I talked to a woman who has had multiple affairs with married men. I asked her the question how she felt about those wives. In all cases she did not think of the other wife. She said in all cases the wife was an inadequate wife and that's why the husband strayed. She said if she was married and was not a good wife then she could accept her husband having an affair. So she felt no guilt and considered the men to be very good men. She also felt that she was a good woman. I don't understand the thinking myself but this was the thinking. Affairs in general she thinks are very bad. But she justifies the ones she was in because the wife was not good (maybe too much nagging, maybe no good in bed , maybe too immature etc.). There was always some reason. So no guilt, no shame, nothing. In all the cases the wife did not know of the affair. All the affairs ended after a few months. <p>[This message has been edited by Rodger (edited May 25, 2001).]

Sounds like that woman has a major problem. Did you ask why none of them wanted her forever??????

<<I talked to a woman who has had multiple affairs with married men. I asked her the question how she felt about those wives. In all cases she did not think of the other wife. She said in all cases the wife was an inadequate wife and that's why the husband strayed>><P>Oh.....this is keen insight on her part, especially since she's NEVER been asked to be a wife......hmmmm????!!!!<P>Women of her likes and attitude make it more difficult to maintain a marriage in this day and age! Don't want to step on any toes but this is my opinion as the BS. Share that with her. Slam, dunk.......TWO!<P>------------------<BR>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!

Gee, I guess her MM left her after a few months because she was inadequate as a lover and OW. Do you think so.<P>And the men, the ones she thought were such good men, the were being wonderful husbands were they not.<P>It is amazing to me how far a person will go to justify their own behavior.<P>Z<p>[This message has been edited by zorweb (edited May 25, 2001).]

Very few people can see themselves or someone they love or think they love as being bad so it is understandable that they must find a villain and in this case it has to be the <BR>"that bad terrible, neglectful, selfish wife." <P>It's just an another example of rationalizing so that their actions while in the fantasy "fog" fits within their framework of rightness. "I say its right, so it is and that's all there is to that!!!!" Don't confuse me with the facts!!!! <P><BR>FAye

Self justification. Slug was happy to share with me what a bad wife I was. That I should just move on because I was the one responsible for the failure of my marriage.<P>And it's an easy trap to fall into... beware.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Many people did want this lady and now she is happily married. She said in all the cases the men approached her. She feels some took advantage of her now. But before she thought they were very good people because they did things for her. But this in my opnion is just men trickery to get the woman to submit. Those same men had affairs with other women after they were through with the woman I talked to. She was looking to marry a few times and after realizing the men would not leave their wives she ended it with them. But some still tried to go after her but she refused.

What I have found in life is that "what goes around, comes around". So one of these days this lady may find the opportunity to see what it is like to be a BS. To see that the women these men were married to were not bad wives. They were neglected wives married to selfish, self-centered men.<P>Z

Sadly there are tons of people like that in the world. I myself have broken off friendships with women who became OW. Both of these women knew exactly what they were doing. The justifications are unbelievable. <P>One girl asked the MM to go to a concert with her. Justification - If he really loves his wife then I won't be able to get him anyway so what odes it matter?<P>The other girl said that the MM was frantically pursuing her. I found it interesting that since he was the one pursuing then why was she giving him hearfelt cards and leaving little "just wanted to say hi" messages on his voicemail.

I agree with zorweb on this one. She is now happily M? Is she a good wife? So, IF her H has an affair, what will be the justification then for him to have done so? She has caused pain...I am not a mean horrible person but you get what you give in life.

This woman seems to be a good wife and mother now and is quite happy because she has found a good husband. She said before she just was never lucky enough to find a good marriage partner and many men took advantage of her. She said the reason was because she was attractive. She said men do not go after women as much if they are not attractive. <P>The woman's husband does not seem like the type who would ever have an affair so perhaps the saying "what goes around will come around" will not apply at least in this life. Although we all would kind of like to see a little revenge? Some people seem to get off easy in this life. <P>In talking to this person she seems like a very pleasant normal person. There doesn't seem to be an evil bone in her body. She does not agree with affairs but justifies the ones she was in because the men went after her and the men told her it was because the wife was no good or inadequate. So she accepted this justification. <P>In her case she did not see any bad effects because the wives never found out. Some of these husbands have since found new ladies to have an affair with. The husbands live in a different state. This lady has moved far away. She said she is 20% bad and the husband's were 80% bad.

Roger, <P>This woman and others like her can justify all she wants. Basically her 'nice husband' got a 'used woman. If he is ok with that then that is his business. Each has to ask that question: Do I want to start my married life with a used person? One who not only condoned but had multiple affairs? If it is ok for the W or H to do, is that what they are going to teach their sons and daughters? <P>No double standards here Roger. Think about this clearly. If it is ok, then why bother with the marriage license? Just live together? Hey, even pay the woman. Isn't that what a prostitute is? There are many 'normal' looking people that are prostitutes. Just like there are a lot of <BR>'good looking' men in the prison. <P>What goes around comes around? Well it will, it is just a matter of when. Do you really have to deal with scum to know it's scum? Hm..... Like playing with fire and claim to not get burned. You may not but the after affects of the smoke or residue will still be there. <P>For those looking for justification for the A, they need to go those sites that like to lie to justify their actions. This is not the place to justify an A. <P>I personally do not believe this woman is making your situation any better. She sounds like bad association to me. <P>Just me and my 2 cents. <P>L.<P><BR>

From both the WS and BS perspective (my 4 cents worth ... adjusted for inflation):<P>It has nothing to do with whether a person is "good" or not (for we all perceive ourselves that way unless we have an underlying psychological illness), it has to do with tunnel vision and self-gratification. Guilt causes self-justification (remember, we perceive ourselves as "good" so bad behavior must be explained away in some fashion).<P>She is just as vulnerable now as she was then; and her husband is no different. It is a common saying: those who do not understand the past are doomed to repeat it. That is what makes applying Dr. Harley's precepts an ongoing process in marriage: when we begin to become complacent, we begin to lose our focus on fulfilling emotional needs. Once that happens ... well, it is best not to tempt the Fates, isn't it ... they are fickle and take perverse delight in serving up a meal of crow, foot-in-mouth and humble pie: a most indigestible and unwholesome meal.<P>I hope she sees the light ... before that light is the one in the tunnel: you know, the one that is the train that is about to run you over ...<P>STL

Perhaps the title of this post should be "What ONE OW Thinks". <P>Like most of the other responders, I think it would be fascinating to see how she reacts to her own unfaithful husband. And I absolutely believe what goes around comes around.<P>How does she know what kind of wives these men had? Because they TOLD her? If a man is interested in being unfaithful, he will say ANYTHING he thinks the OW wants to hear! I've got a shock for you, Rodger. Not all unfaithful men have bad wives! And even if they DO have a less than perfect wife, that in no way justifies adultery.<P>The interesting thing about this is that obviously the woman you are talking about is a serial adulterer, and it seems clear that she got a reputation for being readily available for sex with married men. Heck, the men she cheated with probably used her for a while and then passed her along to another unfaithful man, sort of an unpaid prostitute.<P>She can excuse and justify her behavior all she wants to, all cheaters do until they have accepted their sins and repented them. I wonder if her "good husband" knows what kind of woman he married?<P>Peppermint<P>

Hi Peppermint:<P>It is no shock to me. I know that many wives are very good wives and yet the men cheat. I am definitely not condoning this person's actions. I am only trying to report what one woman thought was partial justification at the time she did this. Now she sees the light that all occasions were wrong. <P>She has told me that she considers the cases like date rape. She had no intention of doing this and now that she is married has no intention of ever repeating this behaviour. She was not married at the time. <P>She said when through her life various men helped her with different things such as getting jobs, getting raises and then made demands on her she didn't know how to say no. In all cases these were one night stands. There was no lasting romance that went on for months. <P>Her first husband did cheat on her and it was a shock to her. The husband divorced her. Further shock. But she said she put it out of her mind. Then a friend of a friend offered to help her. It's a tragic story but he ended up raping her. After this she had a very low regard for men.<P>She started to have the attitude that if the men want to use her then she will use the men to get ahead in this world. She said if it ruined their marriage then that was their problem. But in no cases she knows of did the wife find out. <P>She looks back before her marriage and says she never was happy before. Only now that she has found a decent husband, she hopes to be a good wife and forget the past. She said her past has been a life of suffering and probably she never ever loved anyone in her life before now.<P>Her husband does know her past and accepted her the way she is. I thought maybe her early marriage failure and being taken advantage of by the first guy that supposedly helped her caused the other affairs to happen? I don't know what her thinking was because she has just told me a little. <P>I have read hat some children who are abused sometimes get into a very bad lifestyle because of this. Since I don't know everything in this woman's past, it may be that she had some kind of trauma to cause her behavious and disregard for other people's wive's. She really feels the men are very bad in most cases and cannot understand why this is. <P>When the affairs happened she was often very depressed. Then some man would help her. I told her if someone helps you and expects sex in return then they are not helping you.

Wow. Talk about hard-wired for dysfunctional. <P>No offense, but this woman sounds like she was a terminal victim before she became a predator. Hopefully, she is neither.<P>That said, if I were single and looking to get married, any man who has had an EMR with a MW is immediately scratched from my list. I tried dating one, and could not get past his EMR with an older MW. They can try and clean the sleaze out of their lives, but it's sort of like cleaning up the shoreline after a major oilspill. Even afterward, something about the terrain is eternally tainted and one can never get that "pristine" quality back. <P>belld

<P>"She has told me that she considers the cases like date rape."<P>Except for the one case which she said was rape, the others sound like an intentional act on her part. This is not rape. It would be very healthy for her if some day she can come to realize her responsibility for her actions. <P>Any person (man or woman) who will demand sex after doing some one a favor a horrible person. In the past, when this has happened to me, I've walked away from the situation. If at all possible I returned any things of material worth given to me. Did not want the connection to this person. They gave freely. I am not obligated to base myself in return.<P>Seems to me that she has a ways to go in on this issue.<P>Z

Belldandy:<P>The pristine quality in humankind has been missing since the Garden of Eden, in case you hadn't noticed.<P>Thus, it is our lot to settle for "tainted" terrain. Know what? Good enough for this human: we make mistakes, we repent, we grow. God forgives (but doesn't forget); perhaps you could try that as well.<P>Before you take outrage: 3 years ago, I was a BS ... (and I hadn't found Dr. Harley and MB then): in retrospect, I was sanctimonious, holier-than-thou in the way I treated my ex-W ... "How could you do this? To forsake the sanctity of marriage, of our beliefs, all that we worked for?" etc. etc. etc. "I would NEVER do such a thing." Alas, I did. So now I am a recovering WS. Crow, foot-in-mouth and humble pie make poor fare.<P>I hope you don't have to share that supper.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL

<BR><<<Thus, it is our lot to settle for "tainted" terrain. Know what? Good enough for this human: we make mistakes, we repent, we grow. God forgives (but doesn't forget); perhaps you could try that as well.>>><P>But we all have limits on what "taints' we will accept. In my life I refused to date anyone who I knew had a past history of cheating. I dated one guy I knew to be a previous cheater and he cheated on me too. From that point on I felt like dating a known cheater was like "setting myself up". Not that there are any guarantees (I learned THAT the hard way), but previous behavior does count for something. That said I never thought my H would cheat. But I never thought he would come down with a case of major clinical depression or a mid life crisis either.<P>As far as anyone being susceptible to being a WS or OP I will have to disagree. When I was sinlge there were several very attractive MM who hit on me. I'll admit that I took part in a little flirting (which now being older and wiser I would nip in the bud) but the second they made any real overtures towards me I was suddenly disgusted and the thought of him turned my stomach. I guess it must just be the way my brain is wired. I could never stand to live a secret life and I could REALLY never stand to be anyone else's secret. When I hear a BS tell their story I can actually feel their pain. It all comes rushing back like a tidal wave. I couldn't stand to be part of that. My best friend was a MW who had an affair with a MM and we discussed this at length. She said "I would love to be able to say I'm not capable of having an affair, but unfortunately I have proven that I am. But that doesn't mean that everyone is capable or would do it." So IMO it's not really accurate to say that "everyone" could be a WS/OP. I think a more accurate statement would be that MANY people could be in that position if the circumstances were right. In my case I'd probably have been more likely to have had the potential to be a WS (under certain circumstances) if I had never been through it myself. I never had OW potential (I've proven this to myself countless times already).

Fairy Dust:<P>Never say NEVER. The Fates are fickle and perverse. I use to think that myself, particularly having been a BS myself.<P>ANYONE, given the proper circumstances, can be an OP or a WS. Just as the difference between a coward and a hero is only a matter of a split second's timing and the direction one runs; the difference between being an OP/WS is only matter of a single wrong choice at the wrong moment.<P>However, we can mitigate that range of circumstance by implementing Dr. Harley's precepts: the rules of honesty, care, protection and time, plus the meeting of EN, creates an environment that makes an A much less likely.<P>Godspeed and good luck,<BR>STL