After going to the counselor Wed. alone and talking with my husband the last few days I realize some things.<P>My husband has a real problem. The counselor believes the reason my husband had an EA was because he was "upping the ante". Throughout our time together my husband has had bowts of depression where he will push everything and anyone he loves away from him. The first time was when we were going out 10 years ago. <P>"pushing everyone away" means being as mean and callous as possible to the person so they will leave him. I, of course, never budged when these things occurred and always stayed strong in my love for him. Afterwards he would feel really horrible and say how much he loved me and how sorry he was, the first time it happened he even cried in my arms.<P>However, the last 2 years, the bowts have gotten more common . At first he would say he didn't love me to try to push me away, then it was another women that he liked in November but broke off contact with immediately, then it was the EA just a few weeks ago. The counselor told me he thinks my husband will just keep "upping the ante" until I leave him. He wanted me to think about how much I was willing to put up with...<P>Nowadays he's just really depressed and keeps saying how horrible he is, how much better off the kids and I are without him. He is making plans to leave us. I tell him the bowts are going to continue for the rest of his life unless he gets help (he has confirmed this by "pushing away" both his OW and my daughter this past time he was depressed. So, IT'S NOT JUST ME!). But, alas, he is just adamant about not getting help. He says he will not find anyone else because he will just ruin their lives, he ruins the lives of everyone he loves. He will just live in misery. <P>He says he just doesn't want me anymore, he doesn't love me, he doesn't like me. I ask him why and he says cuz' he is a horrible person. Then I ask, well do you really not like me or is it just because you feel you are horrible. He says, it doesn't matter, they both mean the same thing. In other words, he is just trying to hurt me to push me away AGAIN. As usual. But I never really know...<P>Then I tell him, okay, leave for a while, but just leave the option open that one day, you may possibly feel like changing yourself, getting help, and being the wonderful and caring man you once were. You gets real mad and says "no, I am never going back. Even if I have those feelings, I will never go back. It is over." And I believe him.<P>I have no more hope. I can't plan A, I can't plan B because they do not help my situation. I feel like I don't want to go on.

I am sorry you are in such pain. The only thing I can say is after reading your husband's history of depression, i feel that sometimes you have to let this type of person go. To see the REALITY of it all. You can never help someone who does not want to help themselves. I know this is not what you want to hear, but your H sounds like he is manic depressive (not that I can diagnose anyone), but from what you have said of his past it sounds like he needs medication and is not willing to do anything about it. The only thing that he will do is sink further and further and unless you want you and your daughter to go down with the ship then I think it is time for you to save yourself. Sometimes people have to hit rock bottom b4 they actually GET IT. And by you enabling your H, he is never going to get it.

Manic depression runs in his family. I am pretty sure this is what he has as well. I have no experience in this area. My gut tells me I need to be there for him, to help him through the rough times, convince him eventually to get help. I know when he allows me in I do comfort him and make him feel a little better.<P>I am not keeping him at home. I tell him if he needs to go, go. What kills me is that he says once that happens that he is NEVER coming back, no matter if it is the right thing to do or not. He's not going to put his family through this pain again. I don't feel like I can deal with that especially now that I'm pretty convinced it's a medical condition.<P>Anybody have any experience with manic depression and can you share it with me?<P>Thanks.<P>

Hey hurt,<P>Hang in there. My sister was forced into hospitalization twice for her bi-polar (manic/depression) diagnosis. She attempted to hurt herself.<P>As long as she takes her meds she is fine. All you can do is encourage him to get help. You really also need to focua on yourself and make sure you are strong. It is hard when the one we love is hurting and won't seek help (I believe my H is also in a form of depression/mid-life crisis.) <P>Stay strong, one of you needs to be.<P><P>------------------<BR>See each day as a new beginning!<P>Cali

Manic depression is also known as bipolar disorder...you would likely find more on it if you search with that term. This long tortuous thread has a couple of posts about it on page 7...let me direct you there:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/004221-7.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum8/HTML/004221-7.html</A>

hurtbyhubby:<P>Any possibility that your husband go to a psychiatrist for an evaluation? I know they first have to realize that they have a problem, and 2nd want to do something about it.<P>My H (unexpected, all the sudden) one day told me he had an apt., was moving, and left. I was going crazy because I didn't know what was going on? I thought H had lost his mind. H's behavior was hateful, nasty towards me. H had become extremely irritable the previous couple of months. I think he was going through a conflict within himself and lashing out in anger because of it. <P>It only seemed to get worse every time I talked to him, it was like he did a complete 190 degree turn downward, a totally different person. I made an appointment with a psychiatrist for him, it was a month away. As I talked to him it appeared to get worse, so I called and got another Dr. and got an appointment elsewhere sooner. H said he would go. Than he told me one day he had went to another one himself that day and would still go to the other appointments. H said he would go to all 3. Now what's that tell you. <P>I had a lengthy conversation with the head of one of the places. He told me that my H should go and be completely physically checked first, because some physical problems can cause what I thought was a mental problems. This Dr. told me not to put the cart before the horse, physical check first, it made since when he explained it to me. <P>I got into reading a lot of information on mental health, bipolar, etc. H seemed to fit many of the bipolar symptoms.<BR>Not that I could diagnosis, but I was desperate for answers. Than I read about information on mid-life crisis, and that seemed to fit. This was all before I knew the real reason H had left was OW. I found MB and those descriptions of behavior fit. So it's really hard to tell unless H is willing to go and find help himself. None of this is an exact science, so it takes professionals to try and figure it out. <P>It surprised me that my H made the 1st appointment himself and went, that told me at least he knew he had a problem. That Dr. gave him anti-depressant medication. H than went to the 2nd psychiatrists, and was given a different medication. That Dr. told him the first medication was wrong for him, and could make things worse. So the medication he prescribed was suppose to slow his brain down so he could think straight. H was told his thoughts were racing (which is one of the symptoms of bipolar) and he couldn't think straight(no doubt in my mind). H never went back again, I don't think he took medication right either. I kind of think he knew the Dr. would figure out the OW. Of course H didn't tell this and I didn't discover it until about a month later. Bipolar was a possibility, but without further visits the Dr. couldn't make a diagnosis. They say when people don't go it's because they could be trying to hide something, they don't want found out. Are you sure your H isn't still involved in an affair, or maybe it's the after effects?<P>My first ex admitted (years later) that he was so horrible to me to force me to leave, so he wouldn't have to feel guilty himself. <P>My current H, which as been gone 10 mths & living with OW, had progressively gotten more hateful towards me. H has cut off all contact, won't even talk to me. Before this nothing I could say or do made any difference. I've heard a lot of the same things you are hearing. My H was also, at one time a caring person. Now H only cares about himself & that OW.<P>Sometimes I think H talked to me so hatefully to push me away. Maybe talking to me was a reminder of what he has done and is doing. So H has pushed me entirely out of his life. I don't know and who does know? It's all so mind boggling. <P>For me this has created such mixed emotions. Sometimes, I feel sorry for him and think he is so mixed up and can't see it (maybe FOG). I just don't know what his problems are. But, at this point there is nothing I can do and things don't seem to be getting any better, just worse. I guess sometimes they have to go completely to the bottom. <BR>I know that H will have to figure this out for himself. <P>I know this is very hard to do, because I'm trying to deal with it myself. It will probably be most beneficial just to worry about yourself right now, before H's problems drain all your inner energy. I'm having am extremely difficult time with this myself, but I know it's what I have to do. I can't change H, only myself.<P>Sorry, I don't have any great advice or fixes. Hope things get better for you.<P>Take care and May God Bless<BR> <P> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Hurtwife (edited May 25, 2001).]

I don't know if you've seen it but in this recent thread cheatedonin98 talks alot about her manic depression, you should read it if you haven't <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/003170.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/003170.html</A> . She mentions there that if he says anything sucidal you can get him checked into the hospital with or without his consent, in fact implies if you are real desperate for help to lie and say he has to get him treatment. Just thoughts. He does sound suicidal to me.<BR>

Hi Scared. I'll check out that post in a minute, thanks. My husband swares that he is not suicidal and would never think of doing such a thing. However, he has talked about death more often lately (you should just kill me and end the pain, you'd be better off if I were dead, etc.). I realize it's a fine line. I am myself dealing with suicidal thoughts (going to counselor and on anti-depressants right now) and don't see the same signs in him that I see in me, so...<P>Hurtwife: Thanks for the post. Actually, my husband has been having "episodes" where he would get really down on himself and try to push me and everything he loves away for quite some time. This was even when he was totally in love with me. They were not that often at first (couple of times in 5-6 years), but these past two years have gotten much worse. The fact that he also has pushed away his OW and my daughter only confirms (in my mind) that the problem is not that he wants to get away from me, it's something deeper.<P>I look over his pattern the last 2 years and he even explained to me how his mood swings would go (he told me!). At first things would be wonderful, he would be totally in love with me and be happy, then slowly these feelings would start to falter and he would continue to pretend he had them so he could make me happy. Then they would just go away and he would get real depressed about it, sometimes trying to push me away, sometimes not. Then we would do something (not sure what) and the feelings of love/happiness would come back. And the cycle would continue...<P>I never understood why he was having these "voids". They did not seem right to me, or normal, but he would always pull out of them and go back to being himself, so I just dealt with it. I mean, love just doesn't keep coming/going in a normal relationship. He also refused to go to counseling, so...<P>Then in November he stopped loving me and things just got progressively worse from there. He still had the episodes, but now he would try even harder to push me away and he started doing worse and worse things to try and get me to leave, as I mentioned in my earlier post.<P>So, no, he's not cheating on me. He wants nothing to do with anyone because he says he will just continue to hurt anyone/anything that loves him or that he loves, this includes OW. He has no one in his life except me right now, he doesn't even have any friends he can stay with or talk to.<P>My husband has said that he doesn't know why he does things to hurt me, he doesn't want to, but he can't stop having bad thoughts and can't seem to stop hurting me. So, therefore he rationalizes that he must just be a horrible person and won't acknowledge the fact that there may actually be something wrong. Since he is a horrible person he must do everything in his power to be away from me and the kids because he will keep having his mood swings and keep hurting us.<P>And, no, he won't go to any type of doctor for anything right now. As far as he's concerned he wants to crawl into a hole and be miserable. AND THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT!<P>

Okay. Just one more question. If/when my husband does leave, what do you guys recommend? Think I should Plan A and be there for him all the time, allow him to come over whenever he wants, etc. I'm sorta thinking this may give him a crutch and let him have everything he wants without facing the magnitude of what he's done. OR, it could have the opposite effect and make him realize what he could be having ALL the time...<P>Or, do I do a plan B and only let him see the kids on the weekends and have virtually no assistance/friendship with me? I say only see the kids on the weekends because that would be what it was like if we divorced. My thinking is to basically make our lives as if we were divorced so he could see what he was missing. I want to give him a reality check, not be mean. I don't want to send him so far over the deep edge that he becomes suicidal either, I mean, I am the only person he has right now and even though he is trying to push me and the kids away, I am afraid of what may happen if I am not there if he does need me...<P>Or do I do something in the middle... Ugh. I'm so confused. All I want is for my husband to admit he has a problem and get help, but I'm not sure what the best way to help him is, at this point I think it is inevitable that he leaves, but what should I do when that happens...

Dear HbH,<P>What you are going through is similar with what I went through. Yours may have a longer timeline. <P>From what I experienced, for my sanity, I need to be in plan B when H moved out. But I did not move from plan A to plan B until 2 months after H moved out and 3 months after d/d. <P>For me, plan b was the right choice. You need to clearly understand Harley's counsel and it worked. Maybe not in all cacses but it worked. H is home now and learning to adjust. <P>L

hurtbyhubby:<BR>I read a lot of information on bi-polar disorders when my H went off on his thing. I'll try to find it for you. It gave a list of the symptoms.

Here are some sites I had found about bi-polar disorders when I was researching trying to figure out what my H's problem was? <P>Surprised me that a lot of the symptoms fit my H, relationship problems, which include<BR>destruction of personal relationships. Sensuality is pervasive, the desire to seduce and be seduced is irresistible (I thought this might account for the A's). Excessive moodiness or irritability, and impulsive or reckless behavior overwhelming confusion, racing thoughts. There were more also that fit my H, but I'm not a doctor, so I can't diagnois. <BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR>Pulled from one site: <BR>Often people with bipolar disorder do not recognize how impaired they are or blame their<BR>problems on some cause other than mental illness. <P>Descriptions provided by patients themselves offer valuable insights into the various mood<BR>states associated with bipolar disorder: <BR>Depression:<BR>I doubt completely my ability to do anything well. It seems as though my mind has slowed<BR>down and burned out to the point of being virtually useless....[I am] haunt[ed]...with the<BR>total, the desperate hopelessness of it all... <BR>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <BR>Some symptoms your H might have..but there are more on the sites. <BR>Persistent sad, anxious, or empty mood <BR>Feelings of hopelessness or pessimism <BR>Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, or helplessness <P><B>These site have a great deal of information:</B><BR> <BR><A HREF="http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/bipolardisorder.html" TARGET=_blank>MEDLINE PLUS Bipolar Disorder</A> <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://www.helioshealth.com/mental_health/bipolar_disorder/" TARGET=_blank>Helios Health Bipolar Disorder</A><P><A HREF="http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=cc/bipolar-print" TARGET=_blank>Brainconnection Bipolar Disorder</A><P><A HREF="http://www.suite101.com/links.cfm/1073" TARGET=_blank>Suite101.com Bipolar Disorder</A><P><A HREF="http://www.mhaccess.com/bipolar/index.html" TARGET=_blank>Bipolar Disorders Information Center</A><P><A HREF="http://www.lorenbennett.org/" TARGET=_blank>Bipolar Disorder Digest</A><P><B>This one has self tests</B><BR><A HREF="http://www.mentalhealth.com/fr20.html" TARGET=_blank>Internet Mental Health Bipolar Disorders</A><P><A HREF="http://www.psycheducation.org/" TARGET=_blank>Psych Education Bipolar Disorder</A><P>A lot of information to read. Maybe this could help you try to distinguish the possibility.<BR>There are some self tests in some of these sites also. Hope this help you. <BR>Take care and May God Bless <P><p>[This message has been edited by Hurtwife (edited May 27, 2001).]