Dear Buffy, I noticed you mentioned that Plan B has never been a viable option for you because you are in business with your WS and that Plan B would mean you would have to give up a big part of your life. I am in a similar situation and would love to hear any advice/commiseration from you. <P>I have a few posts over the past month or so--I live and work out of the US and cannot maintain regular internet contact, so it's been tough to keep up to date on the MB board. Briefly, my H is the WS, a professor who has had an A with one of his students. We have a joint project, created together, unique and not easy to split apart, that is carried out here. Aside from dealing with all the same difficult and painful issues every BS must, I have been trying at the same time to figure out how to carry on my life without losing all I have put into our joint work should saving the marriage become impossible.<P>At the moment, I am in exactly the situation I was a year ago, despite having gone through good and bad cycles in between (perhaps also like what you have described in your M). My H is demanding a D, but says we should continue working together. But not working together as equals, he wants me to defer completely to his authority, continue to carry on all the functions I have been fulfilling for the past nine years of the project (no small task in this third world, highly bureaucratic country) while he keeps control (and takes all the credit). He envisions this continuing forever! When I broached the topic of possibly beginning to split up the project as new areas are added, he gave an emphatic NO, that ANYTHING even related to this work belongs to him and always will. What he is "offering" me is the choice of losing everything I have put my heart and soul into over the past decade, or agreeing to work under him, while OW/student is elevated to my former status and "assists" him in being Grand Poobah of everything.<P>Now, the big difference between last year and this year is that I have since found out about MB and am (finally!) starting to understand about Plan A and the rest of the concepts here. So I am trying to do Plan A, and for the past few days, have been in a different state than before, finally starting to realize that our marriage may be saved or not, but I must preserve my own dignity and behave in the best way possible for me.<P>My question to you and others is, when the issue of continuing to work with him comes up, where do I draw the line between Plan A and allowing him to have the "best of both worlds," i.e., continuing to have the OW fulfill his emotional needs, while my hard work shields the A from reality?? I know Dr. Harley recommends Plan B after Plan A has been tried, and, like you, I don't know how I can do that without giving up a lot, and/or having a HUGE confrontation--because, truth be told, my H cannot do this work without me. Even if it were possible for him to hire someone (or train OW) in what I do, he couldn't carry on the work here (long story, but I've been told this by many people who are in a position to know). How have you handled this predicament?? Thanks and best wishes, octavia99

bumping this up top in hopes of a response, thx

Wow...this is a toughie and I am not in a position to answer...but, I can add one thing.<P>As long as your husband is still working/seeing/interacting with affair partner his views on you and your marriage will be distorted. Can you spend the equal amount of time with him that his affair partner does or allow them to not be left alone together?<P>I still work with my ex-affair partner and we have been clean for eight months now. At first just to see him or pass him was painful for me but we have ceased any communication between us unless business only and over time I have fallen in love with my husband again - there are still triggers which cause me pain but it was my downfall and I deserve to live with pain for the rest of my life. <P>In the ideal world you would want him away from her but he has to be willing to be fair to you in order to make the marriage work.<P>Keep us posted...<BR>Scuba<BR>

Dear Octavia<P>I do understand. Sometimes I think that the only leverage I have is the business. H says we became only business partners. (Certainly wasn't my choice or impression, but they do tend to rewrite history}<P>My WH is so deeply into the fog that there is no reasoning, no loving, no feeling that will reach him. As the BS, what are the choices. Live with what the WH demands or detach lovingly. Sometimes I think that we really need to vent to him and rattle the sword. My H is a man that makes a decision then is "hell bent" on completing his course. (Hell bent, is right)<P>The only way I have been able to get him to actually think is by some LBing. Suggest you read Dr. Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough." Sent my "tough love letter" and H actually responded, with feeling. <P>You seem to have leverage, somehow he must feel that you are the doormat and he can control the situation. Perhaps, H needs to know that he is not in total control ... You can actually disrupt the plans that he has made. Should you do it? Your choice, but at least it puts him in a reality mode.<P>Our business are different from yours, yet we do need to connect in order to run them. He does not like to see his future compromised. So ... he tries to play both sides. I can only play one side, MY side. It is so difficult, but I do need my self respect. My life has been "us", with him the boss. <P>So dear, shake up his world. May be the only chance some of us BS's have.<P>God bless you,<BR>JS

Thank you for the responses.<BR>Scuba2, that is very encouraging for me to hear that you still work with your ex-A partner but have fallen in love with your H again, thanks very much for sharing that. It's been one of my biggest stumbling blocks, the fact that the OW is determined to stay in his life as a grad. student; of course it means much more interacting than merely working at the same place, but at first, because of the MB "no contact" rule, I thought our situation was absolutely hopeless. I know my H is a long way from working out his feelings about everything, but, in my calm moments, I can see definite changes and some improvements.<P>The hardest thing is that, even when he is reasonable and sincere about wanting to try with the marriage, and wanting to ensure we work together in a fair and equitable way, the fact of the OW being in the picture makes it VERY difficult for me to respond without fears, doubts and insecurities. If he had to have an A, I wish it could've been with someone completely outside of our work, then I think I could deal with establishing a good working relationship and sorting out the marital problems later!<P>Thank you whatami for your empathy--it is extra-complicated, isn't it, to have the work issues and emotional issues intertwined? Yes, the "leverage" I have with the work has been both my protection as well as a source of great stress between us. H did not want to feel he was "forced" to stay with me only because of the work--and of course, I don't want him to continue in the M only for that reason. Yet perhaps without the joint work, we may've both given up long ago? Someone once told me it's not a bad thing to have an external reason for not giving up quickly...the work is in a way like having children, something you both care about and don't want to see hurt, something you hope may yet bring out the best in both of you.<P>But, like you, I was stung to the core when my H first suggested we mutate from being a married couple to "business partners"--he maintained we always worked well together, we just "didn't get along" as a couple. Well, the truth is, working together was always one of the biggest sources of stress! And I've often thought, gee, if we DIDN'T work together, our marriage would be more "normal"; at the very least, it would be a lot easier to be supportive of one another in tough times (as it is now, we face the same crises at the same times, and there have been big ones, due to the nature and location of our work).<P>I will definitely get a hold of a copy of "Love Must be Tough" when I get back to the States, I've seen it recommended many times. I have to be careful with my H, though, because the biggest LBs for him are those that involve telling him what to do, or not appreciating him or his abilities. Some "tactics" that might work for most people would definitely push my H further away. But I am hungrily seeking out all the advice and information I can get. Thank you again. octavia99

Dear Octavia, posted this from another thread: Quote from quakermom321:<P>"Hi - as someone who has been in Plan B the last 10 months let me tell you what has worked for me. It might not be what works for you..... To me Plan B as a control device does not work. The problem that a lot of us have is that we think we can control what is happening with our spouse now and we can't. That's what people mean when they say take care of yourself. Yourself is the only perspon you can control right now so that is who you can focus on (and your child of course!!)<BR>I think you also have to go into PLan B thinking that it is the end and it is time to move on. What your wife thinks is not important. She is still all twisted up. You have to do what is right for you and hope in the long term she begins to come out of the fog.<BR>I only say these things because after 10 months of Plan B my husband and I just started counseling together. I don't know where it is going but I have seen that he was on his own timetable and that I could never have predicted 6 months ago that we'd even be talking, let alone going to counseling.<BR>Kris"<P>Reading this still gives me hope for my H and me, although I do think it is the end. Hope it will give you some of the same. The idea behind tough love and plan B is to give the BS a sense of personal identity, independance and control only over what is in your control. A WH with the OW is not something you can control. Reminds me of the prayer that AA uses, to recognize the things we can change, the things we cannot change, and the wisdom to know the difference. <P>The WS is addicted to the OW in much the way an alcoholic is addicted to a substance. <P>I can identify with your thought.<BR>"I have to be careful with my H, though, because the biggest LBs for him are those that involve telling him what to do, or not appreciating him or his abilities. Some "tactics" that might work for most people would definitely push my H further away." <P><BR>My H's OW is giving him so much ego stroking in just these directions, that if I try to do the same, he is not listening or understanding. He doesn't even realize that SHE is controlling him. OW continually tells him how wonderful her beautiful, kind understanding, honest, trustworthy, (ad nausem) "soulmate" he is. He's hooked.<P>I told him we can communicate only through a third party if he was to go on a vacaction with OW last weekend. He went. This is so hard, but I feel that faxes and email, only when necessary, will help me. He said he will try but we have to talk because of the buisnesses. It only opens the wounds when we speak, because it always comes down to his infidelity and discussing us. Good, Bad I don't know. If I had answers, I probably would not be in this situation. <P>Seems nothing works when they are so deeply in the "fog". Quakermom seems to have been strong enough to keep the door open while working on herself. IMHO, what else can we do?<P>Let go, Let God. JS

Hi Octavia99:<P>Sorry I am so late in answering but my computer crashed and I've just gotten around to fixing it today.<P>You're right...working with your WH is difficult and it was very hard on me at first...but I realized that it gave me an edge over OW...it gave me time with him that she could not control...time that was necessary for his work. Oh, we waged a mighty war...she dragging him away and keeping him from working...me plugging away at what needed to be done...keeping the whole thing afloat...but in the end I won...he could not give up his whole life either....and it proved to be a real LB for her. And I think it is his consistency in knowing that I was important to him and upholding my right to continue to work with him if I wanted that has kept me going for so long.<P>When he was first in the fog he tried to bring her into the office to work with him but that was a big bust....she was just not prepared to do what I could do....and even crying was not enough to fix things for her. So after about a month of a sorta Plan B, he asked me if I would come back and that was the end of her activities at the office.<P>I got some advise once on this board that has been invaluable to me through all this. Someone said that they had reminded their WH that marriage was a package deal...that any contribution that they made to the marriage was because of the love they shared with their spouse...and that if that ended then so too did their unpaid contribution to the marriage...and they would not remain as a friend, a business partner or anything thing else...that their association was over. I shared this with my WH and he was stunned...I don't know what he expected...perhaps for me to continue on like nothing was going on. I think my WH knows that the moment that I feel that the marriage is over...so will my contribution to the business...and he knows the loss.<P>We are in the beginning stages of recovery...not sure if recovery is possible...but getting signs for hope.<P>The situation with OW working on the project is hard to imagine...will you have to deal with her on any kind of a daily basis? This would not have worked for me...to keep the two totally separated is all that will work...and we struggle with that everyday because of phone calls from OW.<P>Is there some way that you can continue your work without have contact with her? Do you feel like you WH values your work enough to ask that of him? Surely he is not so callow that he doesn't understand how difficult that would be for you. If this can be arranged then by all means continue your work with him. If not then perhaps after a sufficient time in Plan A you might consider severing your contributions to the project and seeing what developes.<BR>This is, of course, a calculated risk....that he really can not do without your aide...but might be worth it....even the month I did not work was a stain on WH.<P>My best advise is to stick it out as long as you can manage it...because it continues a tie to your WH...a slender cord that might be enough to maintain the marriage through this rough period of the "heavy fog". It worked for me, I think.<P>Faye<P> <P>

Thanks to you both for the advice!!<P>whatami, the thoughts about Plan B are helpful, that it isn't a "tactic" to win the WS back, but a carefully thought out step taken only when the BS is serious about moving on. I know I haven't really been great with Plan A and Dr. Harley's approach suggests moving to Plan B only after efforts with Plan A have been continued without success to the point where the BS is close to losing all chance of regaining/maintaining love for the WS. I'm not there yet. The tough thing is, if I do get to that point and H isn't ready either to let go or make a serious effort about the M, I can't detach and still retain my part of the work without either his cooperation or a major battle.<P>RE: the ego-stroking from the OW, we're in the same boat here. I have never failed to compliment my H on his extraordinary knowledge in our field, but he remembers none of that--the OW/student's praise/deification of him seems to have cancelled out my expressions of admiration. That soulmate bit really made me violently ill at first, but seeing it as a leitmotif between most WS/OPs has helped. One thing that my H says is making it hard for him to minimize contact with her to the bare minimum required by her continuing as his student is that she keeps saying how much she loves him and this makes it hard for him to be "mean" to her. I have tried to point out to him that no one is asking him to be "mean" to her, that establishing once and for all that their A and any "special" relationship is over is actually kinder to her than keeping her hopes up. Of course there is no reasoning with him, because I know he is still in the addiction stage and doesn't want the OW to stop wanting him. You are right, I can't control that and I am trying hard to let go, as you say, and concentrate on what I can do. Thanks again.<P>Buffy, thank you very much for your response--to answer your questions first: I have made it clear to my H that I will never, ever work with her again in any way, under any circumstances. Yes, sadly, he was callow enough to expect that, in his words, "Once everthing is fine between us, then it won't matter who is working on the project."!!! I could not BELIEVE he could be so incapable of understanding the pain that would put me through. But he was thinking of things only from his perspective, how could he get out of the fix he created with the least collateral damage. I did have to deal with her on a daily basis, last year at this time, when they were moving rapidly from an EA to a PA--and not even in an office, but in a place where we three and 6 workmen were the only people in the middle of nearly 10,000 sq. miles of wilderness. H and OW went off together to "work", the workmen and I stayed on site and did most of the actual work, day in and out...I've posted the whole painful story elsewhere, I won't go through all the details, but as I've said, it was the cruelest thing that anyone ever has done or ever could do to me. It's reason I've had a really hard time getting over this, and why I stand firm on never repeating the scenario again.<P>H did agree to keeping her off the project this year (after MUCH screaming and shouting at me that I was trying to undermine his control of the work--I kept telling him this wasn't about the work, it was about the A...like talking to the wall...), but we have to turn in a list of potential project members each year, that will happen when we return to the States in July, and I fear the issue will come up again. Do I "give in" on the list part, knowing I will then have more than nine months before the issue of her coming to this country will have to be finalized? What do you think? I guess I can say, well, go ahead and put her on the list, but know that if she does come out, you and I working together is over forever. I agree with you, the M is a "package deal" (I think this is even in SAA) and H's expecting me to relinquish happily my role as wife, while continuing to do everything I've done to contribute to the life and work we've created together is shockingly unrealistic. When he seemed to be suggesting this, I tried to point out the ridiculous implausibility it all and asked, "So, OK, next year, do I stay in this tent and you move into hers, or does she move into this one and I get my own?" Neither of us laughed.<P>Before he relented on this season, H suggested that he and I could do all the important and "special" stuff, and that he could just bring her out as a token member, to do some "busy work", just so that 1) it doesn't look strange that a student of his is not participating in the work and 2) she doesn't get angry. When I said, grrreat, so you and she would be alone together here again--he suggested he make sure other students and/or team members were always present. I don't think this is viable either. I should note, she is only the second student to join us, others want to come out, and H has had no problem saying no, or suggesting they come out when I'm here alone (in the case of two he doesn't particularly like or value).<P>Your mentioning that your OW was not prepared to do what you do made me smile--oh, yes, that is certainly the case in our situation too! The OW's one season of experience here had nothing to do with the actual work and everything to do with my H trying to win her affection by treating her like royalty. The ONE time she had to do something other than be ushered around by H on a romantic adventure, she was so fidgety, I felt like I was babysitting a toddler . The particular thing in question involved merely being patient and doing things the way they are done here (which is very different than in the States), and it is the sine qua non of getting anything accomplished here. She actually proclaimed that more than anything else, she could not stand being bored and this bored her and she couldn't take it. LOL LOL!!! I knew at that point that there was NO WAY she had what it takes to take over even the basics of the work here. <P>I think you are right, that I should stick it out as long as possible. One thing that helps is that it is definitely to my advantage to keep working jointly for a while, for a number of reasons. I believe I've never mentioned in my posts that, were it not for the whole A mess, my situation re: the work is quite enviable. Of all the people in my field, I am one of very, very few who have the opportunity to stay here and work for the better part of the year. H having the professorial position is what allows me to do that. If I had one of my own, I would have control of finances, etc., but I would be very limited in the time I could spend overseas, as my H is now. For the first seven years of our project, and for two years before that, we lived and worked on another project here together for half the year (and spent the other half in the States).<P>I know it has been very hard for my H not to be able to be here as often and for as long as he would like. In fact, I need to address this issue--I have begun to realize it is probably a big factor in his bizarre behavior towards me and his fears that I want control of the work. He would love to be free to do the work here continuously--but we have each given up something in the arrangement. I have the flexibility to stay in the field--but if he wanted that, he would have to give up what I have chosen not to seek, the power, recognition, financial benefits, etc., that come with professorial status. I have made it clear many times, in the past and now, that if he wants to do that, I would support him wholeheartedly and we would find other ways to be able to carry on the work. I even got the project set up to accept donations directly, so that we are not tied to university support. But I know he needs what he's getting from his prof. position too. It's really something he has to work out for himself.<P>Thank you again for your help, I do appreciate it. Best of luck on rebuilding!! octavia99