I'm thinking a little bit more about plan A. (what's new there? lol). <P>In most cases (I presume), confronting the WS on lies is an LB, right? Well, it is in my situation for sure.<P>The Harley principles suggest openness and honesty at all times.<P>Plan A has a huge part involving avoiding LB's at all costs.<P>Which way do we go? <P>Here's the situation I have in mind at present. H will be dropping by later on this evening for a bit. He says he is going someplace to see about getting a loan. I don't believe him. I think he's out to meet a new woman in person. According to the principles, I should be open and honest with H, and tell him my feelings. But to do that would be an LB, which I have to avoid b/c I'm in plan A (and H is out of the house).<P>Any thoughts?<P>Karen<BR>

Hey Karen:<P>Regarding:<BR><B><BR>Here's the situation I have in mind at present. H will be dropping by later on this evening for a bit. He says he is going someplace to see about getting a loan. I don't believe him. I think he's out to meet a new woman in person. According to the principles, I should be open and honest with H, and tell him my feelings. But to do that would be an LB, which I have to avoid b/c I'm in plan A (and H is out of the house).<BR></B><P>Specifically "I don't believe him." Are you speculating or have you caught him in a lie? Tone of voice has a lot to do with whether it is an LB or not. Much of what I have said to H could go either way. But, I have been careful (most of the time ) to use "I" statements and to be very careful of judgemental or critical tone of voice. <P>For example: (If you even have to bring it up...)<BR> "I am having difficulty believing that you were really seeing a person about a loan." It is open and honest, but not critical or judgemental. You are owning your feelings and beliefs.<P>Otherwise, unless you KNOW it is lie why bring it up? <P><P>------------------<BR>See each day as a new beginning!<P>Cali

That's the only example I could think of at the time.. it's that situation that got me on this train of thought. <P>Yes, I am speculating about tonight. I don't really plan on bringing it up, nor do I intend to tell him that I don't believe he was seeing someone about a loan.<P>But what about in general? Let's say you have hard evidence that WS was lying, and you're in plan A working hard not to LB. Should you just let it go in order to keep on depositing love units?<P>Karen<BR>

My opinion on that is yes. I think while in plan A it is more important not to LB than to be totally open and honest with each other(which you know isn't going to happen when they're in the fog anyway-on their part). I think the open-honest part comes in more when there's committment to the relationship on both partners sides.<BR>\I would bite my tounge about the loan.

Okay, then "ideally" we continue to deposit love units into WS love bank. If we catch them in lies (let's say, by snooping), we do not confront them. Nor do we bring it up. We work hard on not LBing (although because we're human, it is quite possible that it will happen on occassion).<P>As the lies (or just plain sitting on the fence) continue, it depletes our love banks. It's when it gets to such a low point, that we move on to plan B.<P>Again, "ideally", WS will see the errors in their ways before plan B needs to be implemented. And the recovery begins.<P>Now that I've actually typed it out, I'm seeing things much more clearly now. Thanks.<P>Karen<BR>

That's how I understand it to be! Godd luck with no LBing.You and I will both need it in this roller coaster ride!

Sometimes I think I will have to have the tip of my tongue put back on I have biten it so hard & often

I went somewhere in the middle. Some things I just bit my tongue like inconsistencies in things he said. Other times, like when he tried to tell me he had never been involved with the OW except as a friend I simply said "I just want you to know that I don't beleive that to be true" and then I would drop it. I could have totally busted him in so many lies and calle dhim on the carpet for so many things. But since I wanted to work on the marraige I couldn't focus on that. Which is why I never went after concrete proof of the affair while it was going on.

Karen - yes, you've got it. It is very, very, very hard not to react when you know something is a lie. Of course, it's a bigger LB to react to a statement that you thionk is a lie, but really isn't. In 11 months of Plan A, I have not perfected a way to distinguish truth from lies, so I assume everything is suspect and have tried to get in the habit of biting my tongue for at least a split second to keep from reacting at all. But we also have to try to control body language when we're together. Simply raising our eyebrows can be as bad as loose lips.<P>WAT

I am relieved to hear you are all having the same problem--it drives me crazy when my gut feeling (based on plenty of experience) tells me I am being lied to again. So does everyone agree, while you are in Plan A, it is better to let an actual lie go than to risk confrontation about a suspicion that turns out to be a false alarm? I was thinking I could handle lies about phone and email contact, but now a possibility of physical contact has me in a tizzy. H has to go to some wild extremes to meet up with OW here--we are overseas working and she is going to be in the same country (though working elsewhere) and H has plans that may put him in contact (and perhaps in a hotel room?!) with her next week. That is one more 'last straw' for me..should I let it go? I COULD be wrong, but I doubt it, every time I've ever suspected something, it's turned out to be true. It would be very easy for me to confirm dates/times of their being in the same place, but... Plan A means letting go of the old patterns and trusting...or opening the door to trust being rebuilt, right? octavia99

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by octavia99:<BR><B>Plan A means letting go of the old patterns and trusting...or opening the door to trust being rebuilt, right? octavia99</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, plan A means letting go of the old patterns.. but IMO, I do not believe it means trusting. I believe that the issue of trust cannot be dealt with until BOTH parties (BS and WS) are ready to work on the marriage. And even then, Harley suggests that you never fully trust your spouse.<P>For all of us on here, think back. What happened when you blindly trusted your mate? (or were blindly trusted by your mate). <P>I'm just having a difficult time trying not to LB, but in order to do that, I have to take the lies. I'm afraid, and I know, that by taking the lies, that only gives H more reason to continue in his fantasy world. Yet I do not want to LB.. but in my situation anyways, it's the LBing that pulls H back into reality. And then I think, ok, how about some little LBs?? But then I start thinking of this whole mess as a game. I don't want to play this game anymore.<P>Alas.. here we experience the state of confusion ourselves, and in my case, far too much over-analyzing!! <P>Karen<BR>

I know what you mean about the whole thing starting to feel like a game--and I often wish these days I could press a "restart" button and escape the whole situation. And I don't have the slightest bit of trust for my H at this point, I was just wondering if one has to give the WS the benefit of the doubt sometimes to avoid LB. I just did the opposite and the result was awful and totally ironic. We are doing work overseas until July, the OW will be in the same country soon (if she is not already) on another project. H wants to go to a city where he will almost certainly have the opportunity of meeting her, so I am really upset about that. Today, he suddenly wanted to buy a mobile phone, I believe to facilitate communication with the OW while she is in the country. So, we just returned to our flat after a six hour drive through the desert in 114o heat and an hour of unloading equipment, and he takes off for the market and is gone for four hours. He returned, mobile phone in hand, I figure he has probably already used it to call her. But I didn't LB, for one whole hour...until the phone rang and H looked panicky, said "who could be calling me? Let it ring..." I answer the phone, there is a pause and then a hang up. OW has phoned the flat in this country and did a series of hang-up calls to our home in the States (whenever it was my voice and not hubby's on the line). So, naturally I assume this was her trying to reach him. I asked calmly, gee, I wonder who that could have been? Maybe the store checking to see if the number is working? We chat a bit and H says, "Spit it out, what are you getting at?" So I tell him I'm worried that the old b.s. is starting again and I really don't want to have to be afraid to answer my own telephone. Big LB!!! H rages, tells me he's had it, it's none of my business any longer who he sees or calls, etc. Then leaves apt. with mobile telephone. So, ironically, the call seems to have been a call-back from Customer Service from hitting a button (so he says), but in any event, he now has "justification" from my LB to go ahead and call her now, even if he hadn't before. So in this case, I suppose I should've bitten my tongue like everyone says. But, like you say, I don't want to enable him to continue living the fantasy thing, so if he really is going back to feeling "justified" in pursuing the A again, how can I possibly not let him know I cannot endure that game any longer? Is it too much to expect that maybe just from time to time, he might allay my fears instead of reacting defensively? octavia99