Hi all:<P>Nothing really to complain about today...things are going pretty good for a change...actually got an unsolicitated hug and kiss today.<P>On a day like today, I have time to speculate on more generalized questions about this affair business. After reading lifeismessy on "As an OW, May I.." thread I was struck by this comment:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I felt like I need to reprogram him <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This seems so true to me...some WS (mine included) seem to be have been enveloped by the affair...willing to sacrific everything for it. How much of this is manipulation by the OP...just as a person can be manipulated by a cult leader to give up everything...including his family and his money...to pursue this fantasy lifestyle...how it seems like the WS changes everything about themselves...the way they dress...the places and things they like to do...their moral code...almost as if they lose themselves in the affair. Is mere stroking by the OP another to do this..or it there a predisposition on WS part. <P>For example...WS's OW moves in and out of our lives..she is here in town for short periods of two or three months...during which time he is totally emersed in her...he does what she wants to do...when she wants to do it...with certain limits of course...as if he really had no will of his own....but after a while he seems to get tired of it...has a fight with her...and she is gone again....and while she is gone (the last time for 8 months) he recovers and begins to appear happy again...comes out of the fog a little...then she's back. And it always seems to me that he wants to be free of her but can't. <P>Moonie behavior??? or Addiction??? Strange either way.<P>Faye

Faye - whatever it is, it's universal. Addiction, yes; temporary insanity, yes; moose brain worms, maybe; alien abduction, definitely!<P>Just remember the word origin of "wayward."<P>way, meaning the path or route to someplace, and<P>ward, meaning the loonie bin.<P>WAT

Buffy I was drawn to your post right away for obvious reasons! Yes I have likened my H's mind to a person such as the Moonies recruit! If you knew my H before his A you would never in a million years think he would lose himself so completely! My parents and his brother were SO shocked that they thought I was making up him having the A at first! It took me awhile to even convince them of what all was going on with him.My H is a small town farmboy with very sound morals, very honest and straightforward- a high achiever at work and a family man who compared himself to Clark Griswold! The day after I found out about the A he even was called by someone at church to start being a layreader there! My H was in a very emotionally vulnerable time in his life-midlifecrisis, parents both passed away, his only remaining sibling confessing he was gay, passed over for a big promotion he had been wanting, dealing with our son's newly diagnosed disability,moved across the country to take a new stressful position at work and all this within a years time --you get the idea! Rather than DEAL with these issues on an emotional level with me he just would stuff his feelings about them then when OW came along he threw himself TOTALLY into THAT! Thank goodness I read the Harley books right away and realized he was truly in a fog! OW was manipulating him to the max to get him to divorce me and luckily I figured this out and didnt LB too much or else I am sure he WOULD be gone! I let H make the big decisions in our house and I think part of the appeal of OW was that she was so controlling and aggressive that SHE took over and that appealed to the emotional child side of him!Thank God at least OW moved away from us! ( She claimed she was SICK of H coming home to sleep with me- his own wife!!!) He is finally coming out of the fog at the 4 mo point though we obviously need lots of marriage counseling. Good luck to YOU and I will be praying for your marriage. Take care lifeismessy

buffy:<P>How right you are!!!! My H is so fogged in, there are absolutely no flights going out. You would think H lives in San Francisco, but in actuality H is on the opposite coast of US. <P>Sacrificing everything, my H has. Funny you should say cult leader, the OW even looks like it (one of the walking dead), no doubt in my mind OW is evil. I kept say it's like H is possessed. This man was never the type of person to be controlled, but H is now. H is submissive to OW and even his voice changes to meek around OW. It's sad and pathetic. H is still living with IT 10 mths and continuing on. OW has cut H off from any contact with me. As the world turns, who knows??? I hope this addiction/fog lifts before H self-destructs. <P>It is definitely strange.....I agree. <BR>

EMPATHY to you all,<P>I was begining to thing that my H was the only one. A man who has always been in control of what he is doing, but now even his words are the carbon copy of what OW says. I have read her emails and she has "led him down the garden path". H can't see it, even when I point out that what he said is exactly what she uttered. She even described her bedroom and told him as he went to sleep that night to feel her near him in her room. She planted so many ideas in his head... Marriage to him, life will be so beautiful, send me your plans for our new house, etc. H says I only read one side, H said that "I told her (OW) that it was not in my plans." (AS YET, my take on his waffle) H is willing to give up everything for this A. Obsessed? ( he says mezmerized). Absolutely!<P>SHOCK. Yes, this was to all families and especially or me<P>So many times on this board I must sound like the total uncaring b*tch, I am not. I am so hurt and feel the pain, that I can only try to hold on to what little self respect remaining. <P>Advice? ... You know your limits. I tried a tough love letter (see my previous post for copy), before he left for a weekend with OW. It was the first time he acknowledged my emails or faxes... he was upset. <P>But to you, dear's, I hope and pray that you will renew the love, respect and affection of your S and yourself. <P>No rules to this game, but we must know we have done our best.<P>

Wow I see Buffy and I arent the only ones with completely fogged in Husbands!When my H was in the height of his fog the first 3 mo after he confessed I could hardly BELIEVE some of the unkind things that came out of his mouth- for example- " I dont know if I can get my feelings back for you," "I cant kiss you because its like you'd be demanding I go kiss the next door neighbor lady!," " I dont like spending any time with you without the kids along," " I never felt emotionally bonded to you thruout our 15 yr marriage,' and of course his famous confession line, " I figured our marriage was over in my head before the A became physical and I know you'll never be able to forgive me so I'll be leaving you." Yes I actually made of list of these and more as they were TRULY amazing coming from him. Thank God he is talking alot more sane now at the 4 mo point! Hang in there gals- the weather is BOUND to improve eventually! lifeismessy

AMEN,<P>Especially the part where the intimacy quits. Like, we" bacame only buisness partners." How much they forget or better said, JUSTIFY their relationship to OW. <P>I did all I am capable of, my rope is frayed, don't think I can hold out much longer. If you can, do it. <P>After reading 100+ pages of her emails, I guess I too am in the fog. I'm angry. I plan A'd, but H continued his A. Just how much can the BS take?<P>Guess we must all do whatever we are comfortable with. Whatever that is . <BR>Will hope for the clouds to lift. Lifeismessy, thunderstorms may be on the horizon, but they do pass. Take care of yourself and do what you must.<BR>Love to all.

Hi All:<P><BR>I've been trying to place myself in my WS position and consider if I would be willing to give up so much for anyone. Now I know Harley says anyone is capable of having an affair if the conditions are right and I suppose that might be true but I cannot imagine myself giving up what I consider "me" for anyone...I don't believe for a minute I would give up the respect of my children for any "man" or that I would be willing to inflict the kind of pain on anyone that I have endured for the last few years.<P>This is why I find it so hard to accept my WS total submersion in this OW. To me to give up so much would have to mean that this one person (OW) is the greatest thing that has ever happened in my life. My WS has gone from being a well respected professional man, loved for his personality and gift with people, in addition to his quick intelligence...to a man who at one time had his fellow colleques do a mini-intervention (involving taking him to the hospital for drug testing)...and one day showed up at court with his drunk girlfriend...and eventually to become a source of laughter in the community because of his stupidity. <P>WAT:<P>If it's brain worms...then his are complete eaten away.<BR>If it's addiction...then OW is a easy source <BR>If it's moonie behavior...then he needs an intervention.<P>But I really think if he had a lobotomy I don't think I would notice any difference.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Originally quoted by lifeismessy.<P>My H was in a very emotionally vulnerable time in his life-midlifecrisis, parents both passed away, his only remaining sibling confessing he was gay, passed over for a big promotion he had been wanting, dealing with our son's newly diagnosed disability,moved across the country to take a new stressful position at work and all this within a years time --you get the idea! Rather than DEAL with these issues on an emotional level with me he just would stuff his feelings about them then when OW came along he threw himself TOTALLY into THAT! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, lifeismessy, my WS had also suffered the loss of his parents in the year prior to all this beginning...and his OW is also a very controlling woman...almost as if he needed someone to be in control of his life...he needed to deal with others problems (and she had a bunch) instead of trying to deal with his own. Do cult members come from similar situations...are they people who are in emotional need...and vunerable to the manipulations of very controlling people? Do they need to lose themselves in something or someone because they can't face themselves?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Originally quoted by Hurtwife.<P>H is submissive to OW and even his voice changes to meek around OW. It's sad and pathetic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I've noticed this too...now WS is a lawyer...with a JD and 8 years of schooling...but several people who have seen them together says she bosses him around and he hangs on every word she says....she being OW who never finished high school...who's been in prison for felony drunkeness...who rants and cusses like a truckdriver (pardon my association all you truckdrivers)...go fiqure. WS says he's *****whipped but I don't think any's that good. <P>lifeismessy and Whatami:<P>Gosh...my WS has also said things like "I only love you like a sister or my mother" or "we have a business relationship together". He even said he thought I was never attracted to him sexually...wow...now he thinks he's a mind reader.<P>Whatami:<P>Your description of what OW said about her bedroom and marriage reminded me of a letter I read that OW wrote WS from prison. It went something like this:<P>Dear *****:<P>As I sit here missing you so badly I feel like a small little throbing heart that is beating for you only and I wish you could just take me in your hand and put me in your pocket so that I could be next to your heart...small, warm and protected near you......<P><BR>That was the gist of it but I thought...geezse...what a bunch of crap...sounds like junior high stuff...but you know what...WS ate it up...said it made him feel needed and important to her. Now this is the same helpless little OW who called him last week and cussed him out on the answering machine when he wasn't there when she called to talk to him...or the same one who he went home to find in bed with another man about two weeks ago (said he was going to break it off with her then...but she was able to work it out somehow)...a person would have to be crazy to put up with such crap...but he does. Some people just know how to manipulate people to get what they want...but what are the WS getting out of it...except suckered.<P><BR>Faye<P> <P>

I wonder if there is a book for OW's and WS's. You know "Affairs for Dummies." There must be since they all say nearly the same things.<P>My H. You never listened to me. She listens to me.<BR>You demeaned me. You don't respect me. I never was really in love with you. I just admire and respect you. I never want to see you harmed. I never wanted to get married. I never wanted children. I just need to go and think things through. I am not leaving you for her. I want my family, just not to be married.<P>Her. My stomach hurts I miss you so much. I love you. I love everything about you. I want to talk and talk and talk with you. If we were together, I'd bet we'd never sleep because we'd just talk all night. I love everything you say. I love your passion. You're my man. <P>Funny all through this I have been wondering if there was some kind of crisis intervention for WS's. I just want my H back, you know?<P>Take care.<P>------------------<BR>See each day as a new beginning!<P>Cali

My WH did all the same things. Said the cruelest things in his fog. Well...I have good news for you--they do eventually come out of that fog. My H now can't even remember some of the things he's said (or is too ashamed to admitt he remembers). I truly think he was so ashamed of it, he had to force it out of his mind to go on.<P>My H had all that stress stuff going on too. And yes, I do think that's why certain people are drawn into cults.<P>Good luck and patience to all of you.

InShockinCal:<P>I really think that some of what is said in the "fog" is unexcusable. I remember reading where your WS said those things to you and I thought at the time "How Can He be so Cruel?" I guess there is no other way to explain it then to say that they are very mixedup and not entirely responsible for what they say or think...they can be that off the wall.<P>He: She crawls up into my lap and tells me how much she needs me to protect her. She can get me to do anything she wants. We are so much alike...I've never seen anyone who likes sex as much as she does (oh, is he in for a big shock later). She uses her female wiles on me (Can anyone say "manipulation"?)<P>She: You love your wive but you're not "in love" with her like you are me. Our love is like strawberrys and cream...your love for your wife is like pudding...You deserve to be happy even if it does make everyone else unhappy...you only live once. I don't need anything from you but your love...that will be enough for me to live on.<P><BR>Only an idiot would believe this junk...and yet he repeated it like it was a truism or some great insight into life that he has just been informed of....give me your money..you need to give all your devotion to me to me so that it can be put to a better more divine use...at the alter of our love...doesn't seem that far-fetched to me or so totally different from cultism.<P><BR>Very Hurt:<P>Yes, even WH has begun to see glimses of clearing...but he still is vunerable and needs to realize that only getting away from the cult or the addictive substance will bring the cure...even a little bit is too much...and until he realizes this himself and is willing to take the necessary steps then he will remain tied to his addiction or at the mercy of the cult. Sometimes I wish it were as possible for people to realize that you can be addicted to people who are as bad for you as a cult is and from whom you need to be separated by the intervention of those who really love you.<P>A lot of the time friends and family just assume that who you love is a personal thing and they don't need to interfere but when a love affair threatens to tear apart the very fabric of your life then sometimes you do need help. A I think at times the extent of the affair and its effect on your business, you reputation and you family do require that someone do something to help you even if you don't want help.<P>Faye<P> <BR>

Hi! I'm new here and I can't begin to tell you how this thread just got to me. I thought I was alone or that I was the one really losing it when my H started to act - well you know how..I thought he had been bitten by some strange flying object and caught a new virus, I thought he was possessed, I thought all kinds of things. When D-day finally arrived (last Easter) I was just so relieved to know that it wasn't me that was going nuts. Then of course when I was introduced to MB I began to understand the lapses of memory, the angry outbursts on his part everytime we asked him the most insignificant question - well I'm sure you catch my drift…<BR>My question now still remains - do I hang in there and hope, pray etc that his fog will lift and he will come back eventually (he lives with OW now in another state- left me and the 2 kids - but keeps in touch by phone and email). He is more concerned about us lately - financially, healthwise now than when he was living with us. It was sheer hell for the past 2 years. When I look back I don't know how I made it this far - wish I had heard of MB then. <BR>Anyway - I'm venting a bit here. Thanks for listening. Responses would be welcome - either here or my original message - Confused -please help!<BR>Shakti<BR>

Mine's always been a moonie, but now he's taken over as assistant cult leader. He's too good to give out books in the airport--he writes them. It will take decades to reprogram him, if at all, I have a feeling.

This personality change is so pervasive that it has made me feel that everything I have ever believed is just illusion. My H said not long after he left that he would rather pay someone else to do work that is hard and dirty. This is a man who left a white collar job to become a dairy farmer - possibly the hardest and dirtiest job on earth. <P>He sees little of his children, the children whom were once all important to him. <P>I do not believe that the "fog" necessarily ever lifts. My H has been gone over two years. This once hard-working man has been unemployed for over a year. He sees less and less of his kids as time goes by.

"If it's brain worms...then his are complete eaten away.<BR>If it's addiction...then OW is a easy source <BR>If it's moonie behavior...then he needs an intervention."<BR>I would say YES to all three. Read a book many years ago entitled "Let my children go." It was written by a deprogrammer who joined a cult just to observe their methods. What he relates will sound amazingly similar to what the WS is experiencing. <BR>The prospective member must be in a vulnerable state (MLC, family or financial problems, boredom, rejection, depression, etc.). Someone who wants to know his purpose for living. Wants to feel fulfilled, accepted and admired. When approached by the cult leader he begins to feel that his answer has arrived. His ego is so stroked by the cult member that he feels he MUST have more of the same. He puts his trust in this person. Now he is transported to a new dimension. The cult gives him undivided attention and praise. It also begins the brainwashing by subtle suggestions. ( ie, we are the only ones who care about you, love you, need you. Life will be empty without us. In order to attain complete happiness you must reject those that are now in your life. They can not make you happy, we are the only ones that can. ) The messages must be repeated over and over and over, until finally the brainwashing is complete. The victim is unable to resist (brainworms) and now is addicted. Escape is unthinkable. <BR>Others can clearly see what has happened to the victim, yet he doesn't have a clue. He is captured by cult thinking and stroking. The cult will constantly reinforce their suggestions, leaving the victim helpless to resist. When the family tries to remove him, the cult tells him they are the enemy who is trying to rob him of happiness. In order to deprogram him, the deprogrammer kidnaps the victim. For hours on end the victim defends his position, the deprogrammer confronts with the truth. Over and over, round the clock until the victim is finally exhausted and helpless. At this point, the victim will understand what the truth really is.<BR>The parallel to our WS and the OP is obvious. Unfortunately, the solution is not tenable. Seems the deprogrammer must be a third party, which in our case would probably be a C. But how can you get him to see one if he doesn't want to? Brute force does have an appeal, however. <BR>The control aspect, perhaps the WS is just tired of the responsibilities of life, family and living, so when someone offers to relieve them of the burden, they accept.<BR>A big ditto on the HE said, SHE said communications. ESPECIALLY, "We are so much alike." And the most nauseating "You deserve to be happy", speech. Say this mantra over and over and over and you will believe. (Brainwashing at it's best.) <BR>"She: You love your wife but you're not "in love" with her like you are me. Our love is like strawberrys and cream...your love for your wife is like pudding...You deserve to be happy even if it does make everyone else unhappy...you only live once. I don't need anything from you but your love...that will be enough for me to live on."<BR>My thought is that the only solution is to hope and pray that the cult leader does some MAJOR lovebusting, over and over and over. <BR>We need all the help we can get.<BR> JS<BR>

Whatami--Exactly!! Thank you for sharing that bit of information--in a way, being lured away into a passionate affair is just like being sucked into a dangerous cult. Anyway, I can see the same traits in my husband--still--post affair. The hostility that he showed me was like someone who had been to the Dark Side.<P>Okay, I have to join the crowd on quotes:<P>Him (the only things he will say to me about her She doesn't drive me crazy like you do. She was one bright spot in my despair.<P>Her (to him) You were my home, and now that you are gone, all I have left is bricks and mortar all around me. I would give everything up for you (I have before, and I will do it again.) I love you, Nanouschka, how could you leave me to go to someone who treats you like s**t? I would have gone anywhere in the world with you if you had taken me. I wish my (pet chihuaua) could sprout wings and I could fly on her back to be where you are now (yes, she really said that REEEETCH!!!)<P>Blah blah blah. I wrote better love letters when I was in the sixth grade.

I like the Affairs for Dummies idea. I've often thought I'd like to point my wife and OM to one big post or link that is packed full of totally relevant affair talk and case histories so they can see that they are operating according to the famous script. Having to fish around the website wouldn't work.<P>We all get the same old lines of crap from our fogbound creatures.<P>6 months before our marriage was suddenly so unhappy and not right, she came home from a trip with about 10 women and said "thank god I married you, some of these women have mean husbands". And some have nice ones, but they complain anyway. I only say nice things about you. Am I ever lucky" bla bla bla.<P>4 days before she announced her unhappiness, she went out to the store all excited to buy maps of Paris, because there was a job there that I had been contacted about.<P>Leading right up to her announcement, we both always agreed that you remain committed forever and if there are problems, you work on them, and remain a united family.<P>She chastised a friend of hers that did exactly what my wife did, just a year or 2 earlier.<P>Thats enough....one could write for days about this kind of stuff.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited May 28, 2001).]

Wow, I was going to write a post entitled--Fog or Fun-house mirrors?--or something to that effect. My WH could look at a cement block and see that chihuaua with wings decribed earlier in this thread. It's as if he's in more than fog, he's perceiving reality in some totallly distorted way. I don't mean just the A itself, EVERYTHING--he actually says things that he forgets or denies the next second, or will follow something I've just said with a statement that I've just said exactly the opposite. Many people around us (both those who know about the A and those who don't) have said he is not at all the same person he was two years ago (pre-OW, pre-moose-brain-worms) in so many respects. Glad to hear everyone gets the line about "stepping aside" for the happiness of WS and OP. Grrrrr!!! How can some twit (the mildest term I've ever used for her since D-day) walk into the lives of a married couple and determine what will make everyone happy ("my" OW has also said the only way I will be happy is to "let my H go"---which I did once, and it was HE who asked for another chance, on which he has since reneged). "Soulmates"--yeah, right---I mentioned once before the movie "Election" with Reese Witherspoon playing the role of my OW--watch at least the part where the High School teacher refers to his teenage student as the "only person who really understands him" and his "soulmate." Good for a bitter laugh, when that sort of thing is what you need. Oh, and if we're comparing marriages, A's and food--how about: an A is like giving in to a craving for a hot fudge sundae, whereas a good marriage is like a gourmet meal--it'll take some effort and time to prepare, but will be much more satisfying, nourishing and enjoyable in the long run? octavia99<P>[This message has been edited by octavia99 (edited May 28, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by octavia99 (edited May 28, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Quote by whatami<P>The prospective member must be in a vulnerable state (MLC, family or financial problems, boredom, rejection, depression, etc.). Someone who wants to know his purpose for living. Wants to feel fulfilled, accepted and admired. When approached by the cult leader he begins to feel that his answer has arrived. His ego is so stroked by the cult member that he feels he MUST have more of the same. He puts his trust in this person. Now he is transported to a new dimension. The cult gives him undivided attention and praise. It also begins the brainwashing by subtle suggestions. ( ie, we are the only ones who care about you, love you, need you. Life will be empty without us. In order to attain complete happiness you must reject those that are now in your life. They can not make you happy, we are the only ones that can. ) The messages must be repeated over and over and over, until finally the brainwashing is complete. The victim is unable to resist (brainworms) and now is addicted. Escape is unthinkable<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>WOW....I don't think I've ever heard it described so well...the vunerable WS coming together at just the right time with the manipulative OP with the words that are just what WS needs to hear right then...although I think that their vunerability makes them more succeptible. I don't think this kind of manipulation would work with everybody.<P>My WH lost his parents...his life was not where he wanted to be...he got involved with some people who partied a lot...met some women who knew how to "treat" a man (his words}...he was middle-aged...tired of working so hard...tired of responsibility....found a OW and friends to whom working was not important where he would be accepted no matter what he did or didn't do....and she had all the words to make him feel this was the right place for him.<BR>No matter that this new world that he was entering was a total denial of his own life...denial of his family and friends...denial of his own values up to that time.<P>This is what I have found so hard to accept. That the man I have known for 30 years could change so substantially and fundamentally from what he had been for all his life. That's why I think there is more involved in this then just neglected ENs....yes, there are time when EN are neglected in a marriage (and mine was no exception) and it would be understandable that a party might find those ENs in the arms of someone else....and I could even understand it if it was an OW like the ones who come to MB...good people who just made a mistake...but not the awful people that some of our WS get involved with.<P>And I think deep down inside these WS know what they are doing is wrong and they try to fight it...but the pull is strong...that's why when OW is out of the picture for a while their heads begin to "clear" a little....without their constant presence reinforcing the myth it begins to fade a little. This is why I have stayed so long...the feeling that he wants me here...that I am really the only thing he has to hold on to...a rock that anchors him to his real life...so that he does not drift entirely away and get lost forever. And I have seen changes in the last few months that indicate that he is making efforts to extricate himself from the situation...slowly but surely. Therefore Plan A has been a success for me...and I'll keep it up for now.<P>Faye<BR> <BR>

Wow! The OW I dealt with was far more surreptitious. She wasn't the poetry-writing ninny like a lot of these OW, however she exacted her influence on him all of the same by pretending to be the 'caring' friend who 'only wanted to see him happy' and urged him to 'get away from _______." What, am I some third world country ridden with typhoid cases or something?<P>I intercepted some cards and email cards that she sent him - all of this faux sincere crap. She was very good at doing the 'sincere' act - the 'down to earth gonna be your pal and help you' stuff. Erg. <P>If he met her through the group of friends I think he did (one which involves a serial OW), then she's probably cut from the same cloth as I suspect. Brrrr!<P>belldandy