice and understanding.That is a risk of prolonged Plan A with an unrepentent WS living in the same house. If they get sick of our Plan A behaviors, those behaviors in essence become LBs and can do more harm than good. All this of course is MHO.<P>Another thing I did that had a huge wake up call effect on H was to go to a support group for divorced,separated and widowed parents, Parents without Partners. I told H that if I was going to parent alone I needed support from those who knew exactly what my situation was like. Well anyone with half a brain can figure out that this is a lonleyhearts club. H didn't like the idea that someone else might find me interesting in my vulnerable state. I liken H's response to that of a child who has a long lost, much ignored toy stored away in a toybox. He hasn't played with his toy in months and months and couldn't care less about it, although at one time it was the light of his life. When the new kid on the block comes along and all of a sudden finds that toy wonderful and interesting then all of a sudden it's "my toy" and you can't have it. When H was faced with the reality, that if he didn't act on repairing his marriage, someone else would find me desirable enough to take his place, he realized he had to do something. Mind you, this type of action can easily appear as though you are playing head games and you never want it to become that or appear as such.In my case I simply legitimized it by stating that I had to have support and that was something he could not argue with and had to accept since he was the one leaving and unwilling to rebuild.<P>I will say that now 20 months later I have a husband I only dreamed of having before this all happened. He is a different man and I feel cherished for the first time in my marriage. He knows exactly what life would be like without me and his kids, he doesn't ever have to wonder about that anymore and frankly I find that very reassuring. I will never take him for granted ever again. He talks now as if it was all a nightmare and has changed an incredible amount and has shown me on a daily basis that his new and improved behaviors are just as reliable as mine. Sometimes we have to let them go to be assured they are truly ours and that we are the ones we want to be with. Some BS are willing to accept their WS back at any cost, I wasn't and could not live my life knowing my H felt he was a caged bird. He's here willingly now and the difference in him is well worth the risks I took. OH and did I say I was scared out of my mind..........

WOW!<BR><B> OH and did I say I was scared out of my mind.......... </B><P>You are very brave. I'm not sure I am all that courageous. But I am going to get that way. We had big discussion tonight based on what I overheard him telling his uncle.<P>Basically, he is not leaving his family. He is staying until we are financially stable and in a house. (This could take awhile ) I am supposed to live in limboland, because we will not be husband and wife. (But got very upset when I asked him should I take off my rings and would I also be free to see other people.)<P>I am scared about the finances. We haven't done well to save for the summer (we're teachers) and it will be difficult. Of course, he will have a harder time than I, because I have been teaching longer and make more $$$. I do have a possibility of a lucrative consulting job. If that job comes through, he is out of here. I will be solvent and able to make it without him.<P>Otherwise, I am considering calling my dad and asking for help. Limboland just doesn't seem that attractive. <P>Thanks mthrrhbard and everyone else. Your input has been invaluable.<BR><P>------------------<BR>See each day as a new beginning!<P>Cali

Dear Cali,<P>What mthrrhbard said is all very true. While this is not a guarantee for everyone, I did almost everything she did. I even left H to take care of our son for 3 1/2 days while I went on a company sponsered cruise. It was fun!! <P>At first I tried to do what I believed was plan A. It bought me santity time but eventually limbo land was getting old. Too much waffling and being blamed for every time H & OW broke up was just making me tired. H actually said he could continue in this crazy pattern. He even was pushing both of us to force him to make a decision and yet fough hard not to make one himself. Says he was confused. More like wanted his cake and eat it 2. <P>Anyway, it finally got down to my needs, needing to be met and needed it big time. I was being worn out financially and OW would go for the ride and was trying to drive us both insane. Her antics of push me pull me were psycotic. <P>H had moved out about 1 month after d/d. I couldn't stop him so I let him, knowing it was a matter of time before he had to move in with someone because he could not afford to live out on his own and pay his bills (credit cards, back taxes, etc.). Note: these were his bills not the family expenses. <P>While out there H would try to act like he was in control of his life but he was always showing up at our door and then going to OW. More waffling. I had to put my foot down and told him no contact except for son's visitation arrangements, pick up his mail and give me money to pay his bills. <P>Knowing he was being a bad father, he even said it in front of our son and reading son's thoughts (4 sentence letter - not bad for a 6 year old) along with son's piercing comments, H knew he could not live with OW and her terms. He came home after 2 months of plan B. <P>I firmly believe that if they are in waffle land they are trying to convince themselves to leave the family but there is too much invested (in their feelings, memories, time and love) to just give it all up. But those feelings created from teh A are also very strong and the fight is a real one. <P>I told my H, I would not be anything less than #1. If he wanted multiple women in his life, he needed to leave and when he did, he no longer had his family as an option. I said what I meant and meant what I said. I learned that piece of wisdom from my dad. Good ol' dad. Boy this became a life saver for me and for H. He is still struggling, we are not as far along as mthrrhbard (only 3+ weeks) but there is constant improvement. I am actually waiting for something to go wrong. <P>Mthrrhbard am I being paranoid? How long did it take to get over those untrusting feelings? H knows he is not meeting my needs yet, even told OW. She still calls and while he ignores most of her calls he has talked to her at least once each week so far. The calls from what I understand are getting less in length but I still hurt when I hear about them.<P>Cali, I can't tell you what to do. I can tell you to respect yourself. You will know when you have had enough of the roller coaster. It is not something anyone can make you do. Unfortunately, not even logic will make you do things faster than your mind and heart will allow. <P>Get to know yourself and try to clearly determine what you want out of your life. If you see yourself with your H, then that is what you work towards but not at the expense of demeaning or demoralizing yourself. Also, you can not control your H, he needs to come to terms with that himself. Unless he truly wants his family back, it can be a futile gesture on his part and the waffling will begin again. Each time they appear to come back and leave will be painful for all. If possible work for the permanent comeback. Make sure they appreciate you. That was the one thing H would say. Not that he loved me but that he appreciated all that I was doing and how well I was doing it. Hmmmmph. A bit of a slow learner my H but hope he eventually gets it. <P>Take Care, <BR>L.<BR>

Wow i enjoyed coming back to this post today and reading motherhubbard's story that was so simliar to mine. I also used a combo of Harley and tough love with my H. My H waffles back and forth emotionally every 2 wks or so. ( we're 3 mo past d-day and OW moved away but its an emotional weakness he has for OW) and also he thinks its so much easier to divorce than try to repair our marriage and deal with his guilt. One thing I do reccommend to you is that you talk frankly with him about what YOU would do if he divorces you. I tell my H if you divorce me against my will, YOU will be telling the kids the whole reasons why and I will be going for MAIN custody not joint and moving away from here and starting my life over with someone else!!( we moved here a year ago for his job transfer so I have no relatives or ties here really). At first he really didnt believe I would do this.( he has seen me as weak and way too dependent on him over the years) But now that I have convinced him he seemed to be more willing to stay in counseling with me. I tell him often that divorce is against God's will and all the reasons it is not right. I have found that OW had turned him against me BIGTIME during this past year. She knew me personally and convinced him that I was not a good wife. So I suggest you be very firm when he brings up divorce. I then go pray about it- I love the book The Power of a Praying Wife. It has great prayers in it for troubled marriages. Take care- lifeismessy

Hey again.<P>I know what you mean about OW turning H against you. He tells me he doesn't allow it, but I found an email where she wrote how I was trying to control him.<P>Another person called her to ask if she were having an affair with my H. She lied and said no, but then called H all upset. He immediately called me and asked why I was talling people! (I had not divulged name, I still don't know how this person found out.) I think he believed me.<P>The email I found said I would only tell people as a way to control him if he stayed. You know I was such a big person to take him back. I want to should that my telling people is about MY PAIN and not about him or them at all. It's talk or explode!<P>Further, he used my cell to call her yesterday. (I have her numbers saved as TKB (The <OW> B****) and TKB CELL. Guess he found them. So she called his cell using her H's phone. Silly head games. <P>Meanwhile nothings changed on the homefront. Saw Dr. He prescribed Celexa. (Anyone know this one?). Dr. is also H's dr. wanted to call him in to talk to him. I discouraged him, but said H needed a physical. That's all I need is for one more person to tell him he's wrong. <P><P>------------------<BR>See each day as a new beginning!<P>Cali